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Dota 2 |OT3| #BetterThenEllenPudge

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Schweinehund

Member
Mirana could be shifted out of popularity with other hero changes, I think invoker is here to stay. Wex is useful at every stage of the game. I could easily see mirana going back into obscurity if pushing came back to the forefront.

I've been a big fan of AA for awhile, I think players are just now getting around to him and it isn't something that will stick around for long.
 
R

rac

Banned
Hylian7 said:
I never said Mirana needed a nerf, I'm just tired of seeing her get picked every game. I was hoping IceFrog would nerf her to reduce her frequency of being picked, sort of like the Io nerf, where he wasn't really OP, just picked/banned every game.

You can't tell me that some of you have never had those frustrating games where you are an arrow magnet just because it keeps coming from some angle you didn't expect and happen to have your camera in the wrong spot.
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You're tired of Mirana getting picked every game but you had no problem picking earth spirit every time you played.
 
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Pratfall

Member
This is not to pile onto Mirana, just more out of curiosity, but what other heroes can fill the 1-4 roles as well as Mirana? I know she isn't a top tier support but I am having a hard time thinking of other heroes that are as flexible. Naga and Venge? Alch and Silencer also I suppose.
 
Heavy's Sandvich

Heavy's Sandvich

Member
Pratfall said:
This is not to pile onto Mirana, just more out of curiosity, but what other heroes can fill the 1-4 roles as well as Mirana? I know she isn't a top tier support but I am having a hard time thinking of other heroes that are as flexible. Naga and Venge? Alch and Silencer also I suppose.
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Alchemist.
 
T

Technosteve

Banned
Hylian7 said:
I never said Mirana needed a nerf, I'm just tired of seeing her get picked every game. I was hoping IceFrog would nerf her to reduce her frequency of being picked, sort of like the Io nerf, where he wasn't really OP, just picked/banned every game.

You can't tell me that some of you have never had those frustrating games where you are an arrow magnet just because it keeps coming from some angle you didn't expect and happen to have your camera in the wrong spot.
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How do you nerf a skill shot?
 
A

Acinixys

Member
BigAT said:
Magic Wand >>>>> Heart according to FATA.
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Even without the heart they were shutting Navi down hard

6 slot Naga has got to be one of the hardest things to deal with in the latelate game

Unless you have crazy AOE spells to clear her illusions youre going down
 
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n0b

Member
I hope that no characters get a big nerf in the next patch.

This is the most open the hero pool has been in all the time I've watched dota. A few small buffs here and there on the lesser picked heroes, get the new heroes in and let them sit for a while. (huskar,dusa, pa, troll, necro, ogre, and SB are the heroes picked under 5 times in the last patch, maybe give them a bit more attention)

Aaron said:
Meanwhile, Liquid is bad Mirana is dominating on dreamleague.
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Bulba lost the lane as invoker even before he died. Its a misplay.
 
D

Demoli

Member
n0b said:
I hope that no characters get a big nerf in the next patch.
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I'm okay with this as long as Invoker gets properly shafted, dudde's too much of a nuisance with QW.

I wish they gave back the no cast time of return on the spirit bear though..
 
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Marauder Shields

Member
The stretch goals of the Dream League should be tied to how many buttons Bruno has undone on his shirt. Every time a mark is hit, he has to undo a button. Ez cash.
 
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balladofwindfishes

Member
I'd like to see Phoenix's many bugs and exploits fixed and every hero in Dota 2 in CM next balance patch.

Phoenix is really buggy btw
- Random auto attack while diving that is uncancelable and removes tranqs buff. You should have to shift queue up to attack while diving, it shouldn't be the default.
- Massive blade mail exploit with supernova
- Icarus Dive cannot be canceled sometimes (it's thought that the random auto attack messes up the cancel command if they happen at the same time)


I can't think of any major Legion bugs

Same for TB, other than his meta has a casting animation when it shouldn't, but the animation is pretty so they should just change it to have a cast animation in WC3 since he's already a fantastic hero.

