veloxStrix
Banned
Trying to get into DotA. I now understand why this game is so hard to learn. The bot AI is complete garbage. :l I would rather just be shit playing with other people than put up with trying to play support with bots.
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Dota 2 |OT12| A Safe Place For Your Sociopathic Behaviors.
- Thread starter Dreams-Visions
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Gentle Rodriguez
Member
What's stopping you? I played 3 bot games before I realized it wasn't going to help me that much and never went back(unless I want to practice a hero I've never played before).
misses bull
Banned
Bots won't help you 100% learn this game. If you wanna get into the game you should look up tutorials on the internet about dota itself
this is a pretty good universal guide
Yep. Avoid bot matches at all cost. Don't be afraid of being shitty and losing games. Just mute assholes and play against players. Follow in-game guides until you get comfortable with heroes. Most guides have notes on items and abilities that help you understand why they're good in certain situations.
Bots are fine for getting a grasp on the basic mechanics of the game, but they're really no substitute for queueing with people against people.
If you feel comfortable enough with movement, skills, last hitting, items, all of that jazz, it's time to move to queues.
If you feel comfortable enough with movement, skills, last hitting, items, all of that jazz, it's time to move to queues.
veloxStrix
Banned
It's not that I thought bots would help me learn the game completely, but I should be able to get a decent feel for each of the heroes without too much pressure and still be able to have fun doing it. But, yeah, definitely moving to real games.
call_kotaku
Member
I played a bot game to level 16 with every hero available at the time before I queued my first actual match
I'm thorough like that
I'm thorough like that
What bot setting are you playing on?
Hard might be better, the AI actually shows some semblence of teamwork.
Have you tried co-op vs bots?
Beardz
Member
Another way of learning some of the skills is playing with Rubick, that's the way I did it.
SecretMoblin
Member
bot games are fine and plenty fun with friends if you're just looking for basic mechanics stuff
it's self-evident that bot AI in a game like this is going to be trash, so just treat it like it's a different mode entirely and practice using spells and mess around so you can figure out range, movement speed, last hitting, pathing, warding/vision, etc.
it's self-evident that bot AI in a game like this is going to be trash, so just treat it like it's a different mode entirely and practice using spells and mess around so you can figure out range, movement speed, last hitting, pathing, warding/vision, etc.
Yeah, you might as well just play unranked games. Besides, the people you will get matched will be just as new to the game, or just bad. Whether you're playing against a new player or a pro though, playing against humans is completely different from playing against bots.
D
Deleted member 77995
Unconfirmed Member
If you play on US West you're welcome to join my group of friends. We have some fairly new players so taking on an another noobie would be great.
Edit: username is whiskeystrike
I saw this shit about that 1k team vs 5 random 5ks and it seems 5k players are put on like the pedestal, even now after mmr inflation, leshrac spammers, troll spammers etc... so if you guys got any questions about dota but aren't hero/item/build specific i'll answer them for the next while cuz i got nothing to do. I'll give an example or something to get started:
5k players make many big mistakes and small mistakes, sometimes we recognize a mistake as we are making it, other times we don't. We fail to punish mistakes but we also capitalize on mistakes. We get our couriers killed, we go 0-10 and have bad games, we theorycraft terrible builds and lose 8/10 games with it before we finally admit its terrible. We don't cs perfectly in lane, we block camps sometimes, we don't get every stack attempt off, we misuse runes, we accidently cancel tps. 1.09's courier useage is fucking atrocious and he clicks the buttons (saw it on his stream), but at least he hotkeys to his hero, I just double click the portrait. But what makes us better than 4ks or 3ks is kind of hard to explain, we can generalize "we farm better, we dont get caught as much" etc... Think of going to lane mid and you face a guy, mmr not important, and you destroy him and you think "man this guy is fuckin terrible" and you see every mistake he makes. That's what it's like when we play 3k players, 4k players, other 5k players sometimes.
So if you got questions about what it's like for people to come up with this bizarre pedestal that being 5k is like the end-all be-all of dota, lemme know and i'll answer them best I can, because really what happens is you end up in a 4.7k average game and make 1 mistake and 9 other players go "are you really 5k?"
