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Dota 2 |OT12| A Safe Place For Your Sociopathic Behaviors.

I

Ikuu

Had his dog run over by Blizzard's CEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alDaBwuRxKQ

mjlol.png


This video is hilarious, also says he has no time for people who want him to put himself in the shoes of a minority.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Honestly makes perfect sense the CSGO community has adopted thorin. Twat gets forcibly removed from basically every other scene and then one of the most cancerous competitive scenes with any relevance takes him in.

CSGO is still good, but seriously the community is twice as bad as dota
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
TUSR said:
I actually have no idea who thorin is
Click to expand...

He's the scrawny ginger guy that seems to find a way on to every CSGO analyst desk despite only being marginally more insightful than I am.

Oh, he also used to do stuff in the starcraft and league communities before people pretty much got fed up with his BS (including bigotry, generally rudeness, interviews constructed just to start drama, etc.).
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I think of thorking when I see thorin.

Both are racist and toxic, it's easy to get them mixed up.
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
i mean thorin isn't really wrong saying it should be based on talent not gender, or that if you didn't have the drive to be a role model you wouldn't make it or whatever as a woman.
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
Sanjay said:
It should be based on talent not gender like Soe, she has talent
bts_lina.gif
Click to expand...

not just talent but effort/contribution

like for a lazy example, sheever vs slacks filling a interviewef or host/hostess role
sheever has way better rapport with the players and shit like that ofc she'd be an obvious choice over him, not because shes a woman but just because she'd be a better fit
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Auteezy said:
i mean thorin isn't really wrong saying it should be based on talent not gender, or that if you didn't have the drive to be a role model you wouldn't make it or whatever as a woman.
Click to expand...

Actually, he is very wrong about it. When a white dude gets a job, his qualifications are rarely debated. When someone else does, you better bet they are. Every study I have seen has shown that diversity makes workplaces better. If Valve is interested in growing their audience, they need to grow their talent pool.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Auteezy said:
not just talent but effort/contribution

like for a lazy example, sheever vs slacks filling a interviewef or host/hostess role
sheever has way better rapport with the players and shit like that ofc she'd be an obvious choice over him, not because shes a woman but just because she'd be a better fit
Click to expand...

Before Sheever started showing up at Valve events, people argued that she had no talent. At Ti4 people said she sucked and the only reason she was there was because she was a woman. And now, partially because Valve gave her a chance to grow, she is accepted by the community.
 
I

Ikuu

Had his dog run over by Blizzard's CEO
BlastProcessing said:
Actually, he is very wrong about it. When a white dude gets a job, his qualifications are rarely debated. When someone else does, you better bet they are. Every study I have seen has shown that diversity makes workplaces better. If Valve is interested in growing their audience, they need to grow their talent pool.
Click to expand...

Valve are not responsible for the talent that is hired, ESL are running the event.
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
BlastProcessing said:
Actually, he is very wrong about it. When a white dude gets a job, his qualifications are rarely debated. When someone else does, you better bet they are. Every study I have seen has shown that diversity makes workplaces better. If Valve is interested in growing their audience, they need to grow their talent pool.
Click to expand...

so by inviting underqualified people, they can grow their audience and create a better workplace? the onus isn't on valve to give handouts to people for being a minority or female. It seems valve is content to leave casting/stats and that jazz up to a grass roots development level, and then cherry picking ones they want representing them at their events. I'm sure if you looked at Valve as an employer they meet diversity standards ethnically, racially, and in gender.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Auteezy said:
so by inviting underqualified people, they can grow their audience and create a better workplace? the onus isn't on valve to give handouts to people for being a minority or female. It seems valve is content to leave casting/stats and that jazz up to a grass roots development level, and then cherry picking ones they want representing them at their events. I'm sure if you looked at Valve as an employer they meet diversity standards ethnically, racially, and in gender.
Click to expand...

The crux of the thing is what does "qualified" mean. Because that term has been a dog whistle for discrimination since Jim Crow. You choose the person that will best help the group get better. Hiring a woman is no more a handout than hiring a man.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Auteezy said:
so by inviting underqualified people, they can grow their audience and create a better workplace? the onus isn't on valve to give handouts to people for being a minority or female. It seems valve is content to leave casting/stats and that jazz up to a grass roots development level, and then cherry picking ones they want representing them at their events. I'm sure if you looked at Valve as an employer they meet diversity standards ethnically, racially, and in gender.
Click to expand...

That's exactly how affirmative action works if you look at it from a straight white dude's perspective. Thinking how diversity initiatives give underrepresented people a unique unfair advantage (reverse-racism, etc) is just being blind to institutional advantages non-minorities constantly benefit from.
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
BlastProcessing said:
The crux of the thing is what does "qualified" mean. Because that term has been a dog whistle for discrimination since Jim Crow. You choose the person that will best help the group get better. Hiring a woman is no more a handout than hiring a man.
Click to expand...

