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Dota 2 |OT3| #BetterThenEllenPudge
- Thread starter Artanisix
- Start date
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someone watch this and tell me what went wrong this game
http://dotabuff.com/matches/558663853
we honestly should have won
I was the storm. 3.2k mmr reporting in
Look at TA and LD's tower damage, compare it your team, that should answer your question.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I just long for the day where I event reach a match making bracket where I don't get called a noob when I ask for a mid gank against a SF as Necrophose.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Every time I've either beaten or been beaten as Lancer all of the outer towers have had to be down by the 20 minute mark. Not every lineup can do that. Its so easy to be screwed by the draft because of course Lancer was the last pick so you didn't have a chance to get both Death Prophet and Pugna or something
Schweinehund
Member
yeah you may as well discount wc3 dota. The talent pool is most likely much smaller at this point, and the reaction speeds/tempo of the game maybe arguably slower due to some things like quickbuy and customizable hotkeys not being available in WC3, which would lead to lower hero pick variance (imagine trying to play invoker with each invoked spells having a different hotkey).
You can customize hotkeys in WC3, it's just a pain.
Schweinehund
Member
Yeah I tried using warkeys and it was still awkward. Wonder if they allowed those in tournaments or not.
allgamespc
Banned
lol people greatly exaggerate on PL. Hes tough yes, once hes farmed. However, one melee hard carry with a Battle Fury and bye bye illusions. One gank with smoke and bye bye PL.
You know, there is a reason why this meta is all about pushing. Thats why we dont see 90 minute pro games anymore. My strat every game, is to 5 man push as fast as possible. If theres a PL i find it even more fun to play against. Ever since PL got nerfed, hes pretty much not picked anymore.
I don't agree with the no room for error part but I agree with you that he is one of the most punishing heroes if you commit mistakes. He is a very item dependent carry that can easily be ganked early. If you can disrupt his farm early in the game, he will be behind in the midgame where most games are decided. IMO, he is not a flash farmer and he is one of those heroes that has terrible recovery when their early game is bad.
allgamespc
Banned
its actually a lot funnier than the pyrion one and other ones that try to be funny..oh wait...
No, it won't. http://dotabuff.com/matches/556341289
The BS went top with me when I said I wanted offlane(he's muted btw and a gigantic rager) and he last picked BS as well. Proceeded to get dunked on by 3 heros when I sat by my tower cause I saw them coming and proceeded to jungle/die to neutrals the whole game.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/558653281
Shaman never controlled his wards to attack towers which did delay the game quite a bit, storm went soul ring and would pop it when low and in fights then proceeded to go bloodstone then lose every charge.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/556019523
I don't think clinkz ever used his orchid.
All of this is in 4.2k~, and I didn't even mention on how the opponents played.
Yeah, can't log in at all.
This is going to sound stupid, but how can you recover if you lose your mid lane as Storm by getting hooked only one time as Pudge, and he got lucky. I always feel like if things don't go extremely well in the first 5 minutes, then the game is completely lost and I have to try to play Farmville 2014 to catch up, and then my team is crying "gank gankj gank" and I'm like "I don't have my Orchid yet".
Obviously the answer is "don't get hoooked before 6", but if you do, how do you catch up?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/558715645
For reference there's the specific game if anyone wants to do a replay analysis.
I felt like getting hooked only one time lost me the whole game to an unrecoverable deficit.
Obviously the answer is "don't get hoooked before 6", but if you do, how do you catch up?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/558715645
For reference there's the specific game if anyone wants to do a replay analysis.
I felt like getting hooked only one time lost me the whole game to an unrecoverable deficit.
Because Mirana (and they were quite ahead so why not?)
It was a one-sided game.
