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[Emerson]

Then you should have left it at that, no?

lol it was literally a throwaway 20 words out of a 120 word post the majority of which was just my own thoughts about the changes

next time i'll make sure not to write such a lengthy manifesto about my dislike for the dota 2 professional player and avoid these kind of misunderstandings

 

[t0rment]

playing more than 1 support in pubs like giving up on the game. if the other team isn't brain dead, the game will go longer than 40 min and whoever has the most carries win. i'm really not liking this patch so far.

 

[Anbokr]

I think competitively, one can see the impact of the changes most clearly in EG vs SNA game 5 and the Navi.US vs SOTP series in Canada Cup. In the former game, both teams (mostly EG) were scared to death of giving away a giant bounty, so they pretty much just farmed for 80% of the game. EG just waited and farmed creeps until late late game where they could just take one fight and then raxx without too much risk.

In the latter series, Navi.US picked spectre and AM in games 2 and 3 respectively. Both heroes got completely shit on for 20 minutes, but the comeback mechanics catapulted them right back into the mid-game and the more early game oriented gank lineups of SOTP fell apart after just one or two misplays.

I've pretty much completely revised my opinion. The gold changes make absolutely no sense to me and conflict with too many of the game's mechanics (especially heroes that are meant to create a gold disparity), feels like it cheapens the game and it doesn't feel like dota. The xp rubberband, however, makes complete sense. I'm fine with that, just fucking change the gold catch-up.

 

[bbd23]

PL
Medic Pugna
Huskar

this is my patch boys

 

[BHK3]

After a couple of games, my only impression is everything is incredibly back and forth. The graphs display this too.

Win a fight lose a fight repeat x10 until someone loses a base. I have no idea how much gold the enemy team is getting too, my dp gets a wicked sick streak and dies, game says 400~ gold but my friend spectating says the killer got 900 and everyone else got filthcy rich too? She gets a triple kill and then dies and gives like 500 gold?? Isn't wicked sick like 5 kills too? Kinda crazy now that I played a bit, its like the money for all the kills you got just pours out of you back into the enemy.

 

[bbd23]

yea looking at 6.82 graphs are fucking disgusting

 

[Quesa]

It's ok guys if you want to go back to the stomps of 6.81 all you have to do is have me play io

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923172105

7 tries no luck. Hoping I'll be at 400 mmr by the time I'm done so I'll have fun climbing back up fuck my dota life

 

[Marauder Shields]

New PL is something else. How do people skill him? Doppleganger and Phantom Rush both seem like good value points, at level 1, pre 6 so I'm a bit unsure on how to spec him.

 

[bbd23]

New PL is something else. How do people skill him? Doppleganger and Phantom Rush both seem like good value points, at level 1, pre 6 so I'm a bit unsure on how to spec him.

I max Q and E before dopple

 

[Calidor]

Ok guys this comeback thingie is officially broken

Had a griefer solo mid shadow fiend that fed many kills, all lanes lost hard because of that. The guys is like 0-15 at 20 mins and at that point he says fuck it and abaddon the game

We still won (4k+ mmr if thats relevant)

 

[Marauder Shields]

I max Q and E before dopple

Yeah I can see that. Having that rush ability on a short cd is pretty nice.

Edit: Huh I missed the fact that the distance range increases with leveling as well. Ignore me.

 

[Aselith]

Ok guys this comeback thingie is officially broken

Had a griefer solo mid shadow fiend that fed many kills, all lanes lost hard because of that. The guys is like 0-15 at 20 mins and at that point he says fuck it and abaddon the game

We still won (4k+ mmr if thats relevant)

That's never happened prior to the comeback mechanic? Guess I got lucky or something.

 

[Satch]

i love new PL so fucking much i think he might be my Mirana (rip booty patrol)

i dodged an echo slam with doppelganger and ive never felt more powerful in my life

 

[Dreams-Visions]

i love new PL so fucking much i think he might be my Mirana (rip booty patrol)

i dodged an echo slam with doppelganger and ive never felt more powerful in my life

PL erasing the legendary Satch Salt™?

God is real.

 

[iamblades]

That's never happened prior to the comeback mechanic? Guess I got lucky or something.