5k players make many big mistakes and small mistakes, sometimes we recognize a mistake as we are making it, other times we don't. We fail to punish mistakes but we also capitalize on mistakes. We get our couriers killed, we go 0-10 and have bad games, we theorycraft terrible builds and lose 8/10 games with it before we finally admit its terrible. We don't cs perfectly in lane, we block camps sometimes, we don't get every stack attempt off, we misuse runes, we accidently cancel tps. 1.09's courier useage is fucking atrocious and he clicks the buttons (saw it on his stream), but at least he hotkeys to his hero, I just double click the portrait. But what makes us better than 4ks or 3ks is kind of hard to explain, we can generalize "we farm better, we dont get caught as much" etc... Think of going to lane mid and you face a guy, mmr not important, and you destroy him and you think "man this guy is fuckin terrible" and you see every mistake he makes. That's what it's like when we play 3k players, 4k players, other 5k players sometimes.
So if you got questions about what it's like for people to come up with this bizarre pedestal that being 5k is like the end-all be-all of dota, lemme know and i'll answer them best I can, because really what happens is you end up in a 4.7k average game and make 1 mistake and 9 other players go "are you really 5k?"
shira
Member
As a support I ganked mid at 3:00, 6:00 but I have shit gold and shit levels. Since one of the ganks failed.
What should my next objective be.
~3.1k MMR
what's the most prominent and/or glaring mistake(s) a team playing from behind makes in your pubs
? that's a lie, everytime i've laned against 1.09 he has perfect cs mid and perfect denies and has killed me 3 times by the 7th minute
soak xp wherever you can. Stack a few jungle camps and soak those while the other support can soak mid or top, whichever lane is empty for the stack clearing hero. Or while that hero clears the stacks you set up, you can soak xp in his lane. Also depends on the support, level 6 on an AA is a lot more important than lvl 6 on a dazzle.
forcing fights over and over again before trying to farm up a game changing item, constantly losing the fights and never getting your item. Something like being ahead slightly, losing 2 big fights, being 300gold off a bkb for your safelaner and mid and forcing another terrible fight, losing it and losing a rosh + more to snowball them well ahead of you. From behind generally looking for a fast safe pick by splitting the map for farm and defensively warding your own jungle. Also as a support at that point sitting behind a core farming your own jungle is also useful.
Are you really 5.9k?
rofl no, i'm trying tho i've gained 25 or more mmr a day since i started playing ranked on 1 of my accounts up to 5.5k now
If you're playing a ganking style hero, how do you know when you need to sit back and farm instead of going for pickoffs?
also, saying "GG afk mid end please" after 1 bad fight then feeding couriers or not leaving fountain and blaming every1 in a game where 1 good fight turns it around. That's pretty common too
honestly, I don't always know. Depends how important the next level is or the next item is. Am i going to sit in lane to farm 400gold to finish my treads on a spirit breaker? No probably not. If i'm 1 creep from level 2, 3, 5 am I going to wait to gank for that level? Most likely yes unless I am needed for a defensive tp/counter-gank.
I have been that guy on a team up 10-1 in kills at 10 minutes be 2-0-6 on spirit breaker yet be level 4. It happens. I guess what I mean is that just because somebody is 5k they are not infallible and know everything like people make us out to be.
shira
Member
A carry clearly needs a key item like BKB vs Zeus or MKB vs PA. But they shrug it off and make other bullshit items like double moonshards or refresher.
Now what?
Also in MMR match you notice one player has terrible MMR compared to the rest. Is it viable to just keep killing that player off
Now what?
Also in MMR match you notice one player has terrible MMR compared to the rest. Is it viable to just keep killing that player off
misses bull
Banned
who is your favorite hero
players buying bad items happens, even at 5k+ I have seen terrible builds, I have seen terrible builds out of 6k players as well. Shit happens, not every1 wins all of their games even when you play amazingly well. Tell them their item is shit, I'm no saint and I've been put in low prio countless times for excessive ammounts of reports.
idk you can't always tell if sum1s mmr is lower but you can generally notice the worst player/easiest kill on the other team. Sometimes their 6k player is playing lich, and although he is good he is still a relatively easy hero to kill. That's what storm was all about for a long time especially mmr climbers like Blitz who would just jungle a bloodstone then continuously kill the weakest link over and over for charges/farm. Sometimes they got baited and lost, most of the time they won.
