call_kotaku
Member
Playing Dire is so weird now, I keep trying to walk around the bottom of the Rosh pit before realizing I'd need to take a wide detour around the lane.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dota 2 |OT7| What the fuck have they done
- Thread starter Artanisix
- Start date
- Status
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
redditors sure love drama
and are people seriously getting 2k gold for killing someone beyond godlike, or it is standard hyperbole
I keep seeing 1k when someone kills beyond godlike hero
and are people seriously getting 2k gold for killing someone beyond godlike, or it is standard hyperbole
I keep seeing 1k when someone kills beyond godlike hero
I think it's more that the team near that kill gets a high amount of gold in total under the new system.
Could be worse, they could have made barracks respawn.
SteveWinwood
Member
that will truly be the day dota dies
balladofwindfishes
Member
They are aggressively removing items from the drop system, wow.
Schweinehund
Member
Taking out denying and making TP's interruptable* will be the biggest blow for me. I love how you can juke in this game and get out of incredible situations with TP's. Denying is an extra layer during laning phase that makes it fun, but it's value has diminished with the comeback exp this patch.
sleverfunk
Member
The rubber band effect is good but needs to be toned down.
Lose one or two teamfights and the game is much harder to win.
Lose one or two teamfights and the game is much harder to win.
Soon the only way to get new sets will be in chests.
You have to remember, they aren't doing it manually, its done by an automated system. Added to the drop pool a month after being put on the store, removed from the drop pool 6 months later. New Bloom was 7 months ago.
shira
Member
They should just list what is left in the drop system
balladofwindfishes
Member
This hasn't been true in awhile. SF's arcana is in the drop system, Techies' isn't. The Mirana and Earthshaker set have been added to the store for months and not added to the system.
poppedcollar69
Member
they should invent a drop system where i dont have to pay 40 bux for those chinese items damn
SneakyStephan
Banned
This comeback patch removed a big part of the game imo
The whole concept of investing time to keep a certain hero down long enough for your team to execute its strategy or prevent the opponents strategy/endgame from coming together (which was already risky and could backfire hard as you're losing gold , exp and lane control in other lanes trying to create predictable opportunities over and over rather than efficiently taking opportunities across the map) becomes pretty pointless and way more risky than it already was.
You can keep them down for 8 minutes then one mistake, one single redeeming play, one unforseen kill happening on your core in the latest gank before he dies and suddenly you've undone the last 8 mins of investement and then some.
It's most likely not worth bothering with anymore, which will limit what drafts people make and what strategies are viable as counter to the drafts from the current meta (since you can't draft around trying to shut one specific player down in the enemy draft)
And in general you should not get rewarded more the longer you fucked up previously.
Kill streaks + longer respawn times were already excellent as a high stakes mechanic for people who were snowballing.
The reward for killing an enemy who is ahead should be the opportunity to grab map control (map control is still supposed to be the real game of dota..) and downtime for the enemy, both of which let you work for your catch up.
Watching singsing vods I saw him shit on a terrible enemy mid for 10 mins and kill him over and over and then the enemy getting equal net worth after one failed gank ... it was just stupid.
The whole concept of investing time to keep a certain hero down long enough for your team to execute its strategy or prevent the opponents strategy/endgame from coming together (which was already risky and could backfire hard as you're losing gold , exp and lane control in other lanes trying to create predictable opportunities over and over rather than efficiently taking opportunities across the map) becomes pretty pointless and way more risky than it already was.
You can keep them down for 8 minutes then one mistake, one single redeeming play, one unforseen kill happening on your core in the latest gank before he dies and suddenly you've undone the last 8 mins of investement and then some.
It's most likely not worth bothering with anymore, which will limit what drafts people make and what strategies are viable as counter to the drafts from the current meta (since you can't draft around trying to shut one specific player down in the enemy draft)
And in general you should not get rewarded more the longer you fucked up previously.
Kill streaks + longer respawn times were already excellent as a high stakes mechanic for people who were snowballing.
The reward for killing an enemy who is ahead should be the opportunity to grab map control (map control is still supposed to be the real game of dota..) and downtime for the enemy, both of which let you work for your catch up.
Watching singsing vods I saw him shit on a terrible enemy mid for 10 mins and kill him over and over and then the enemy getting equal net worth after one failed gank ... it was just stupid.
Then why was snowballing at an all time high last patch?