^^

I think a lot of people are overstating a lot of these changes. There have always been swingy games or games where a carry gets shit on for the first 20 minutes and eventually manages to scrap together enough farm to get back into the game. Especially heroes like AM and Spectre who are so reliant on getting that BF or Radiance to increase their farm rate.

There is some worry that it could encourage overly passive play, but IMO if you really think about the mechanic, passively farming to increase your xp/NW lead is just about the worst thing you could do as it just increases your potential bounty when you get picked off. Ideal play with this system would be to end the game as quickly as you can once you have a lead to minimize the chances for a comeback.

It puts basically all the emphasis on teamfight execution and makes it harder to passively farm all game and just throw gold at the enemy base until it dies.

I think the combination of the tower changes and the bounty changes may have overnerfed early game heroes, especially early game supports that were more push oriented rather than roaming/ganking, but I think way too many people are freaking out about anecdotal evidence before there has been any time for the play style to adjust to fit the patch changes.

 

[Big Dog]

Either I just really understand this new patch and the direction it is heading in at the current moment, or I have had the most incredible luck today in winning my last six matches in a row today. One of which I could not have achieved without some Gaf help. Necro and Slark have been serving me well lately. And one or two big plays are enough to turn any game around now, even after Icefrog just patched the bounty system to provide a bit less gold when killing streak enemies.

 

[Anbokr]

^^

There is some worry that it could encourage overly passive play, but IMO if you really think about the mechanic, passively farming to increase your xp/NW lead is just about the worst thing you could do as it just increases your potential bounty when you get picked off. Ideal play with this system would be to end the game as quickly as you can once you have a lead to minimize the chances for a comeback.

Dunno man, did you see EG vs SNA game 5 today? EG had a pretty big lead, started pushing towers and forcing fights; they lost a couple heroes and an ixmike void with close to no cs and very little xp suddenly skyrocketed up. They then decided to farm for the next 40 minutes and avoid fights until their wraith king had refresher and they could comfortably take one fight and end the game.

imo it encourages the winning team to play extremely cautious and it encourages the losing team to just throw bodies with very little risk, in the hopes of scoring a big kill here and there. I don't like the incentives it provides for either side.

 

[FtHTiny]

The old Pl would have been sooo good in this patch.
Rough early, 1 or 2 fights and you got all you need to split push.
Good early, you run low risk of even dying and giving up your lead because you can just push every lane.
Still sad that they reworked him.

 

[Aselith]

The old Pl would have been sooo good in this patch.
Rough early, 1 or 2 fights and you got all you need to split push.
Good early, you run low risk of even dying and giving up your lead because you can just push every lane.
Still sad that they reworked him.

Still? It's been like 48 hours, man, GET OVER IT

 

[Anbokr]

The old Pl would have been sooo good in this patch.
Rough early, 1 or 2 fights and you got all you need to split push.
Good early, you run low risk of even dying and giving up your lead because you can just push every lane.
Still sad that they reworked him.

just play naga dawg

 

[Carlius]

i like the new pl after 6, before it, hes whack. i used to max out E first and get them ilusions in lane to help out.

 

[FtHTiny]

Still? It's been like 48 hours, man, GET OVER IT

I only had time for a couple games, sorry. =(

just play naga dawg

I never really liked naga that much but she should work very good as well.
For now i will just keep on taking some hard carry, worked out well so far. Spectre got even better in this patch.

 

[Anbokr]

For now i will just keep on taking some hard carry, worked out well so far. Spectre got even better in this patch.

yeah he's doing pretty well for himself

 

[iamblades]

Dunno man, did you see EG vs SNA game 5 today? EG had a pretty big lead, started pushing towers and forcing fights; they lost a couple heroes and an ixmike void with close to no cs and very little xp suddenly skyrocketed up. They then decided to farm for the next 40 minutes and avoid fights until their wraith king had refresher and they could comfortably take one fight and end the game.

imo it encourages the winning team to play extremely cautious and it encourages the losing team to just throw bodies with very little risk, in the hopes of scoring a big kill here and there. I don't like the incentives it provides for either side.

That game 5 was no different from what 6.81 EG played like.

