Like you said earlier, it's weird that Echo Stomp would work and not Crush. Maybe just an oversight. I checked if it was on dota2dev; if it is I'm not seeing it. Poor Slar.
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Dota 2 |OT7| What the fuck have they done
- Thread starter Artanisix
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Like you said earlier, it's weird that Echo Stomp would work and not Crush. Maybe just an oversight. I checked if it was on dota2dev; if it is I'm not seeing it. Poor Slar.
Well the changes they made concerning mid seems to be a shift away from random advantages. If two mids go for rune spots, and one gets a DD and the other nothing, it can become an insurmountable disadvantage that causes one of the mids to lose the lane purely based off of a random factor.
Now with the exp deny buff, you will have to win mid by out last hitting and denying your foe.
SteveWinwood
Member
haly im gonna need you to back me up on this jinx stuff cause she could be so much better but theyre holding her back
Such intricacies are lost on Tobi
But he just started casting so I wouldn't hold it against him
GordonHalfman
Member
Ah ok I get what they mean, thanks. So when you click on the ground to kick a rock you can just click where you're aiming now, instead of having to click close to your hero? (Because that would be a huge ease of use change.)
Basically, it will kick the direction you cast in relation to the hero.
He can still push. He destroys creep waves super fast, and each wave is enough to spawn like 4-5 illusions. He can't split push, but he can push. Also, he is a great fighter now.
shira
Member
Duh fuck is the point?
epeen cred
Alright, finally got around to reading them properly.
-Not so sure about map changes. Roshan change is good, but i'm not so sure about the clearer juking spots and the opening of several new normal routes.
-Hate the rune change, Bounty rune is gonna be too good for heroes like Morph or Alch or OD or any other mid that just wants farm. I do like how the changes of the courier go hand in hand witht he rune changes to stop bottle crowing.
-Aghs BKB Bane will be way too good, but then again when a bane has that much farm the game is about to end either way.
-Great damage buffs to Beastmaster, supports are gonna cry when they get hit for almost pure damage levels of nuke early on.
-New Bloodrage looks great and i can see loads of great plays and fails alike based on this ability. Bloodrite is absolutely insane with it's cast range and AoE.
-Brewmaster surprisingly avoided the Nerfstick even though eh is one of the most popular heroes out there.
-love the Broodmother web changes
-Aghs Chen is gonna be absolutely hilarious. If an enemy doesn't have a ranged right clicker you just march down 3 granite golems down their base.
-BH shuriken will be hlarious.
-Searing arrows not being a UAM anymore combined with the new Helm of Dom will make Helm a core pick up on Clinkz.
-Tower changes combined with a CD nerf will make a very sad Death Prophet
-Absolutely huge nerf to Doom
-Good changes to Earth Spirit
-Earthshaker got the Nyx treatment
-Black Hole damage nerfed significantly
-Huge nerfs to Chrono's vision and usage. Having evasion alone makes it so much worse.
-Why would you even put more than one point in Life break until 14 is beyond me
-Mana leak even more obnoxious.
-Unnecessary nerfs to LC
-Lone Druid's bear having mana is a huge boon to him. Opens up for stuff like abyssal, and you can use Mjolnir charge without having to be a juggler. Hero is still gonna be weak until they give the bear either more damage or more roots to level 2 bear.
-Lycan morph time is huge now, tp's to towers are gonna wreck him.
-Pitiful buffs to one of the worst games in Medusa. Same for spectre
-Lovely changes to Balanar
-Ogre got extra regen and multicasts are more often. Heh, nothing really changed honestly.
-PL looks wierd, but i guess this is more geared towards fighing rather than splitpushing. Good to have 2 illusions at will, even though one does 0 damage.
-Puck aghs is crazy good, so is Phoenix's
-Looks like Riki got nerfed to me.
-Apart from the min damage on Plasma Field which is pretty big i'll admit, Razor is pretty much the same
-Small nerfs to SS and Skywrath, though disjointable concussive is pretty big.
-Even if sniper gets buffed by that change, I'll be more relieved that i'm not stunned every goddamn second.
-Timber Aghs is absolutele trash
-Tinker is now irrelevant forever and i could not be happier about it. Cant stack ancients and jungle is much slower and vulnerable to ganks. E-Blade no longer auto ghosts him and is a projectile. Blink Dagger more Expensive. Dagon is now at 180 constant mana, adding up over repeated rearms. Perma Sheep just isn't as good as instagibbing a hero every 5 secs. Bloodstone change won't benefit him either cause tinker wants a soul ring mroe than a BS. May you never be relavant again you piece of shit.