D
Deleted member 77995
Unconfirmed Member
The numbers are only relative to the ranked population. 4k last week isn't the same as 4k this week or when ranked first started or even a year from now. If you consistently play on the same skill level but the average player below you gets better and better you'll actually end up slowly dropping.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
that's only true until he gets a heart or if the melee carry is way ahead in farm
also, the same thing regarding smoke ganks can be said of most carries in the game, outside of am/lycan/naga/morph/some other hero i might be forgetting
i'm not going to argue about whether pl was or not imbalanced or if he is or was easy to counter, but the reason people complained about it so much is that it made the games drag. once the non pl team was even or a little behind vs the pl team, they probably had the feeling (rightfully or not) that the game was over, because the pl was just gonna farm and take it over eventually
compare it to, say, zeus or lich having a 55% winrate and it's completely different. those heroes have to end the game early, so the losing team doesn't feel like they're getting stomped for 20 minutes and there's nothing they can do. this is also why having heroes like riki and spirit breaker dominating can ruin the game for many people, since they can't leave the base. and this is also why people hate pudge so much -- whenever his team stomps, they just keep wasting time fountain hooking half the time. to sum it up, it's actually ok for some heroes to dominate matchmaking, as long as those heroes don't ruin the fun of the game for the losing team. not that losing is fun, but they just make the situation worse
and the other reason you can't have some of these heroes dominate is... the lack of concede. because if the losing team could concede instead of being forced to wait 20 minutes for the game to end, then they wouldn't be that mad about certain heroes. but they can't
this is where the "this only happens because you're bad" routine kicks in -- "if there's one rax down, just leave the base with smoke and the game will eventually end". Or, the losing team could've beaten the pl team because they did a bunch of mistakes, except the losing team is losing precisely because they're relatively even in skill with the pl team and also make mistakes / don't have the professional level coordination to fight back, so the game is unwinnable for them. in other words, the players should be allowed to decide when they no longer want to play without being in a 5stack or having their winning conditions being judged by players with a mmr 2-4k higher who think the game would've gone differently if they were the ones playing
i mean, if the heroes are really imbalanced, like pre-ti2 lycan or week-of-release centaur, then people are gonna complain, even if they end the game shortly. but heroes that make the game drag are much worse to play against, so
also friends, i'm not doing our usual internet fighting routine today, though i can't really stop anyone from replying to this. ty for your comprehension
What? But your team was telling you how. The second you have bottle, boots and 6 you should be ganking. You farm heroes to get your orchid if you are mid. You can gank a weak lane without your 6 if you get a lucky rune. There are very few lineups/characters that you should farm mid till your first major item on. You get runes and get kills.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Make sure wards get up, pick up runes when you can, use them to get kills with your team when you can, and farm your little heart out.
I guessed as much. I have a lower mmr than you, but wouldn't have been better to instead gank other lanes as storm? Yeah you died, but judging by the other lanes, you would have been more helpful by ganking instead of farming, especially with the items you needed to build.
Difference here is that zeus and lich aren't hard carries. Pl is just in that niche of hard carries where he focuses more on farming and splitpushing compared to other carries.
If you lose mid then try to gank or fall back into safe afk farming mode.
If you can't seem to catch up then farm or gank better.
And do camps when you can with storm to supplement lane income. He blows them up easy.
If you can't seem to catch up then farm or gank better.
And do camps when you can with storm to supplement lane income. He blows them up easy.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
He's the only hard carry I can think of with that level of map control that just makes the game feel pointless because you're essentially playing a hoard mode
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Nothing drives me nuts quite like the game snowballing out of control because every engagement is 4v5 because the Juggernaut is convinced that if he just spends ten more minutes in the jungle his next item will turn the game around though
neurosisxeno
Member
I will watch the replay when I get home, but from the sound of it and look of it, you lost because you didn't gank. Mid heroes have to gank, the whole reason you are in mid is for levels and a bit of farm, to get a single low cost item and start picking off junglers and offlaners. I mean, you even went for a skill build that prioritized hero kills (taking Vortex primarily), you needed to be punishing them. That doom should have been ganked within a minute of you hitting 6 (I assume he was jungling with Invoker offlane, Pudge Mid, and Kunkka\Bird safelane). While Orchid helps a ton, it's not required for ganks.
Looking at your skill build, I would say it's not the best against a Pudge. Vortex is nice, but you want to keep Pudge under pressure (at least when I play Pudge it annoys the crap out of me) and Static Remnant and Overload are much better for that. 0.5 extra seconds on the disable--some time of which is wasted due to attac animations--is kind of pointless. The other problem is Pudge wants you to be close, and you need to be close to stun him as SS, until yo are 6 and can zip away you're going to be walking straight into death using that ability against him frequently. Overload will allow you to slow him and get 1-2 extra right clicks on him, and Static Remnant will keep him off the creep wave and get you some farm.