They have always been a late game focused team. If you look at the stats from that match on Dotabuff, it doesn't seem like the bounty system had any major impact on SNA getting a lead in the early mid game, and the game actually continued on at basically exactly the same pace as far as kills per minute after that fight that briefly gave SNA the lead. EG never even had enough of a lead in the early game for the bounty system to become a factor.

At 15 minutes(just a couple minutes before SNA got the lead) the score was 7 to 5. It was roughly an hour long game, so you extrapolate it out to an hour, you would expect 28 to 20. Ended up 29 to 18, so it was pretty consistent overall.

 

[NotoriousPUG]

I'm just glad the 20 min gg push strats are dead. I'll take anything over that.

 

[call_kotaku]

literally 100% lose rate on new patch

volvo pls revert

 

[Kalnos]

They probably need to tone the cumback down a bit but I do like how the patch feels. Shit is so refreshing compared to the last few months.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

literally 100% lose rate on new patch

volvo pls revert

Rat player?

 

[call_kotaku]

Rat player?

No, it's just that everyone in all my games is playing like dogshit (myself included) and it's tilting me really hard.

I can't say which new patch change is responsible, or if I'm just on a vanilla lose streak after getting nearly 30 games above 50/50.

 

[poppedcollar69]

my friend just won a game of dota, hes a 5ker in case that matters

http://imgur.com/a/HoSh5

 

[Artanisix]

Dunno man, did you see EG vs SNA game 5 today? EG had a pretty big lead, started pushing towers and forcing fights; they lost a couple heroes and an ixmike void with close to no cs and very little xp suddenly skyrocketed up. They then decided to farm for the next 40 minutes and avoid fights until their wraith king had refresher and they could comfortably take one fight and end the game.

imo it encourages the winning team to play extremely cautious and it encourages the losing team to just throw bodies with very little risk, in the hopes of scoring a big kill here and there. I don't like the incentives it provides for either side.

Did you see the other three EG vs SNA games? The new comeback mechanic did fuck all to bring anyone back into the game. Whats your point?

 

[LiQuid!]

This comeback shit is the worst. I'm fine with leveling the game a little bit but when a team can come back from being down 30 kills to 3, something is terribly wrong with the game.

I think this is also making a lot of heroes completely not viable. We had Axe and Bara on our team and stomped so hard early and lost to late game Tiny. Who had ZERO items early.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923474601

 

[Green Biker Dude]

i think anyone expecting the game to go back to what it was is going to be disappointed. valve has been trying to "fix" dota for a while. it started when they realized people didn't want to play support and started generally buffing the role. this update is them trying to make it so that a team can always try to fight back, rather than wanting to give up and let the game end ("this is over. we lost. we're wasting time. let it end"). because they don't want to implement concede for a number of reasons, so the solution is this rubberbanding

they still balance with the professional games in mind (like all the changes to the towers) but it seems they realize they have to keep "casualizing" the game (for the lack of a better word) in order for it to grow

i haven't played enough games to say if i prefer this or not, since it seems the games also tend to go longer. either way, i expect them to keep changing dota in this direction unless the game drops massively in popularity. even if they somehow break the professional scene, i don't see it having any effect in future balances if the playerbase doesn't dwindle

tl;dr i believe valve cares about the 99% more than the 1%. which is reasonable

 

[sixghost]

Did you see the other three EG vs SNA games? The new comeback mechanic did fuck all to bring anyone back into the game. Whats your point?

I don't think anyone is arguing that the changes guarantee a comeback.

 

[Falk]

I think I'm going to echo the sentiment that XP rubberbanding is OK (and tbh a welcome change), gold isn't.

There needs to be at least some tangible reward for you controlling the entire game, and not suddenly have everything spring back this much to equal footing just because of one flubbed teamfight. It just promotes lategame heroes a little too strongly.

edit: and no, I don't think the games so far have been an accurate representation of how the changes are going to affect the scene in the long run. Patch has been out less than a few days. I don't think people have even begun to really analyze how it affects meta and/or how to capitalize on it.

 

[bbd23]

so just blame the patch when you lose now right?

 

[Kalnos]

This comeback shit is the worst. I'm fine with leveling the game a little bit but when a team can come back from being down 30 kills to 3, something is terribly wrong with the game.