Was alchemist, even before this big buff, I was top 20 alch on dotabuff since those top 100 ratings came out. Maybe TB but i haven't played him since his change. If I had to say my best hero probably alchemist, the hero I have the most fun with is slark.
call_kotaku
Member
What do I do when I pick a core and then the other 4 players on my team all pick super greedy cores too? Do I resign myself to playing roaming support Spectre or do I do the salt parade mid/top and fight for CS against my teammates?
But honest question, how do you determine good smoke usage? I find that it's really rare at unranked 3k and I only use it for rosh attempts. I honestly have no idea what to do with smokes.
Saw that yesterday. A friend asked me to help him get out of low prio and it was full of that, bloodseeker abandoning at 5 min because he died twice to neutrals, disruptor calling gg when the score is 3-5 because ursa got aegis, list goes on.
Don't think 5k players are perfect, but its a good source of knowledge. Like what you said about laning vs a lower mmr player. Its harder to notice when you do small mistakes that don't get you killed instantly unless someone better than you points it out.
when i buy smokes, I generally do it to solo smoke as SB when i'm charging someone and I believe their lane to be warded. Smoking 2-3 heroes into roshan while not all goign missing, and in the late game when you are ahead slightly and know you can take a fight if you get a good jump smoking behind 1-2 teammates who are pushing and counter initiating are relatively safe smokes, better than 5man smoking for a pick, forcing them into your pick.
Join the salt parade brother, run down mid and feed to get to the next game faster, try to convince 1 of them to support with a hero like sven or wk which can support cuz they have stuns. Most of the time when this shit happens in 5k+ games you end up just dual offlaning with 2 cores, dual safelaning with 2 cores and hoping 2 of your 5 cores get some farm and you don't lose before 20 minutes.
yeah i was hoping for more questions about why I think 5k players are different from any other mmr more than specific what to do in X situation or Y, because honestly I don't always know. Or differences I can spot between different MMR's
SecretMoblin
Member
last night I played with a roaming support ck it worked well tbh
btw is it still more efficient for certain junglers to sacrifice to neutrals at a certain point or no
btw is it still more efficient for certain junglers to sacrifice to neutrals at a certain point or no
Alright then, how would you describe each bracket in terms of playstyle,greed, common mistakes,etc
Like for example when I was 2k, It was basically no one picks support until 2.6k+
Bloodseeker every match
(the 2k players don't buy detection is a myth however, they buy tons of dust or the mid/carry buys a 10 min gem if they really need detection).
random/bizarre niche picks can work at all levels
depends on the jungler, right now I don't think sacrificing lanes for jungle greed is worth it, so i'd say no jungler is probably the meta right now.
SecretMoblin
Member
encan'tress is worth it in literally any role 100% of the time
the 5k LIES
the 5k LIES
these are similar so i'll answer them as one
There are 5ks with terrible mechanics, I have bad mechanics, I am bad at controlling the lane mid, I miss cs under towers. I have seen 3ks cs under tower better than me, and I have seen 4ks control a lane better than I do. A huge difference I see, especially in games where I am the only 5k on my team and everybody else is 4k is that my 4k core, even high 4k ~4.8k has no idea when to farm or how to farm. Other team is pushing a lane with aegis top, all 5 on the map, we have a t2 but we know they will go for t3 after and my Safelaner or Midlaner is sitting in base waiting for the fight. He should be bot/mid pressuring a tower, farming a lane, fuck even in jungle hes more effective getting some extra gold. This is a HUGE mistake I see, waiting for a fight and not farming because of it. I mean shit even if you pressure a tower and get picked by 2 heroes tping back YOU HAVE STOPPED THEIR PUSH and hopefully got enough gold to buy a piece of an item.
playing on a low mmr account, 1k players, 2k players buy the right items. They just buy them slow, they run at heroes and not cs, they cs and get auto attacked by heroes and die. A lot of dota is knowing who you can kill, how you can kill them, when you can kill them, and how you can escape after killing them. People also often forget that forcing a defensive tp or 2 even if you die and dont get a kill, frees up the other 2 lanes for a push, gank, farming, and other greed. Sometimes I think i can manfight a hero and they got an item on a courier that i didn't spot because i checked their items 30 seconds before engaging him and not just before going in, or i check right after i initiated. I make this mistake, but I make it less often than a 4k does but more often than most 6k's if that makes sense.