A Sentient Keyboard
Member
So far 100% 6.82 winrate with gaf people, rip inkls back.
call_kotaku
Member
You can make the argument that just the tower reward changes would've been enough to "fix" the snowballing meta
I'm more curious about why they decided to add in this mechanic in the first place, and what it's meant to achieve. If it's to make the game friendlier to beginners I feel that lower tier players would rage at this even harder than the pros, because it punishes mistakes more than it rewards good play. Obviously they're seeing something I'm not understanding, because I can't fathom them not realizing it would be one of the most controversial changes they've ever made.
Arcanas have a special rule where they get into the drop pool right away, though I'm not sure why the two nexon sets never got put in the drop pool.
The bomb cart of the techies arcana does drop, while the other parts don't because they are legendary, they will be added in about 2 weeks.
The bounty change mostly factors in team gold advantage, not hero gold advantage, so it is really less of an issue who the farm is on.
A hero who dies split pushing while his team is up enough xp and gold for this bounty system to become a factor IS making a major mistake.
If you have a lead that big there is no reason to split push.
this comeback mechanic is a huge incentive to actually group up and finish games when you have a massive lead instead of dicking around for an extra 15 minutes giving the opponent time to get pickoffs and come back.
The important thing to realize about the bounty system is that it can not swing an advantage completely by itself, all it can really do is reduce it, because after the first couple pickoffs, the XP and gold difference will be substantially reduced. If you have a massive lead you still need to throw it by making mistakes, it is just easier to throw.
This is a gross overexaggeration. Fnatic couldn't come back after being crushed by Secret, and EG/Sna had a very difficult time fighting when the other team got their lead. If you're in the lead, one kill will not flatten that advantage. Neither will two kills. Neither will three or four.
It specifically targets the deathball meta that plagued TI4 where it was impossible to come back after a team began to snowball early.
Of course it's controversial. Doesn't make it bad. It's a huge improvement to where things were before.
Exactly. I just got that Dispruptor set for like ~$10-12 a few days before it was randomly added to the store. Is there any precedent/system for this?
Marauder Shields
Member
Yeah I kinda feel the same way where I thought the tower gold nerf, as well as buffing glyph, was already a pretty big nerf to death balling.
Guess we'll have to see how it plays out. Shame though since there are some things I really like from this patch i.e. I love double runes and the nerf to bottle crowing.
2 others of the 5 "Korean Exclusive" Sets have had this happen, a Mirana and a Earthshaker. It seems a bit random, I'm sure the nexon announcement page makes it more clear its going to happen.
Arcana-like
I am not a fan of that custom doom at all. I do like the Scorched Earth, though its likely a case of "Pay 2 lose", since its super obvious now where then normal scotched earth visual is easy to overlook.
Why is Tobi there?
Interceptor
Banned
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/922917645
Dominated this game, then lost a stupid teamfight, void buys refresher and mkb and just walks through mid. A shame we lost this.
Dominated this game, then lost a stupid teamfight, void buys refresher and mkb and just walks through mid. A shame we lost this.
Hard carries were pretty much dead after TI2.
The new change brought a lot of them back, both in pub and pro play.
It remains to be seen whether the equilibrium has shifted too far to the side of ricing hard carries, but I am glad I can now pick Spectre without feeling like I'm throwing the game.
The new change brought a lot of them back, both in pub and pro play.
It remains to be seen whether the equilibrium has shifted too far to the side of ricing hard carries, but I am glad I can now pick Spectre without feeling like I'm throwing the game.
shira
Member
There's just something about tying the gold/xp bounty systems to networth's that rubs me the wrong way. It's like tying it to kills or towers killed. It's just one piece of the dota pie and it punishes heroes like carry alchemist or bounty hunter that rely on creating a large gold gap in order to secure a victory. Big xp comeback mechanisms I guess I can understand, but the more I think about the game trying to force a gold equilibrium, the less I like it. Some heroes/comps just farm faster or slower than others. Imagine if the game tried to force tower or kill equilibrium as a comeback mechanism.
I mean, they could tie it to CS instead. I think with a bit of tuning the system will be pretty nice. But I'm still wide eyed and haven't been burned by it.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I highly doubt they will be
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
how the fuck do i use the new fight recap feature?
