• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dota 2 |OT| To Hell and Back and Back to Hell

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Anteo said:
NP is called Tequoia in universe on dota 2 btw.
Click to expand...
As of a few months ago NP officially has no name. They removed all references to Tequoia.

I don't know why they don't just try and make a good faith agreement with Blizzard for the name Furion. The WC3 character is Malfurion, which is different enough and NP is usually called Furion more than NP, which is an anomaly in Dota 2 where the name has never been mentioned and most players probably don't even know its origins.
 
V

ViviOggi

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
It's not shorter when you, guaranteed, have to rephrase whatever you just said to use the actual name of the hero. Pretty much just Gondar, Davion, Furion, POTM and Panda are fairly well known in Dota 2, the rest not at all. (I don't even know what Nessaj or Alleria are. Enigma and Windrunner?).

When using those terms it's more detrimental to everyone to use them, so don't.
Click to expand...

Nessaj = cyka (CK)
 
I

Imp the Dimp

Member
Drow and Sniper are so garbage and underpowered, might as well take them out of the game at this point. There's is no hope that either of them will EVER outcarry any legit carry on the opposing team. A fuckin underfarmed clockwerk can 1on1 either of them at almost any point in the game. Both are useless early, mid and late game and make the game basically 4on5 the moment they are picked. Like, I feel there is such a significant gap between those two and and the rest of the hero pool. I can't think of a fucking thing either of them is good at to save my life.

edit: I suppose they can take towers reasonably well. Provided absolutely nobody shows up to instagib them for free.
 
P

Procarbine

Forever Platinum
Mister Zimbu said:
I can agree that some of the names are better, but you can't expect me to memorize the entire roster's mappings from Dota1 names to Dota2. So don't yell at me if I don't know Jondar is... whoever the hell Jondar is (if there even is one).

That's a pet peeve of online multiplayer games in general though - using other games' terms and expecting people to know what the hell they mean if they're not mentioned in the new game whatsoever.

See also:
- Mez (in MMOs)
- Creep Score (wtf at people who actually use this. Last Hit is easier to type, is what the actual game client uses, and you can actually tell what's being said by its name)
Click to expand...

YOU WERE A TEMPLAR JONDAR

Imp the Dimp said:
Drow and Sniper are so garbage and underpowered, might as well take them out of the game at this point. There's is no hope that either of them will EVER outcarry any legit carry on the opposing team. A fuckin underfarmed clockwerk can 1on1 either of them at almost any point in the game. Both are useless early, mid and late game and make the game basically 4on5 the moment they are picked. Like, I feel there is such a significant gap between those two and and the rest of the hero pool. I can't think of a fucking thing either of them is good at to safe my life.

edit: I suppose they can take towers reasonably well. Provided absolutely nobody shows up to instagib them for free.
Click to expand...

Sniper can be really annoying.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Imp the Dimp said:
Drow and Sniper are so garbage and underpowered, might as well take them out of the game at this point. There's is no hope that either of them will EVER outcarry any legit carry on the opposing team. A fuckin underfarmed clockwerk can 1on1 either of them at almost any point in the game. Both are useless early, mid and late game and make the game basically 4on5 the moment they are picked. Like, I feel there is such a significant gap between those two and and the rest of the hero pool. I can't think of a fucking thing either of them is good at to safe my life.

edit: I suppose they can take towers reasonably well. Provided absolutely nobody shows up to instagib them for free.
Click to expand...

The problem I see with Drow is she either ends up overpowered or becomes a poor man's Viper. Viper just does the same job better. And Viper is a low-mid tier hero... so being worse than that is being pretty bad. I think the aura thing needs to be made into some kind of active and maybe rework her silence so it isn't basically useless.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
Just solo queued a single draft game. Got a Russian on my team. Of course he proceeded to solo mid as Storm Spirit and died 5 times in 10 mins, ending the game at 0-18. Fuck this shit. Next time, no matter what hero I get when I am solo queueing, I am soloing mid myself. At least even if I don't get to farm much, I know I won't feed 95% of the time.
 
I

Imp the Dimp

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
The problem I see with Drow is she either ends up overpowered or becomes a poor man's Viper. Viper just does the same job better. And Viper is a low-mid tier hero... so being worse than that is being pretty bad. I think the aura thing needs to be made into some kind of active and maybe rework her silence so it isn't basically useless.
Click to expand...

They need to rework that ult. It's garbage and serves as a mere farming and pushing tool. I see the concept behind being a glass cannon but Drow and Sniper don't even hit particularly hard and utterly melt when you close the distance on them. They are virtually countered by 75% of the hero pool. Drow actually loses damage when you get into melee range and turns into pillowfisted rubbish. Neither of them have good enough a steroid to make up for how easy it is to feed with them. They just don't make for viable carries.
 