And are there any female casters deserving of being invited over any of the invited casters? The easiest one to point out attending the event that is "Replaceable" would be ODPixel since he's the newest, but he also has a large fanbase. There just isn't a high enough quality female caster to breakthrough the grassroots level YET that deserves an invite over anyone who was invited. Nobody makes a big fuss that there hasn't been a black person invited to cast... Same argument.
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
call_kotaku said:
That's exactly how affirmative action works if you look at it from a straight white dude's perspective. Thinking how diversity initiatives give underrepresented people a unique unfair advantage (reverse-racism, etc) is just being blind to institutional advantages non-minorities constantly benefit from.
Click to expand...

I have no problems with increased spending in school systems and public welfare benefits to minorities in low-income/troubled areas. I think that hiring should be done based on qualifications and not race or gender. For college applications this is a different story where you can feasibly argue that achieving a 3.3 GPA in an inner-city school requires the same amount of work/dedication if not more than a 3.8 in a fancy private school based on the social pressures placed upon an inner-city student who wants to achieve in a tough area school.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Auteezy said:
And are there any female casters deserving of being invited over any of the invited casters? The easiest one to point out attending the event that is "Replaceable" would be ODPixel since he's the newest, but he also has a large fanbase. There just isn't a high enough quality female caster to breakthrough the grassroots level YET that deserves an invite over anyone who was invited. Nobody makes a big fuss that there hasn't been a black person invited to cast... Same argument.
Click to expand...

Not just casters remember.

Also the bolded is a pretty odd argument. Just because you can get away with a lack of diversity in one area, doesn't magically exonerate you in another. How does that make sense?

Anyway, this is a Dota topic so I am done with you. Anybody who wants to can read our posts and make up their own minds. You can have the last word on this.
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
BlastProcessing said:
Not just casters remember.

Also the bolded is a pretty odd argument. Just because you can get away with a lack of diversity in one area, doesn't magically exonerate you in another. How does that make sense?

Anyway, this is a Dota topic so I am done with you. Anybody who wants to can read our posts and make up their own minds. You can have the last word on this.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it exonerates them, I'm saying nobody has argued for racial issues in casting the way there is a discussion about genders in casting, at least from what I have read. However I think that as this discussion is about fairness, it would only be fair to further delve into and examine as to why there are no or few minority casters.

BlastProcessing said:
Before Sheever started showing up at Valve events, people argued that she had no talent. At Ti4 people said she sucked and the only reason she was there was because she was a woman. And now, partially because Valve gave her a chance to grow, she is accepted by the community.
Click to expand...

And she earned that right to go. Who since then has put in the amount of effort/work to earn that right? Maybe at TI6 we will see Llama, who knows, but right now for this major it is safe to say a female has not earned it apart from Sheever. It would be a bad precedent to set for Valve events if they were bringing in a "token" female or "token" minority. All casters get the same shot through grassroots and self-promoting and digging for casting scraps to work their way up. People may insult a female caster for being female and not a male caster for being male, but there's a million other things they have found to insult male casters for for example: Ball sniffing. Coming up as a caster is a meatgrinder that tests your patience and your thick skin as much as your talent.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Just to be clear, I don't necessarily "blame" ESL for not having women on their panel, since we don't know the details of how they put the panel together.

Assholes like Thorin parroting gamergate talking points do need to recognized as toxic, though.

Auteezy said:
I have no problems with increased spending in school systems and public welfare benefits to minorities in low-income/troubled areas. I think that hiring should be done based on qualifications and not race or gender. For college applications this is a different story where you can feasibly argue that achieving a 3.3 GPA in an inner-city school requires the same amount of work/dedication if not more than a 3.8 in a fancy private school based on the social pressures placed upon an inner-city student who wants to achieve in a tough area school.
Click to expand...

There are loads of studies that prove pretty substantial amounts of bias in the hiring process, and lots of general institutional and social obstacles exist which further narrows the pool of minority applicants before they get to applying for jobs. It's most obvious in the tech industry (lower numbers of women studying STEM subjects, even fewer get hired even though they have the same qualifications, minorities are less likely to be promoted to management positions after getting hired, etc). It's inaccurate to narrow it down to the educational system, or try to base it on quantifiable qualifications, since that's relevant in very few industries (especially esports).
 
Y

yarden24

Member
Auteezy said:
And she earned that right to go. Who since then has put in the amount of effort/work to earn that right? Maybe at TI6 we will see Llama, who knows, but right now for this major it is safe to say a female has not earned it apart from Sheever. It would be a bad precedent to set for Valve events if they were bringing in a "token" female or "token" minority. All casters get the same shot through grassroots and self-promoting and digging for casting scraps to work their way up. People may insult a female caster for being female and not a male caster for being male, but there's a million other things they have found to insult male casters for for example: Ball sniffing. Coming up as a caster is a meatgrinder that tests your patience and your thick skin as much as your talent.
Click to expand...

Sheever didn't deserve to get the invite back then, certainly not more then other male casters, she got it because she was female, but because she got prefferational treatment back in the day, she has improved and has become a legitimate personality in the scene

That said, there is no one that I know off right now that is female and is at least trying as hard as Sheever was back then to get into the field
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
call_kotaku said:
Just to be clear, I don't necessarily "blame" ESL for not having women on their panel, since we don't know the details of how they put the panel together.