-Treant aghs seems so much fun. You can potentially overgrowth your entire jungle.
-Smart Ice shards buff
-Nice undying buffs, but wish his ult was less underwhelming without aghs.
-Warlock Golems are now ranged heroes
-Crit Weaver is gonna be some bullshit I tell you.
-BKB is now a game losing item
-Crimson Guard is gonna be good on like 5 hero tops, I can only see myself buying it on Bristle and Axe.
-Mek nerf was deserved, I'd have gone further with mana cost.
I don't know how this patch will be, but I sure am glad with a couple of changes they made.
-Not so sure about map changes. Roshan change is good, but i'm not so sure about the clearer juking spots and the opening of several new normal routes.
-Hate the rune change, Bounty rune is gonna be too good for heroes like Morph or Alch or OD or any other mid that just wants farm. I do like how the changes of the courier go hand in hand witht he rune changes to stop bottle crowing.
-Aghs BKB Bane will be way too good, but then again when a bane has that much farm the game is about to end either way.
-Great damage buffs to Beastmaster, supports are gonna cry when they get hit for almost pure damage levels of nuke early on.
-New Bloodrage looks great and i can see loads of great plays and fails alike based on this ability. Bloodrite is absolutely insane with it's cast range and AoE.
-Brewmaster surprisingly avoided the Nerfstick even though eh is one of the most popular heroes out there.
-love the Broodmother web changes
-Aghs Chen is gonna be absolutely hilarious. If an enemy doesn't have a ranged right clicker you just march down 3 granite golems down their base.
-BH shuriken will be hlarious.
-Searing arrows not being a UAM anymore combined with the new Helm of Dom will make Helm a core pick up on Clinkz.
-Tower changes combined with a CD nerf will make a very sad Death Prophet
-Absolutely huge nerf to Doom
-Good changes to Earth Spirit
-Earthshaker got the Nyx treatment
-Black Hole damage nerfed significantly
-Huge nerfs to Chrono's vision and usage. Having evasion alone makes it so much worse.
-Why would you even put more than one point in Life break until 14 is beyond me
-Mana leak even more obnoxious.
-Unnecessary nerfs to LC
-Lone Druid's bear having mana is a huge boon to him. Opens up for stuff like abyssal, and you can use Mjolnir charge without having to be a juggler. Hero is still gonna be weak until they give the bear either more damage or more roots to level 2 bear.
-Lycan morph time is huge now, tp's to towers are gonna wreck him.
-Pitiful buffs to one of the worst games in Medusa. Same for spectre
-Lovely changes to Balanar
-Ogre got extra regen and multicasts are more often. Heh, nothing really changed honestly.
-PL looks wierd, but i guess this is more geared towards fighing rather than splitpushing. Good to have 2 illusions at will, even though one does 0 damage.
-Puck aghs is crazy good, so is Phoenix's
-Looks like Riki got nerfed to me.
-Apart from the min damage on Plasma Field which is pretty big i'll admit, Razor is pretty much the same
-Small nerfs to SS and Skywrath, though disjointable concussive is pretty big.
-Even if sniper gets buffed by that change, I'll be more relieved that i'm not stunned every goddamn second.
-Timber Aghs is absolutele trash
-Tinker is now irrelevant forever and i could not be happier about it. Cant stack ancients and jungle is much slower and vulnerable to ganks. E-Blade no longer auto ghosts him and is a projectile. Blink Dagger more Expensive. Dagon is now at 180 constant mana, adding up over repeated rearms. Perma Sheep just isn't as good as instagibbing a hero every 5 secs. Bloodstone change won't benefit him either cause tinker wants a soul ring mroe than a BS. May you never be relavant again you piece of shit.
-Treant aghs seems so much fun. You can potentially overgrowth your entire jungle.
-Smart Ice shards buff
-Nice undying buffs, but wish his ult was less underwhelming without aghs.
-Warlock Golems are now ranged heroes
-Crit Weaver is gonna be some bullshit I tell you.
-BKB is now a game losing item
-Crimson Guard is gonna be good on like 5 hero tops, I can only see myself buying it on Bristle and Axe.