J

JustinBB7

Member
I could finally finish skadi/helm last night on sniper. So funny. (Already had manta). My friend build the same on Huskar as well. Good times. Sucks he still lacks the attack speed to really utilize it though at that point. I was level 21 at the end but still thought I was shooting to slow.
 
C

Calidor

Member
Drow is very situational, maybe as a support on some aura stack strat (ie BM, VS)

Sniper... now THAT's a useless hero, although in hands of a player with great positioning and some farm he can be pain (what hard carry isn't?)
 
S

SamVimes

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
The problem I see with Drow is she either ends up overpowered or becomes a poor man's Viper. Viper just does the same job better. And Viper is a low-mid tier hero... so being worse than that is being pretty bad. I think the aura thing needs to be made into some kind of active and maybe rework her silence so it isn't basically useless.
Click to expand...

They both have an orb that slows, that's really it for the comparison.
 
M

Mister Zimbu

Member
I would argue that Sniper is a good starter hero. When you're in newbie games with other newbies, a Sniper does very well for himself. He just becomes pretty easy to deal with once you get past that stage.
 
I

Imp the Dimp

Member
Mister Zimbu said:
I would argue that Sniper is a good starter hero. When you're in newbie games with other newbies, a Sniper does very well for himself. He just becomes pretty easy to deal with once you get past that stage.
Click to expand...

So are most heroes with merely one or two actives that don't even require aiming. Doesn't really make him any less terrible. I really think Drow is equally bad. Easily the two worst to heroes in the game.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
SamVimes said:
They both have an orb that slows, that's really it for the comparison.
Click to expand...
That happens to be their key niche, one they both share. You play the two of them near identical, they even have similar item builds. Just one does everything much better and his other abilities are better for his job than Drow. Her silence is near useless, her ult is meh and the global aura requires too many levels to become useful and by then the ranged heroes in the game stand up on their own and don't really need the aura anymore. Compared to Viper who can death grib heroes just like Drow, but isn't as squishy, has a much better ult and can do a lot more damage overall. He also lanes much better, being more than a bigger ranged creep at level 1 and doesn't rely on his abilities to rack in the DPS.

What niche does Drow have that Viper doesn't? Both are enemy-slow gankers. When you only have one active apiece, and your other abilities are fairly similar, of course there's similarities. Viper just does it better.
 
R

Ridli

Member
xanavi said:
Guys, I saved my teammates from batrider using x marks the spot. Why did I never think of this before?
Click to expand...

I've also been seeing pro teams start using wisp relocate and tether to stop lassos. It's crazy.

But, if you get the chance try using an X with a venge swap. Can be fun once you get a rank 2 nether swap.
 
P

profit

Member
Just got a compliment from the opposing team for my Sandking play :eek:. Was my first time playin him aswell, fun hero!
Though I wished my team knew to push when we wiped out their entire team, instead of going back to base....
 
A

Artanisix

Member
Drow does not play the same role as Viper. Drow is a monstrous pusher, can solo Roshan early, and shits out raw damage. Viper is anti carry and a solo lane hero. He's fairly tanky and puts out decent damage. If you're playing them the same, you're doing it wrong.
 
C

CarbonatedFalcon

Member
Drow melts to any gap closer. CK, Clock, Slark, Spectre, (and many more). She has a very specific window where she's strong (6 and 11 mainly). After that pretty much any decent carry will be better. The one thing you have to watch out for is the push/split-push - blink and you might be down a tower. But any reasonably coordinated team (and especially at the pro level) won't let that happen.

As it stands (and was mentioned), she could be used in some niche aura strats and some very limited window timing pushes (neither of which are popular in the current meta), but outside of that she's pretty squish and doesn't bring much to the table.

Probably needs another balance pass with at least one if not more skills radically changing. You can't really change Frost Arrows much though because it's her signature skill and one of the most iconic ones at that.
 
S

SamVimes

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
That happens to be their key niche, one they both share. You play the two of them near identical, they even have similar item builds. Just one does everything much better and his other abilities are better for his job than Drow. Her silence is near useless, her ult is meh and the global aura requires too many levels to become useful and by then the ranged heroes in the game stand up on their own and don't really need the aura anymore. Compared to Viper who can death grib heroes just like Drow, but isn't as squishy, has a much better ult and can do a lot more damage overall. He also lanes much better, being more than a bigger ranged creep at level 1 and doesn't rely on his abilities to rack in the DPS.