That lineup has Gank written all over it, and you needed to take advantage of that. Between Mirana Arrows, Mirana Ults, SS, and Legion, you should have been constantly jumping them, and even in team fights DS wall would have helped you guys tremendously.
Often peolpe get too caught up in certain aspects of the game. Getting First Blood never solely determines the outcome of the game. You can lose the lane and still crush their team;
http://dotabuff.com/matches/552879096
That's a game me and some friends played. I played BS mid and lost pretty handily to an Invoker. but I stayed in lane and got a reasonable level 6, then immediately started ganking other lanes. I lost the lane, period. But I worked towards winning the game. The issue is that people start playing a different game when things like a FB happen against them. As you said, you abandoned any idea of ganking when you got first blooded, because you needed to farm to catch back up--WRONG. You neded to follow through with ganking. Giving a Pudge 300G is not going to change the entire game.
Are you playing a farm racing game or are you playing dota? You need to be able to read the situation, see a good rune? Go get a kill with it. See a good opportunity for a gank? TP in and kill. You have to be efficient with your time. If you are not getting a kill or getting farm you better be on your way to it. If you're going to sit the lane, go for a stronger lane harass and farming build, but only do that if your team can afford to play without you or if there is literally no way you can contribute to your team without an item. Storm is somebody that can and should contribute early.
People that don't read chat or watch their minimap have no reason to bitch about getting ganked.
even though they always will
What?
This has to be one of the most roundabout arguments for concede ever made. People will spam for concede regardless if they're getting stomped by a PL "extending the game" or a snowballing Axe who will fall off late if the team can properly defend.
I think people get a little too consumed with winning. There are going to be games we lose regardless of how well we play. It happens to pros, it happens to the high tier pubstars and it's going to happen in the trench. The best you can do is just take the lumps and if you're going to criticize anyone's play it should be your own since that's the only person's skill you can change.
Also, carry detection and tps as basically all three of those "pub ruining heroes" mentioned are countered by really basic skills that everyone should be working on improving. Course, I'd love to see a concede option built around this idea. You only have the option to concede if your enemy has drafted Riki, Phantom Lancer, Spirit Breaker and the latest hero that Reddit has decided to hate for the month.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I did not know Slardar's stun was physical until now.
Won my first real Lone Druid match.
Feels good to take heroe's who I've played a lot of VS. bots and then actually do well with them in a real game. Which is mostly the "harder" heroes to play... ie. LD, pudge, etc..
I never want to pick them because I'm worried about letting my team down, and then I go and pick them and lead our team to glorious victory. It's a good feeling.
edit: currently 99 wins.
Feels good to take heroe's who I've played a lot of VS. bots and then actually do well with them in a real game. Which is mostly the "harder" heroes to play... ie. LD, pudge, etc..
I never want to pick them because I'm worried about letting my team down, and then I go and pick them and lead our team to glorious victory. It's a good feeling.
edit: currently 99 wins.
pl is easy naga is way worse
as in goes through BKB? that's revolutionary
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
It should do.
I thought I was being all smart waiting for him to blink in to star spinning as juggernaut.
I thought there was a change to the spin, but it's slardar's physical instead.
Edit: Maybe I'm wrong, wiki says the stun is magical.
I'm certain he stunned me though whilst I was spinning.
SteveWinwood
Member
Crush's stun is magical, it's damage is physical.
If you're talking about his bash, then yes bashes are physical and go through bkb.
Edit: I guess mkb is magical I always forget about that.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I was almost certain it was the stun itself.
Yeah knew of the bash ting, but was certain he stunned me with W whilst I was meatspinning.
can you get bashed while spinning? maybe it was a bash then.
Conceding the point?
Dohohohohohoho
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Yeah you can, I will have to check then.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
rekt
I got Visage in Ability Draft once and decided to grab Mana Break and Duel. Apparently Duel disables Mana Break! There went my whole idea out the window!
*sexydaddy420 has selected terrorblade
*sexydaddy420 has given up first blood!
"gg"
"gg"
"gg"
"gg"
"FUCKING PERUVIANF EFEKEEEPS CANCELINGGI HOLY FUCK"
"gg"
"gg"
"omfg seriously????"
"game is fucking over team doesn't buy wards LAMO"
"gg"
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