Brood is awful now and wouldn't ever be picked in CM, but might as well toss her in.

Earth Spirit is underpowered now (sort of, he's just kind of an awkward hero in a strange place right now), but I think a hero like him really needs high skill play to balance. Being in CM would help a lot.
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
Dreams-Visions said:
none of his listed need nerfs, imo. none of those picks make any heroes less viable nor do they stomp. they just work well when played well. they're not auto-win picks like pre-nerf Phantom Lancer or some such. I bet if we looked at their stats, all of the above probably lose more than they win. I just accept them as flavor of the month picks or picks that do well against current metas.
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See that's the thing. People seem to have a double standard when it comes to hero balance. PL was never auto-win.

Let's go over some basic facts:
1)Old PL and current Mirana both have comparable pub winrates: 53-54%. Mirana is far more popular pick-wise; however, she's generally always been a top5 picked hero in pubs.
2) Old PL was a tier 3 competitive hero month to month (i.e. he was a middle of the pack pick popularity wise, not picked too much, not completely ignored). Current Mirana is a tier 1 competitive pick, she is the most picked competitive hero in 6.80.
3) Old PL had a competitive winrate of something like 42%-52% during his prime (I can't remember exactly I just know it was in that range). Current Mirana has a competitive winrate of 58%.

So what exactly makes Old PL auto-win/cancerous and new Mirana "completely fine"? Can't have it both ways. Perception doesn't often match reality when it comes to dota.
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
n0b said:
I hope that no characters get a big nerf in the next patch.
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TB and Invoker deserve a moderate to large nerf IMO. Though "large" dota nerfs sometimes appear insignificant (i.e. TB reflection now purge-able or illusion damage taken from 200%-->300% are both large nerfs that might not appear as such with a one line patch note).
 
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balladofwindfishes

Member
X7ML89N.png

Dream League Invoker set custom Forge Spirit concept art.


Phoenix and Shadow Fiend had a baby!
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
balladofwindfishes said:
I don't see TB being touched much at all. He's a pub stomper, but I don't see him being any big deal in competitive play. Certainly a high tier pick, but not overpowered at all.
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He's pretty much the best all around carry in the entire game in my opinion. 300 base damage on ranged form 25 minutes into games with multiple ranged illusions, 30 armor, and the best slow in the game that also functions as an unpurge-able anti-carry ability. Fair and balanced.

He's insanely tanky, he's a better pusher than Lycan, he has more lane presence than any other hard carry in the game, and he's beyond relevant at all stages of the game as a by product of these strengths (and I didn't even list all of them, that would take ages).
 
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balladofwindfishes

Member
Anbokr said:
He's pretty much the best all around carry in the entire game in my opinion. He's like #1 in 55 different carry categories with very few drawbacks.
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He's been in Dota forever and the last few years had been relatively untouched. If he was really this broken and overpowered someone would have noticed long before he was in Dota 2.
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
balladofwindfishes said:
He's been in Dota forever and the last few years had been relatively untouched. If he was really this broken and overpowered someone would have noticed long before he was in Dota 2.
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What? He's been remade multiple times in the last couple years and has been in CM for a very short time (also dota 1 cm isn't really a reliable measure of a hero's viability anymore IMO). His latest remake is by far his strongest version and he's received like 5-10 buffs in the last few patches without ever hitting dota 2. He's a really unstable hero so the "been in dota forever" doesn't really work here seeing as he's been remade every 5 or so patches.

Don't get me wrong ballad, TB was my favorite dota 1 hero and definitely one of my favorite dota 2 heroes already, but I just feel disgusted playing him. It doesn't feel right at all (and I want to play him more but I can't until he gets nerfed!).
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
This is the best game ever.

balladofwindfishes said:
He's been in Dota forever and the last few years had been relatively untouched. If he was really this broken and overpowered someone would have noticed long before he was in Dota 2.
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It wasn't that long ago sunder and metamorphosis got all reworked. He's not the same hero he used to be.