Assholes like Thorin parroting gamergate talking points do need to recognized as toxic, though.



There are loads of studies that prove pretty substantial amounts of bias in the hiring process, and lots of general institutional and social obstacles exist which further narrows the pool of minority applicants before they get to applying for jobs. It's most obvious in the tech industry (lower numbers of women studying STEM subjects, even fewer get hired even though they have the same qualifications, minorities are less likely to be promoted to management positions after getting hired, etc). It's inaccurate to narrow it down to the educational system, or try to base it on quantifiable qualifications, since that's relevant in very few industries (especially esports).
Click to expand...

I just brought it up in education regarding colleges because I know that is a contentious point among some groups where minorities are getting in with lower gpa's and extra curriculars. My argument is that relative to the upper class/well-off person the lower GPA is just as impressive given their circumstances. I just don't really think in this case of Casters/On Camera talent with the Major that you can argue about unfair hiring practices or sexism on Valve/ESL's end.

As an upper-class, unemployed white male with a from a top 25 school, I wish there was a large enough hiring bias that could get even me a job :( I guess my lazyness has trumped all

yarden24 said:
Sheever didn't deserve to get the invite back then, certainly not more then other male casters, she got it because she was female, but because she got prefferational treatment back in the day, she has improved and has become a legitimate personality in the scene

That said, there is no one that I know off right now that is female and is at least trying as hard as Sheever was back then to get into the field
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you remember but from like TI2 all the way to TI4 sheever would be on /r/dota2 posting daily match threads of pro games, and streams to follow/find them on, this was before the match ticker on the sidebar. She casted a shitload of european tier 2 and 3 teams like random ass starladder russian qualifiers and stuff to get out there. She definitely put herself out there for about a year and a half if not more before She got invited to TI4, sheever was around long before the bulldog memeing and probably 1/3rd of the vocal player pool. People seem to forget this or be uninformed about how much she actually did earlier on.
 
Q

Quesa

Member
Auteezy said:
I'm not saying it exonerates them, I'm saying nobody has argued for racial issues in casting the way there is a discussion about genders in casting, at least from what I have read. However I think that as this discussion is about fairness, it would only be fair to further delve into and examine as to why there are no or few minority casters.
Click to expand...

This is dodging the point. Yes, that discussion also needs to happen. That doesn't make this one any less important.

Auteezy said:
All casters get the same shot through grassroots and self-promoting and digging for casting scraps to work their way up.
Click to expand...
All casters have the same chance to post their commentary vids on youtube. Not all casters get the chance to cast events that could give them the spotlight they need to show their potential, not all of them get the support of the community. And with the number of preconceptions of women as being unable to play or understand the game at the same level, and of not being as funny or entertaining as men, it shouldn't be hard to see how women don't have the opportunities in the scene men have in terms of all aspects of dota, including casting.

The question we should ask isn't "where are the good female casters?" it's "Why do we have so few?"

Auteezy said:
but there's a million other things they have found to insult male casters
Click to expand...

None of which are as dismissive and knee-cap a person's potential for growth in a scene as much as "you don't deserve this because of your gender."
 
A

Auteezy

Banned
1.09 said:
i think the worst part about all this is how many times i see auteezy's stupid avatar
Click to expand...

I can definitely tell how young and immature you are that you are not a bubble trouble connoisseur. I bet you didn't even get free floppy disks in elementary school.

Quesa said:
This is dodging the point. Yes, that discussion also needs to happen. That doesn't make this one any less important.


All casters have the same chance to post their commentary vids on youtube. Not all casters get the chance to cast events that could give them the spotlight they need to show their potential, not all of them get the support of the community. And with the number of preconceptions of women as being unable to play or understand the game at the same level, and of not being as funny or entertaining as men, it shouldn't be hard to see how women don't have the opportunities in the scene men have in terms of all aspects of dota, including casting.

The question we should ask isn't "where are the good female casters?" it's "Why do we have so few?"



None of which are as dismissive and knee-cap a person's potential for growth in a scene as much as "you don't deserve this because of your gender."
Click to expand...

What point did I dodge, I brought it up because I've never seen an argument about a lack of casters due to race before and I think an argument over inviting a female is even more belittling to people of other races because nobody has brought it up in such a manner. The reason I brought it up is because I honestly believe that nobody cares that a minority other than asian isn't invited to cast, but people care that a female isn't. I think the reason there are so few female casters and so few minority casters is probably the same, they are easier to hate on in the community, however that does not mean that the community does not hate on white male casters as well. It's up to the caster to wade through the sea of shit to get noticed by Valve, or a tournament hosting company/caster company, it's not up to Valve or the Tournament organizer to give a handout.
 
Q

Quesa

Member
Auteezy said:
it's not up to Valve or the Tournament organizer to give a handout.
Click to expand...

For Valve to say "it's not our problem" when it comes to how their game evolves and a problem that's likely limiting their audience is myopic, especially when the game is bleeding players.
 
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