What niche does Drow have that Viper doesn't? Both are enemy-slow gankers. When you only have one active apiece, and your other abilities are fairly similar, of course there's similarities. Viper just does it better.
Click to expand...
In what way their other abilities are fairly similar? Not a single one of their abilities share anything besides again their orbs. And if you're playing Viper in competitive you're gonna have a completely different build than a Drow 99% of the cases, even if pubbies like to get a shadowblade manta on every agi hero Viper actually works much better as a mek-pipe carrier.
 
A

Anteo

Member
CarbonatedFalcon said:
Drow melts to any gap closer. CK, Clock, Slark, Spectre, (and many more). She has a very specific window where she's strong (6 and 11 mainly). After that pretty much any decent carry will be better. The one thing you have to watch out for is the push/split-push - blink and you might be down a tower. But any reasonably coordinated team (and especially at the pro level) won't let that happen.
Click to expand...

Any reasonably coordinated team will find a way for that to happen.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
SamVimes said:
In what way their other abilities are fairly similar? Not a single one of their abilities share anything besides again their orbs. And if you're playing Viper in competitive you're gonna have a completely different build than a Drow 99% of the cases, even if pubbies like to get a shadowblade manta on every agi hero Viper actually works much better as a mek-pipe carrier.
Click to expand...

I don't have any experience other than random all pick games where Drow and Viper are basically interchangeable (shadow blade in > slow lock a person out of position > shadow blade out). And Drow isn't really picked in competitive at all, so it's hard to see any uses in that realm, leaving you with an impression she's Viper-lite.

Drow wasn't balanced for competitive play. Probably the only hero in the entire game that was nerfed due to pubs, rather than the buff to be used in comp, which is what she actually needed.

I think Spirit Breaker is on the cusp of that too. He needs just a slight buff to be really something cool in comp, but any slight buff might make him just not fun at all to face in pub games, leading to a Drow situation.
 
P

Procarbine

Forever Platinum
balladofwindfishes said:
I don't have any experience other than random all pick games where Drow and Viper are basically interchangeable (shadow blade in > slow lock a person out of position > shadow blade out). And Drow isn't really picked in competitive at all, so it's hard to see any uses in that realm, leaving you with an impression she's Viper-lite.

Drow wasn't balanced for competitive play. Probably the only hero in the entire game that was nerfed due to pubs, rather than the buff to be used in comp, which is what she actually needed.

I think Spirit Breaker is on the cusp of that too. He needs just a slight buff to be really something cool in comp, but any slight buff might make him just not fun at all to face in pub games, leading to a Drow situation.
Click to expand...

He's already in comp, and is fine.

Look at what milk said a few posts up. They're different heroes, there are a ton of heroes that can just shadowblade in and kill someone that's out of position.
 
A

Arkanius

Member
I still stand by my theory that a Mask of Madness Sniper if so much fun due all the minibashing and damage output.

With good positioning, most people won't even notice they are being hit by a Sniper in a team fight.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Procarbine said:
He's already in comp, and is fine.

Look at what milk said a few posts up. They're different heroes, there are a ton of heroes that can just shadowblade in and kill someone that's out of position.
Click to expand...
Being picked once or twice to try something new isn't "being in comp." He was picked once in TI3 for example. That's sitting with Brood and Warlock and just slightly above Meepo. That's not doing fine, that's the lowest of the low tier.
 
K

KingKong

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Being picked once or twice to try something new isn't "being in comp." He was picked once in TI3 for example. That's sitting with Brood and Warlock and just slightly above Meepo. That's not doing fine, that's the lowest of the low tier.
Click to expand...

imo he's like Riki where if you do buff him to be in comp games he's just going to be so annoying in public games
 
C

CarbonatedFalcon

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Being picked once or twice to try something new isn't "being in comp." He was picked once in TI3 for example. That's sitting with Brood and Warlock and just slightly above Meepo. That's not doing fine, that's the lowest of the low tier.
Click to expand...

The hardest thing is fitting him into a lineup. He's far from the ideal hard carry farmer, and he wouldn't fare too well in most mid matchups (as well as being obvious when he's gone). Offlane is alright I suppose. Otherwise you run him as aggressive support (even though there are better choices for that role) paired with a Furion or something.

You can slot him as a 1 if you plan to finish the game in less than 30 minutes with a very aggressive strategy.
 
A

Artanisix

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Being picked once or twice to try something new isn't "being in comp." He was picked once in TI3 for example. That's sitting with Brood and Warlock and just slightly above Meepo. That's not doing fine, that's the lowest of the low tier.
Click to expand...

Are we only grading heroes based on their showing in TI3? Do you think this is a good metric for passing out nerfs and buffs?
 