B10 by the terrorblade dude himself

2nd edit not sunder like every other skill but sunder
 
Q

Quesa

Member
Anbokr said:
See that's the thing. People seem to have a double standard when it comes to hero balance. PL was never auto-win.

Let's go over some basic facts:
1)Old PL and current Mirana both have comparable pub winrates: 53-54%. Mirana is far more popular pick-wise; however, she's generally always been a top5 picked hero in pubs.
2) Old PL was a tier 3 competitive hero month to month (i.e. he was a middle of the pack pick popularity wise, not picked too much, not completely ignored). Current Mirana is a tier 1 competitive pick, she is the most picked competitive hero in 6.80.
3) Old PL had a competitive winrate of something like 42%-52% during his prime (I can't remember exactly I just know it was in that range). Current Mirana has a competitive winrate of 58%.

So what exactly makes Old PL auto-win/cancerous and new Mirana "completely fine"? Can't have it both ways. Perception doesn't often match reality when it comes to dota.
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Pl was and is still less fun to fight late game is imo why people whined. A good Pl beat you by making sure you were always losing a lane if you didnt babysit it and made teamfights a pain Pl stomps seemed incontrovertible and slow. Mirana stomps are a series of lost teamfights where you could isolate the problems (oh i just arrowed or o they ultied and got me).

I agree that it's a double standard, but people were more frustrated when they lost to pl. also mirana is a waifu so people want to play her more.
 
A

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
Ape_Agape said:
Pl was and is still less fun to fight late game is imo why people whined. A good Pl beat you by making sure you were always losing a lane if you didnt babysit it and made teamfights a pain Pl stomps seemed incontrovertible and slow. Mirana stomps are a series of lost teamfights where you could isolate the problems (oh i just arrowed or o they ultied and got me).

I agree that it's a double standard, but people were more frustrated when they lost to pl. also mirana is a waifu so people want to play her more.
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Dotallyrad said:
This is shit we hear about every hero who’s perceived as the stronkest late game hero. We’ve heard it about Lone Druid, we’ve heard it about Faceless Void, we’ve heard it about Spectre, we’ve heard it about Medusa, we’ve heard it about Drow, we’ve heard it about Necrolyte for fuck’s sake. The mad bads never get tired of it...

People just have a thing about getting shitslammed by carries. They’re mostly OK with getting hit around the park by supports, because apparently KotL channelling a 500 damage aoe nuke with 1400 range is counterable and OK because the hero is squish, but PL getting heart at 40 minutes and producing armies of illusions that require more than 2 spells to kill isn’t.
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Only time I've ever agreed with dotallyrad (this was written about a year ago).

Also you could isolate why you lost to a PL in the same way you isolated how you lost to Mirana: you (using you generally here, not "you" specifically) probably didn't gank one of the easiest hard carries to kill in the early game considering his only escape is completely countered by a 180g item that let's you kill him for free twice every minute, and allowed him to farm for 40 minutes until he became relevant and carried the game for his team. Or maybe you did try these things but you got hella denied by an OP KOTL that helped turtle for 40 minutes or a batrider that made it a pain to ever push with 5 teammates since he always scored a guaranteed kill on one.

People of course always tend to ignore the fotm "OP" early game heroes that allow the fotm "OP" carry heroes like PL to make it into the late game (with some notable exceptions like Earth Spirit 2400 range initiation), and only remember the fact that they got bulldozed by a six slotted hard carry... derp.

And yeah, the waifu effect can never be underestimated. I remember playdota was just circlejerking for months with buff CM threads when she was completely fine (hell even after she became a first pick/first ban), and some random new member just came in the thread and gave them a dose of the reel tawk: "legit do any of you ever care about ugly ass supports like lion, wd, rhasta, na, you only ever beg for CM, mirana, wr, lina, or luna buffs cuz ur all a bunch of fukn socially inept virgins that live vicariously through big-titted female avatars." I'm paraphrasing but man was that a quality shit-post for that specific shit-thread...
 
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