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Dota 2 |OT3| #BetterThenEllenPudge

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H

Hylian7

Member
So here's my thoughts on Goblin Techies.

-I'm not sure if he should be a hard support our just a roamer. He has a good attack range but his damage is so shit that a Stout Shield or Poor Man's Shield will take care of pretty much all of it. Not to mention his animation is the worst.
-Sentries and Gems counter him hard. I don't know if Dust reveals the traps or not, but if it does, that too.
-Building on the above point, he is STUPID good early game when people can't dump all their money into sentries or a gem. Just don't place the mines in too obvious spots.
-Suicide is great, dare I say a bit OP. Having a 1500 damage nuke at level 7 is ridiculous, even if it kills yourself.
-I was in bot with a Pudge, that was actually a fun lane. We were against Zeus and KotL. I would get mines placed and Pudge would go for hooks from those spots. We had a great one with a hook into 3 mines resulting in an instagib.
-I think it's worth buying a TP at the start to place some mines. I did it on the mid lane in some spots and pretty much right off the bat, it damaged the enemy Shadow Friend quite a bit.

I think Techies is a bit OP, but I like the idea of the high risk for reward strat by picking him.
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
NBtoaster said:
Many lanes are lost long before minute 4. By picking a jungler you've conceded the offlane and weakened your safe lane unless you help early. Offensive or defensive lanes with lane presence are much more reliable.
Click to expand...

There are enough heroes that can solo the offlane without conceding anything.
And weakening the safe lane?
That kind of depends on your own safe lane line-up and the hero(es) the enemy is laning there. Most of the junglers can aggressively pop out of the jungle well before a safe lane is considered "lost".

So no, I can't agree with those statements.
Either a jungler is a bad pick in that particular line-up or versus the enemy line-up but it doesn't mean that every time you pick a jungler you fuck over everyone else.
If that were true junglers wouldn't be prominent in a lot of (pro/non-pro) games.
 
K

Kreunt

Banned
Hylian7 said:
So here's my thoughts on Goblin Techies.

-I'm not sure if he should be a hard support our just a roamer. He has a good attack range but his damage is so shit that a Stout Shield or Poor Man's Shield will take care of pretty much all of it. Not to mention his animation is the worst.
-Sentries and Gems counter him hard. I don't know if Dust reveals the traps or not, but if it does, that too.
-Building on the above point, he is STUPID good early game when people can't dump all their money into sentries or a gem. Just don't place the mines in too obvious spots.
-Suicide is great, dare I say a bit OP. Having a 1500 damage nuke at level 7 is ridiculous, even if it kills yourself.
-I was in bot with a Pudge, that was actually a fun lane. We were against Zeus and KotL. I would get mines placed and Pudge would go for hooks from those spots. We had a great one with a hook into 3 mines resulting in an instagib.
-I think it's worth buying a TP at the start to place some mines. I did it on the mid lane in some spots and pretty much right off the bat, it damaged the enemy Shadow Friend quite a bit.

I think Techies is a bit OP, but I like the idea of the high risk for reward strat by picking him.
Click to expand...

One of the asshole tactics in HoN was to TP to lane with mana pots as soon as the match started and drop as many mines as possible on the side shop or entry into the jungle.
 
Nirvana

Nirvana

Member
Kreunt said:
One of the asshole tactics in HoN was to TP to lane with mana pots as soon as the match started and drop as many mines as possible on the side shop or entry into the jungle.
Click to expand...

God this hero sounds like so much fun. One of those heroes with a REALLY high skill cap, but enough bullshit to make him annoying as all fuck to play against at any level.

cough earth spirit cough.
 
N

NBtoaster

Member
F!ReW!Re said:
There are enough heroes that can solo the offlane without conceding anything.
And weakening the safe lane?
That kind of depends on your own safe lane line-up and the hero(es) the enemy is laning there. Most of the junglers can aggressively pop out of the jungle well before a safe lane is considered "lost".