K

Kenaras

Member
Regardless of whether some heroes who are rarely/never picked in competitive are actually viable there, I see no reason why every hero needs to be balanced around competitive play. There's over 100 heroes in the pool, more than enough to provide a varied metagame. If a handful of them are stomping pubs but never used in competitive, the game as a whole is healthier than it would be if those pubstompers were buffed. As long as the majority of the pool is balanced around competitive play it isn't an issue.

Ideally the pubstompers would see nerfs to their pub dominance combined with buffs to their competitive viability, but easier said than done.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Artanisix said:
Are we only grading heroes based on their showing in TI3? Do you think this is a good metric for passing out nerfs and buffs?
Click to expand...

He's not often picked. TI3 is just reaffirming this, a data point in a pretty obvious trend.

Unless you can show me some other statistics that shows Spirit Breaker being picked fairly often. Because all the places I've looked, the data from the last patch shows him being picked more often than before, but still with good friends like Drow, Tusk, Meepo and Brood, unless you also believe those heroes are fine.
 
A

Artanisix

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
He's not often picked. TI3 is just reaffirming this, a data point in a pretty obvious trend.

Unless you can show me some other statistics that shows Spirit Breaker being picked fairly often. Because all the places I've looked, the data from the last patch shows him being picked more often than before, but still with good friends like Drow, Tusk, Meepo and Brood, unless you also believe those heroes are fine.
Click to expand...

The point is that an unpopular hero is not necessarily a bad hero. You're staring at raw pick ban statistics and making skin~deep judgments about the worth of a hero. Time and time again it is shown heroes appear and disappear with little to no changes. It's not as simple as looking at a spreadsheet and balancing in that way is terrible.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
labor day no patch

like 1.09 or anbokr(same person) said his cast points are awful. I wouldn't mind seeing his night vision increased as well. Maybe make it so his E can be activated for 1800 aoe flying vision or something. It's just really annoying to not be able to cast rupture because of its garbage cast point and then lose vision. I don't like his proposed reworks but I think those are old, rupture is pretty unique and should stay.

where has anuxi been I haven't seen her post anything for awhile. nvm looks its only been 5 days, this is stalker territory. I just miss the pretty sets :(.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Artanisix said:
The point is that an unpopular hero is not necessarily a bad hero. You're staring at raw pick ban statistics and making skin~deep judgments about the worth of a hero. Time and time again it is shown heroes appear and disappear with little to no changes. It's not as simple as looking at a spreadsheet and balancing in that way is terrible.
Click to expand...
Well what makes you believe SB is fine?
 
T

toastyToast

Member
After getting into the beta well over a year ago I think I've finally caught the bug. Played about 10 hours since yesterday.

I did 10 matches with limited roster (as part of tutorial) and got somewhat used to Dragon Knight. I'd like to try someone a little more exotic (?) but still simple to use. I've messed around with the heroes in the OP at one point or another and wasn't feeling them too much.
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
Z

Zeth

Member
This #cef_error_header-6 thing is killing me. From googling it seems like more people are experiencing it permanently possibly since the Aug 28 update. Some posts on the dev forum but no solutions. I've tried everything: cache integrity, reinstalled game and Steam, firewall and antivirus.

Curious if anyone here has experienced it outside of just intermittent glitches when under heavy load. Basically none of the network dependent tabs in the client work; Store, Blog, Library, etc. Luckily I can still buy items from the web client I guess :p
 
P

Procarbine

Forever Platinum
Schweinehund said:
labor day no patch

like 1.09 or anbokr(same person) said his cast points are awful. I wouldn't mind seeing his night vision increased as well. Maybe make it so his E can be activated for 1800 aoe flying vision or something. It's just really annoying to not be able to cast rupture because of its garbage cast point and then lose vision. I don't like his proposed reworks but I think those are old, rupture is pretty unique and should stay.

where has anuxi been I haven't seen her post anything for awhile. nvm looks its only been 5 days, this is stalker territory. I just miss the pretty sets :(.
Click to expand...

I said that you jerk.
 
S

sixghost

Member
Do you guys think that Disruptor would be too strong if he could cast Glimpse on teammates? That would be fun as hell to use when teammates are diving towers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

The Verge: We played Valve’s secret new shooter: Deadlock
Opinion News 2 3 4
199
11K
near replied
Deadlock |OT|
|OT| Community 2
71
4K
Herbspiceguy replied
Coming Soon to Game Pass: Ara: History Untold, Frostpunk 2, and Wargroove 2
News Hype
46
1K
BigLee74 replied
The Legend Of Heroes: Trails Through Daybreak | Review Thread
Analysis Review 2 3 4 5 6
267
14K
Sept Terrion Of Nothing replied
Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes | Review Thread
Analysis Review 2 3
143
11K
BadBurger replied
Top Bottom