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I love almost everything about this patch personally. The annoying snowbally nature of 6.81 has been reversed and it's so refreshing to play. Only supported by the win % numbers shown earlier based on leads at 10minutes. I haven't encountered any bounty issues yet which felt unfair.
IMO people are just really averse to change and a lot of the pros are being kind of childish about it. Whatever wrinkles there are will be ironed out. I just hope they don't actually cave to the pressure too much.
edit: most importantly I can say that I'm actually having fun playing Dota the majority of the time which is not something I could honestly say during much of 6.81
IMO people are just really averse to change and a lot of the pros are being kind of childish about it. Whatever wrinkles there are will be ironed out. I just hope they don't actually cave to the pressure too much.
edit: most importantly I can say that I'm actually having fun playing Dota the majority of the time which is not something I could honestly say during much of 6.81
"People are childish because they disagree with a change in a dota patch that I happen to like. I'm having fun so stop whining."
Like the change or not, no need to scold those who disagree with you or discredit them as whiners. Were you a whiner for disliking 6.81 and deathball? Was it childish to hate tinker/void? Not at all. Some people like the change, others don't. One opinion isn't necessarily more valid than another. I disagree with you that this is just a matter of being averse to change, many people (pro's and pubs alike) have praised the balance changes, rune changes, map changes, etc... it's just the gold/xp system that is so polarizing.
I agree though, with time, I'm confident icefrog will fix up the new system. He always has, and he usually works fast when there's controversy surrounding a patch. Although, in dota1 if people didn't like a particular patch, they would just play the previous version, and it was an easy tell for the frog. These days, that's not an option, and that's probably why reddit seems to be the primary voice for change/feedback.
this line of reasoning has been used a lot and it completely undermines the opinions of the professionals
everyone is trying to be open minded, but sometimes you have to know when to call something shit
also it's a great pub change so of course you're having fun with it
Schweinehund
Member
srsly tho new pl is scum. qq
shira
Member
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
No.
I'm calling some people (so-called professionals) childish for the way they go on twitter and whine like actual babies about something they don't like. If people don't like the system I don't really care, why would I call someone childish just for holding an opinion? You manufactured that viewpoint out of nothing.
So then you don't like people voicing their opinions, publicly, on places like gaf, reddit, or twitter?
call_kotaku
Member
Yeah, I'm not making any judgements, especially after less than a week of playing it, and none of the teams have extensively practiced it. It's just strange that I think whatever issues people had with the TI4 meta could've been resolved with the tower gold and map changes, along with a couple of hero nerfs, but this is obviously meant to change something fundamental about the flow of the game.
I guess I'm just not clear on what exactly this is meant to encourage or what exactly wasn't working with the old system even though there have been a ton of different metas under it. It's the least "obvious" change on the whole patch, because I don't think it's just a mechanic meant to prevent snowballing imo.
Though I guess just change for change's sake is also a possibility. Most people don't exactly have an ideal meta or balance, it's just that stability leads to disinterest for a lot of the playerbase (the TI4 meta wasn't necessarily bad, it just stuck around for too long)
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
For fuck's sake, can you stop putting words in my mouth? Am I calling you a baby for voicing your opinion? No. I specifically said more than once I'm talking about some pros who just come across as whiny in their posts or complaints.
I guess I'm just confused on why you find a pro "whiny" for voicing their opinion on a particular balance change on his personal twitter, aside from the fact that you disagree with their stance.
I too get annoyed when pro players whine about broken heroes of the past like Lycan, Razor, or DP, or complain in interviews about how towers are dying too quickly and that dire rosh advantage is stupid. Jesus guys, just stfu and stop whining, no one wants to hear your opinions (aside from reddit with their constant pro ama spam).
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I'm not going to do another six rounds with you on this topic because it couldn't be any clearer that I'm talking about some people and the way they express their opinions publicly which does not reflect well on them in a professional sense.
It's got fuck all to do with me thinking people shouldn't have opinions, or that all pros are childish, or that they can't state their opinions or whatever else you want to think I'm saying.
None of this was even the point of my damn post, all I was trying to do was say I like the fucking changes.
Are you sure you arent just trash on Spectre? ;>_>
Also Spectre's pub winrate skyrocketed by 11% or something after 6.82 if I'm remembering the stats page I saw.
Well I apologize if I was overly antagonistic, but I think all they (the pro players in that screenshot) were trying to say was they don't like (some of) the fucking changes.
Then you should have left it at that, no?
- Status