So no I can't agree with those statements;
Either a jungler is a bad pick in that particular line-up or versus the enemy line-up but it doesn't mean that every time you pick a jungler you fuck over everyone else.
If that were true junglers wouldn't be prominent in a lot of (pro/non-pro) games.
Click to expand...

Just speaking from the way most people play them. NP, Axe, Enchantress and Chen can be good gankers, but most people just secure the jungle. And Doom, Lycan, LC are bad gankers and contribute nothing for ages. Heroes like Chen and Enchantress are run in pro games because they help the lanes practically from minute 0, and NP is usually played as an offlane.
 
R

rezuth

Member
NBtoaster said:
Just speaking from the way most people play them. NP, Axe, Enchantress and Chen can be good gankers, but most people just secure the jungle. And Doom, Lycan, LC are bad gankers and contribute nothing for ages. Heroes like Chen and Enchantress are run in pro games because they help the lanes practically from minute 0, and NP is usually played as an offlane.
Click to expand...

Doom+Troll=Excellent ganker
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
NBtoaster said:
Just speaking from the way most people play them. NP, Axe, Enchantress and Chen can be good gankers, but most people just secure the jungle. And Doom, Lycan, LC are bad gankers and contribute nothing for ages.
Click to expand...

Again, it totally depends on the picks on both sides.
If they lane a solo hero against your safe lane, I feel having a tri-lane is a waste.
Having a jungler that can either help gank (NP, Axe, Enchant, Chen, LD) mid or that solo hero works out pretty well, since either the jungle hero or the safe lane carry can use the gold/xp from the kill.
Otherwise having a jungler (like Doom, Lycan, Lc) who doesn't contribute much to the laning fase, can be very useful mid game since he'll have a ton of farm/levels (and aegis incase of lycan) and can make a huge difference during teamfights.

NBtoaster said:
but most people just secure the jungle.
Click to expand...
So that's bad play by "most people".

Basically I get this vibe;
- a jungler doesn't contribute as much to the game/the laning fase compared to running a tri-lane or 2-1-2 setup.
Again: I don't agree with that statement.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Nirvana said:
Dotabuff? Those sound like terrible item decisions by that guy. There seems to be this idea that Terrorblade is 'super' squishy, when really, with his good armour and sunder as a backup I've rarely had that many problems. I think focusing on early game stat items helps you with your shitty strength gain and once you get manta, bkb etc. you aren't really as squishy as everyone thinks and despite still being a bit squishy, you have an ability that can bring you back to full hp instantly for zero mana at level 16.

In my mind, getting heart over Skadi is just asking for a loss. I'd maybe pick it up in like an hour long game as my 5 item or something, but even then you're probs better off with Satanic since he shits out damage in metamorphosis.
Click to expand...

http://dotabuff.com/matches/537716448

I think he got cocky because we lost every lane really badly (I got no farm top as Luna because Abbadon kept just throwing his shield on himself and then standing in lane between me and the creeps)
 
R

RVinP

Unconfirmed Member
Kreunt said:
One of the asshole tactics in HoN was to TP to lane with mana pots as soon as the match started and drop as many mines as possible on the side shop or entry into the jungle.
Click to expand...

Tossing Techies with Tiny
.find enemy hero (or group of heroes)
.get tiny to toss techies
..insane toss range
..toss does some xxx damage
.techies does suicide

Or
.bug blink dagger
.blink next to enemy
.techies does suicide
 
D

Dec

Member
After 650 hours of bot games, playing against players has been really easy.

Invoker is probably easier to play against new players than bots.

People have no fucking clue what to do about Pheonix ult, maybe one person will target the egg and not get enough hits off, then it explodes and 5 man stun.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/536717927 - honestly this is a bad match, my first Invoker game against players and I made a lot of mistakes early game I guess from nerves. Plus we had no courier for 12 minutes or something and had starting items on quas wex until then.