-Mek nerf was deserved, I'd have gone further with mana cost.
I don't know how this patch will be, but I sure am glad with a couple of changes they made.
When I say pushing, I also mean taking down towers. Old PL could do that because his illusions lasted long enough. New PL can't since his illusions last 8s max without manta and only deal 16% dmg each which is technically higher in total (old pl was 240% total dmg without manta and new PL is between 244-260% total dmg) but you'll never get max illusions on a tower. Hes stronger with diffusal now but his pushing is still crap. I like rush and doppelganger though. He's much better at fighting early and his dodge is better compared to his invis lategame imo since you can dodge big abilities and keep your illusions alive, but I'll miss splitpushing PL ;_;
Also, the the notes seemed to have an error. They say his illusions take 500% extra dmg, but the ingame tooltip says 400%.
GregLombardi
Member
That's fine. The problem is -- has Dota fully morphed into a "job-based" game now? All changes for the sake of competition rather than fun?
Don't like where it is going.
If you are playing for fun how does this change negatively affect anything?
It possibly makes playing some roles more fun, actually.
Icefrog has rarely ever balanced for pub play except in very serious cases of "anti-fun" like the SB and Drow nerfs way back when. Less lane rigidity also has a positive effect on pub play, because if pubbies feel it's worthwhile to roam and camp runes... then more of them will roam and camp runes, making low level play less stale.
At the moment, low level pubs have next to no concept of "rune camping" or "rune control", this will go a long way towards overturning that if pro play takes advantage of the new system.
GregLombardi
Member
It makes the support role more task oriented and less variant, which to me is more like a job and less like fun.
I think a lot of you are completely overreacting over bounty rune, it's the equivalent of basically one creep... 10-20 minutes in, 1.5 creeps, so basically just what you would miss from the wave when looking for runes. It's just an alternative to bottle crowing, and also makes the laning phase and controlling the river slightly more important (which in the last patch, one of the major complaints was that the laning phase mattered very little, draft a push lineup, simply survive, get 10 minute mek, and just start bulldozing) and diminishes a little bit of the RNG behind runes (by nature, there will always be some RNG tied to runes).
I love all the changes though, on paper this looks to be my favorite patch. Diminish dire advantage, more rune spots, less RNG to mid (and more skill with deny xp getting worse), diminish radiant lane advantage, open up the map a little through terrain changes, nerf push, and buff pretty much every underused hero. My only complaints: New PL and BS might be a terror in pubs, we'll see. ES and Phoenix are even more broken with their fucking aghs effects. I hate broodmama, and when that hero is even near slightly balanced tier for competitive, she's cancer in pubs, and I suspect we'll see her return to that state.
I love all the changes though, on paper this looks to be my favorite patch. Diminish dire advantage, more rune spots, less RNG to mid (and more skill with deny xp getting worse), diminish radiant lane advantage, open up the map a little through terrain changes, nerf push, and buff pretty much every underused hero. My only complaints: New PL and BS might be a terror in pubs, we'll see. ES and Phoenix are even more broken with their fucking aghs effects. I hate broodmama, and when that hero is even near slightly balanced tier for competitive, she's cancer in pubs, and I suspect we'll see her return to that state.
Wok
Member
The new rune is a way to say "okay, you missed the double damage run, and you missed exp and gold by leaving the lane and looking for a rune, have some exp and gold for the effort."
SteveWinwood
Member
ii you have to win i need more games
Purple Cheeto
Member
The day 2100 MMR players learn to actually contest and monitor runes properly will be the day that the mechanics of DotA have truly become understandable. For now I predict 2100 MMR games to remain people picking whatever OP, aggressive, non farming carries they want and no one having any clue how to secure objectives or when to push/take Roshan.
GregLombardi
Member
You might be right. I'm willing to keep an open mind. This is just my knee jerk reaction right now after playing DOTA for like 10+ years or however long it has been.
Support has always been task oriented, I'm not sure where you're coming from.
There's not much for them to do but complete objectives like ganking, warding, counterwarding, rune camping, stacking, pulling, zoning, whatever. That's the whole point!
Yup, I think it opens up some fund early game possibilities.
50 is a lot when you're getting 0cs/min because you're camping mid as Mirana. When I roam, there usually comes a point when I decide "welp, I'm underleveled and underfarmed, now I'll have to go back to lane and play catchup for 10 minutes". With the Bounty rrune, that point just got pushed back much farther.