i've been playing dota since reign of chaos, but i took many years break
the last time i played dota1 slark was the newest hero. I played a bit of hon for a few months some time in 2010 and I got my dota2 beta key in mid 2011 but didn't use it until late 2011. I only played a few hundred games from 2011-2012 and picked up in late 2012 until now. I calibrated at 4.4k and never feel below 4.2k
I've never thought to myself that i want to improve, I just played with friends in a stack, played solo and after like 4 months of not playing ranked after calibrating i climbed to 4.8k, then saw nel accepted 5.1k for vouches so i grinded to that, stopped, then when they raised it to 5.3k grinded to 5.3. I havent played ranked on my main account sicne then but I play it on a few smurfs for fun.
improving is mostly subconscious where you make a mistake, get punished for it and then kind of muscle memory know that in that situation in the future not to do it again.
I can tell you taht watching arteezy and stuff zoom around the map is insane and gives me a headache, so it's nothing like that. I check items more than BSJ though and try to always check courier when its visible
generally i check the items of core heroes when they show on the map, especially if im going to gank them. I also ping them as much as possible big items like bkb etc when im core or support. Ideally in stacks my support friends check items and I only have to check when i go for a solo kill. I try to check the map after every 2 or 3 cs but honestly i kind of just peripheral vision it. I care more about who is missing then who is showing. for example a storm or nyx not showing is more dangerous than when they do show. Good illusion rune users know this haha. A lot of awareness is kind of like what time of the game, what items are in play, what heroes in play more than just knowing where they are. Even with vision is it safe for me to farm beside their t2 when they have a WR with aghs, probably not. Is it bad map awareness to do that, not necessarily its more bad game sense.
i guess its like driving as you get used to checking mirrors, you don't really think about checking it anymore you just get a feel for it.
nope, if i did i would probably be better. Most of the time i know it was a mistake and why. Even sometimes when a mistake turns out to work I still know it was a mistake. 99% of dota is trial and error. The reason pros practice 1v1's and stuff hundred of times with each other that you don't hear about is to practice the limits of a hero vs another hero, the nuances in the lane because knowing 1 more nuance than your opponent to win a lane can snowball crushingly.
which is why watching pro games, especially in player perspective can be very useful if you are paying attention to what they are doing and trying to think about why given the information they know vs what you as a spectator know. I don't always do this but what helped me a lot was watching players jungle farming patterns and how they ended up back near a lane to farm it rather than lose out of that opportunity from the tower clearing the creeps.
i guess i mostly feel like if i can't see why something happened the way it did at the time, then rewatching my replay isn't going to help me, even if it shows me how frequently i make certain mistakes
interesting replies anyway, i had kinda suspected that the major differentiator was situational awareness over pure mechanical ability
although it does make me think i'll be 2k trash forever
interesting replies anyway, i had kinda suspected that the major differentiator was situational awareness over pure mechanical ability
although it does make me think i'll be 2k trash forever
i guess i mostly feel like if i can't see why something happened the way it did at the time, then rewatching my replay isn't going to help me, even if it shows me how frequently i make certain mistakes
interesting replies anyway, i had kinda suspected that the major differentiator was situational awareness over pure mechanical ability
although it does make me think i'll be 2k trash forever
yeah i guess dota is probably 99% situational awareness, however there are players who try to improve, play 4000 games and will never make it higher than 3k flat. There is an amount of innate talent required, doesn't mean you can never make your way up, you can it just may be harder.
misses bull
Banned
well i don't like to boast but i have gained nearly 120 mmr since i calibrated
Well I lost 150 mmr recently
goml
D
Deleted member 77995
Unconfirmed Member
i guess i mostly feel like if i can't see why something happened the way it did at the time, then rewatching my replay isn't going to help me, even if it shows me how frequently i make certain mistakes
interesting replies anyway, i had kinda suspected that the major differentiator was situational awareness over pure mechanical ability
although it does make me think i'll be 2k trash forever
Trying to force learning in-game is probably one of the hardest and most counter-productive things you could do. You just gotta make your decisions and roll with it, reflect aftewards. In Dota there is always a level of inherent risk with what you do and sometimes you'll absolutely do the "correct thing" and get punished for it because that's what your opposition expected.
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