I had AM and Necro went mid and I just stopped setting up EMP with tornado because they just stood in it, instant mana refill.

I've definitely noticed the players getting better and better every game though, where I'm not the only person buying wards and detection. But there are strangely a ton of non-english speakers, sometimes 3 on my team.
 
F

FACE

Banned
Declarius said:
After 650 hours of bot games, playing against players has been really easy.

Invoker is probably easier to play against new players than bots.

People have no fucking clue what to do about Pheonix ult, maybe one person will target the egg and not get enough hits off, then it explodes and 5 man stun.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/535670744

AM and Necro went mid and I just stopped setting up EMP with tornado because they just stood in it, instant mana refill.

I've definitely noticed the players getting better and better every game though, where I'm not the only person buying wards and detection. But there are strangely a ton of non-english speakers, sometimes 3 on my team.
Click to expand...

Holy shit!
 
D

Dec

Member
FACE said:
Holy shit!
Click to expand...

lol. I honestly had no desire to play against players. There is something really relaxing about bot games, and seeing people complain endlessly here just never really made me feel like trying it out.

I still don't see anything wrong with playing against bots exclusively, I played for over a year and had plenty of fun without ever playing vs. people.
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
Declarius said:
lol. I honestly had no desire to play against players. There is something really relaxing about bot games, and seeing people complain endlessly here just never really made me feel like trying it out.

I still don't see anything wrong with playing against bots exclusively, I played for over a year and had plenty of fun without ever playing vs. people.
Click to expand...

Because;
- it's easy to exploit the stupid bot behavior. (Resulting in the endless fountain camping)
- they're sooooooo predictable in how they react: First lane, get owned, then 5 man EVERYTHING.
- Again, exploiting behavior (like them diving into your base when even T1 towers are still up) and then destroying them is fun for a couple of games but gets tiresome really quickly.
- They always run back to their base in a straight line, they'll even tp in plain sight which allows you to always catch them.
- Split pushing makes all/most of them tp in, run to that tower, leaving everything else open to exploits / free farm.
- Bot pool is limited, so you always play against the same pool of heroes

I do enjoy playing the occasional co-op bot games because it's a nice short 30 minute game that's got a relaxed atmosphere without pressure or people giving other people a hard time (always some exceptions but still) but I couldn't see myself playing it for 650 hours without playing against human players. It becomes stale rather quickly and you'll never learn how to actually play against enemies who are not predictable and throw different tactics/skills/items at you.
 
Nirvana

Nirvana

Member
The Technomancer said:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/537716448

I think he got cocky because we lost every lane really badly (I got no farm top as Luna because Abbadon kept just throwing his shield on himself and then standing in lane between me and the creeps)
Click to expand...

Went for a super tank build I guess, pretty pointless in my opinion, when manta style is such a good item on the hero. such a greedy build though, surprised he didn't get punished earlier for it to be honest.
 
D

Dec

Member
F!ReW!Re said:
Because;
- it's easy to exploit the stupid bot behavior. (Resulting in the endless fountain camping)
- they're sooooooo predictable in how they react: First lane, get owned, then 5 man EVERYTHING.
- Again, exploiting behavior (like them diving into your base when even T1 towers are still up) and then destroying them is fun for a couple of games but gets tiresome really quickly.
- They always run back to their base in a straight line, they'll even tp in plain sight which allows you to always catch them.
- Split pushing makes all/most of them tp in, run to that tower, leaving everything else open to exploits / free farm.
- Bot pool is limited, so you always play against the same pool of heroes

I do enjoy playing the occasional co-op bot games because it's a nice short 30 minute game that's got a relaxed atmosphere without pressure or people giving other people a hard time (always some exceptions but still) but I couldn't see myself playing it for 650 hours without playing against human players. It becomes stale rather quickly and you'll never learn how to actually play against enemies who are not predictable and throw different tactics/skills/items at you.
Click to expand...