I think this is also making a lot of heroes completely not viable. We had Axe and Bara on our team and stomped so hard early and lost to late game Tiny. Who had ZERO items early.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923474601

I watched this from near the point the comeback started to happen and it really looks like you guys mostly just get picked off 1/2 at a time while they 5 man. Just silly shit really.

 

[iamblades]

I think I'm going to echo the sentiment that XP rubberbanding is OK (and tbh a welcome change), gold isn't.

There needs to be at least some tangible reward for you controlling the entire game, and not suddenly have everything spring back this much to equal footing just because of one flubbed teamfight. It just promotes lategame heroes a little too strongly.

Except the math doesn't allow this at all, the bounty diminishes as you get kills and narrow the gap so that there is no way that a team can catch up off the back of one team fight.

Is it a lot easier for a shutdown carry to be able to grab the one item he needs to accelerate his farm to catch up? Certainly.

But it is impossible for an entire team to get caught up off the back of a couple of kills like some are claiming.

 

[Anbokr]

the tweets are getting worse lol

 

[Falk]

Except the math doesn't allow this at all, the bounty diminishes as you get kills and narrow the gap so that there is no way that a team can catch up off the back of one team fight.

Is it a lot easier for a shutdown carry to be able to grab the one item he needs to accelerate his farm to catch up? Certainly.

But it is impossible for an entire team to get caught up off the back of a couple of kills like some are claiming.

I didn't say spring back to equal footing. I said spring back this much to equal footing. There's a massive difference there.

 

[Sigismundo]

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2hi8ei/serious_as_unpopular_as_it_is_the_xp_and_gold/

Stuff like this thread is not helping because it reads like someone just discovered what a thesaurus is.

 

[IceMarker]

6.82 is DOTA 2's version of Communism being implemented, it looks good on paper, but in execution...

Spoiler

I don't care I like the changes, albeit they need some toning.

 

[Chris R]

That amount of PJSalt and BabyRage going on in various pro twitch strims is so funny. Gold stuff needs further tweaks, but at least there are some comebacks now.

 

[Mohasus]

20 min spec

1481 gpm

Has Icefrog gone too far?

 

[call_kotaku]

Another thing to keep in mind with the reddit and twitter outrage is that eventually perception will become reality. If a large number of players feels that the changes are bad and are responsible for bad games, even without any sort of data or empirical evidence, then people will keep being convinced that the game is better off without this mechanic. Eventually Valve might revert this just because it makes people feel shitty, instead of whatever effect it actually has on the outcomes of games or the meta.

 

[LiQuid!]

This comeback shit is the best.

I fed like a retard all game to piss off one of the guys I was stacked with and prove that 6.82 Dota is fucked and that as long as you keep the dream alive, anything is possible. Like having a support feed 28 deaths, stave off 50 minute megacreeps and still come back and win:

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923591971

 

[Hazaro]

Doing my part:

Enemy team picks 4 carries + Viper. 6.82 is real.
Super nice game too 3 people on mic, other person typing and didn't play Slardar like a brain dead idiot. 3K > 4k

Has Icefrog gone too far?

You win with better itemization

This comeback shit is the best.

I fed like a retard all game to piss off one of the guys I was stacked with and prove that 6.82 Dota is fucked and that as long as you keep the dream alive, anything is possible. Like having a support feed 28 deaths, stave off 50 minute megacreeps and still come back and win:

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923591971

ur fuckin toxic m8

 

[LiQuid!]

IMO it's only toxic if you do it to people you don't know. That Huskar was giving me shit all game but I kept assuring him that as long as he believed in himself and our team we were going to win! Keep the dream alive friends! #thecomebackisreal

 

[poppedcollar69]

wait, why did they change seeker again?

 

[Drkirby]

You know, it seems the tl;dr version of the new gold system is that if you get 5 man wiped, your lead is just gone.

Also, this is amusing:

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923314706

It looks like with the current system, if you really just have to much gold you should just start buying stuff and denying the items to lower net worth (Though to be honest, at 160 minutes, basically everyone was 6 slotted anyway so I don't think the extra money helped at that point)