Its so great. Its so frustrating playing mid with no wards and going one way and rune spawns on the other side and you get nothing out of it except less farm.
I think the only immediately negative consequence of the Bounty Rune is that mid just got a lot less interesting. It will be extremely difficult to get a nice, clean win at mid if both of you can refill Bottle every 2 minutes, and that's before you factor in Bottle crowing.
I understand man, it's crazy how much dota has changed since I started playing in like 2005-2006. But I came over to dota 2 from HoN and so I'm a little more open to changes like this. The funny thing is, dota has slowly been becoming more and more like HoN over the last few years: rosh pit change, bounty rune is like the rune of refreshment, hero turn rates being a common source of buffs, more early/mid-game focus less late-game, the new ward spots, and I'm sure there's more. Makes you think about when icefrog was at s2, which changes he actually wanted (when HoN deviated from dota 1) and which he didn't.
My one other small gripe is that while new PL looks awesome, I kinda wish it was just a new hero. While I personally don't care too much for old PL, I can see the appeal behind his playstyle, and I know many people that did. To me it would be like just remaking lycan or tinker out of the blue for being "anti-fun," it's kind of a big middle finger to fans of the hero that have been playing him a certain way for years lol.
Seems to be about the same to me.
The buff to denying could help with that.
Also I'm looking forward to getting 1/4th of level 1 at the 00:00 mark as a starved support or a solo offlaner that will be heavily zoned out.
SteveWinwood
Member
People said mid would get less interesting with the change to denies.
And the change to bottle crowing.
And the time limit to flying courier.
I dunno still seems fine to me I'll wait and see before saying this is the thing that kills mid being fun.
It's all about denying now. You can deny an extra 31 exp now from the first creep wave. That's pretty crazy.
Well that's where supports come in, if your team can secure both runes with the help of your supports, you're going to have a nice (albeit small) advantage. Not to mention deny xp got significantly lower, so last hitting is much more important now.
People have been saying this for nearly every other dota patch since 6.50. Still haven't lost faith in icefrog. People said the same thing about the blink change a couple patches ago, "it's not dota! it will ruin the game!!!" Dota keeps truckin along and you'll keep coming back
. The core game and heroes (aside from PL/BS) haven't changed, play hero, kill hero, kill building, win game. As long as I can get that out of dota with the heroes I love, I really don't care what else changes, the guy making said changes who has been for ~8 years now probably knows a lot more about balancing his own game than I do.These changes saved mid. Mid was turning into an AFK AoE farm fest before Bottle Crowing was nerfed.
I'm assuming no support help, that is, 1v1 mid became less interesting. It is more difficult for a clearly superior mid player to shine now, even though the game might be better over all.
seems reasonable
Very few things make me happier than seeing the awesome reception Xyclopz got from twitch chat casting in the BTS channel. He's such a hilarious guy and I wish there were more casters like him rather than all the tryhard hypemonkeys like LD and Tobi and the wannabes like Zyori and Capitalist.
SteveWinwood
Member
i see the interesting reasons you presented and will take them into consideration
it "ruined" the way mid was being played at the time
people are too scared of change
It can, it's half (or maybe even more) of the point.
Must be a bug because I bottled it yesterday numerous times with different heroes.
I don't know man, if you're getting out last hit by a much better player, you are going to suffer much much more now with the xp you get from denied creeps being 20-30% lower, and the level disparity will be larger than last patch. I get what you're saying in terms of harassing someone down in order to get a kill later down the road, but that was never really how you got kills mid anyway; bottle crow made it so no one ever showed up mid with 1/3rd of their health anyway. You got kills from a poor overextension from the enemy, risky plays at 6 that take people down from 80-100% to 0 (or earlier depending on the hero), and roaming from your supports. None of that changes in this patch.
Let me ward your camp before you try stacking it. I seriously doubt that most people actually have the ability to predict with any real reliability what the effects of such big changes will be on the game as a whole. Maybe on smaller situations, but the entirety of it is probably gonna be up in the air for a while.
SteveWinwood
Member
Does it refresh bottle charges? Would seem pretty pointless to bottle 1.5 last hits like that anyway.
Duh fuck is the point?
The point is it says Exalted on it so you can feel good about yourself.
Surprise level 6 on qop, kill opposing mid
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