Meh I've watched tournaments consistently since before I started playing (I started during TI2) so I've always known the strategies and heroes that aren't only able to be used by bots.

I'm 11-3 against players so far.

Bots are waaaaay smarter than players like this for example http://dotabuff.com/matches/533717903.
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
Declarius said:
Meh I've watched tournaments consistently since before I started playing (I started during TI2) so I've always known the strategies and heroes that aren't only able to be used by bots.
Click to expand...

No offense, watching strategies/plays unfold is a a lot different than reacting on it yourself. Sure you'll be familiar with more different scenario's but seeing things vs. doing it yourself is a whole different ball game.
I can watch Lionel Messi use the same trick to pass a defender each time he has the ball, doesn't mean that if you throw me on the pitch with him I can properly defend against his level of play :)

You've 11-3 versus players so far, which means you probably still playing against players who have no fucking clue how to play this game. Since it's possible there's people jumping into this game without doing a few bot games and who've no idea what they are doing (hence the people standing still in the EMP).

Not trying to be a dick, but you'll probably have a different view on things after 650 hours of dota against human opponents :)

Declarius said:
Bots are waaaaay smarter than players like this for example http://dotabuff.com/matches/533717903.
Click to expand...

Dude? Really? You've got a teammate with 3 phase boots and another with 3 gloves of haste.
We'll talk again when you won't have to play against people who've had access to limited amounts of oxygen when they were younger.....
 
D

Dec

Member
F!ReW!Re said:
Dude? Really? You've got a teammate with 3 phase boots and another with 3 gloves of haste.
We'll talk again when you won't have to play against people who've had access to limited amounts of oxygen when they were younger.....
Click to expand...

Why do I bother...

Your point is shit, your strangely combative, obviously misunderstanding why I even posted it, and the entire reason I've so rarely mentioned I played bot games and enjoyed them in this thread.

I honestly want to play with or against you. Or just start doing ranked games and see how terrible I am because I played against bots for so long. Maybe we can find someone that hasn't played at all and see how much practicing against bots actually improves a player.

Edit: Also I'm sorry if this is rude or over the top, the mentality that people play against bots because they are bad, or because they play against bots they are bad always bugs me and I really do want to see if there is any truth to any of it.

Imp the Dimp said:
I almost lost my job over laughing so hard at this dotabuff
Click to expand...

It was just as funny playing it. That was the reason I posted it. I hyped up playing against players, getting really shaky and anxious and when it finally happened (that was my first recorded game) that was the result.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Hylian7 said:
So here's my thoughts on Goblin Techies.

-I'm not sure if he should be a hard support our just a roamer. He has a good attack range but his damage is so shit that a Stout Shield or Poor Man's Shield will take care of pretty much all of it. Not to mention his animation is the worst.
-Sentries and Gems counter him hard. I don't know if Dust reveals the traps or not, but if it does, that too.
-Building on the above point, he is STUPID good early game when people can't dump all their money into sentries or a gem. Just don't place the mines in too obvious spots.
-Suicide is great, dare I say a bit OP. Having a 1500 damage nuke at level 7 is ridiculous, even if it kills yourself.
-I was in bot with a Pudge, that was actually a fun lane. We were against Zeus and KotL. I would get mines placed and Pudge would go for hooks from those spots. We had a great one with a hook into 3 mines resulting in an instagib.
-I think it's worth buying a TP at the start to place some mines. I did it on the mid lane in some spots and pretty much right off the bat, it damaged the enemy Shadow Friend quite a bit.

I think Techies is a bit OP, but I like the idea of the high risk for reward strat by picking him.
Click to expand...

Off the top of my head techies must be much worse in Dota 2 because people send couriers to secret shop much more. Back in the Dota 1 days mining the ss and getting the "fuck you" response when you've blown up the guy trying to get a point booster or whathaveyou was great.
 
C

Cyborgmatt

Member
#hype

woCh7qi.png
 
D

Demoli

Member
Krauser Kat said:
I have been enjoying Huskar and Weaver but they seem to not be great team players. Any heroes i can move to from here that are support/carry.
Click to expand...

Luna, Gyro and Lifestealer are good carries that can get online very early and start contributing at around the 15-20 min mark.

For supports, I personally prefer CM, Visage or Dazzle, they seem to have the most powerfull and useful suports early on, even with the enrfs to CM mana pool and Visage's manacosts.
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
Declarius said:
Why do I bother...

Your point is shit, your strangely combative, obviously misunderstanding why I even posted it, and the entire reason I've so rarely mentioned I played bot games and enjoyed them in this thread.

I honestly want to play with or against you. Or just start doing ranked games and see how terrible I am because I played against bots for so long. Maybe we can find someone that hasn't played at all and see how much practicing against bots actually improves a player.

Edit: Also I'm sorry if this is rude or over the top, the mentality that people play against bots because they are bad, or because they play against bots they are bad always bugs me and I really do want to see if there is any truth to any of it.
Click to expand...

Whoa, calm down there dude.

I haven't called you a bad player or was insinuating it.
But you've had 650 hours of experience vs. bots and just started playing against normal players.
Which would result in you getting matched up against the people we see in that dotabuff links: People who don't have a clue what they are doing, hence you absolutely destroy them...

From my earlier post I've tried to list reasons why playing solely against bots would hamper your knowledge/skill compared to having played against human opponents.

I do think however that if you compare a player who has 650 hours of bot play under his belt would probably be below (in terms of skill, knowledge, level of play) a player who has had 650 hours of play versus a human under his belt. That isn't intended as an insult, but as a line of thinking.
Might be I'm wrong, but in my experience you get better from playing against players who are better than you, who know more stuff than you and who outplay you.

Cyborgmatt said:
#hype

Click to expand...

No offense but; what?
 
M

mfaex

Member
Gem nerfs should help techies. Way longer cooldown and it's much more expensive then it was a few years ago. Suicide cooldown got nerfed hard, but that big armor buff they got is nice.
 
P

Pinko Marx

Banned
Krauser Kat said:
I have been enjoying Huskar and Weaver but they seem to not be great team players. Any heroes i can move to from here that are support/carry.
Click to expand...
How are you playing Huskar? I actually think he's a great team player.
If you mid with him and gank as soon as you hit 6 you'll definitely help your other lanes.
He doesn't need a whole lot of farm so he can hit his stride fairly early.
He's a great initiator because the lower he gets the more damage he does. If you target a squishy int you're almost guaranteed a kill every fight. Play him as a sacrificial lamb. Don't worry so much about surviving the fights but instead doing as much damage as possible before dying.
i frequently get deaths up into the double digits whenplaying husk, but my kills are always higher.
 
G

GordonHalfman

Member
Anyone know if the bot AI is moddable in any way? I guess not many people are interested in an improved bot experience, but it could be a neat project for someone. Getting bots to do complex four protect one strats is probably not possible but you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to improve simple things, like getting them to run towards the T1 instead of making a beeline for the fountain or getting them to cancel channelling spells sometimes.
 
P

Pinko Marx

Banned
Declarius said:
The Drow Ranger had like 5 salves at 20 minutes. Then bought a fully completed SNY with no boots or any other items.
Click to expand...
Yeah dude. I've seen some pretty dumb players in my time but you were clearly with the lowest of the low tier. Keep playing with real people and see how long that lasts.
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
Cyborgmatt said:
It's counting down to something really bloody awesome.
Click to expand...

Ohh you big tease!

You brought this onto yourself:
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give more info!

Edit:
Announcement after the countdown;
A. Cyborgmatt replaces Xboct as Na'vi's new carry - Cyborgmatt(4)
B. Cyborgmatt replaces Tobiwan in all his upcoming casting events
C. Cyborgmatt finally reveals he's Icefrog
D. All of the above
 
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