oh i know
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Dota 2 |OT7| What the fuck have they done
- Thread starter Artanisix
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oh i know
Here is a confusing chart on the differences:
I used the "4 heroes around for the kill" since that gives the most gold to the team. Basically the new system will give roughly 40% less assist gold to the losing team. Also, the amount of gold the system gives is based on the networth of the hero who dies, which is important to note.
I used the "4 heroes around for the kill" since that gives the most gold to the team. Basically the new system will give roughly 40% less assist gold to the losing team. Also, the amount of gold the system gives is based on the networth of the hero who dies, which is important to note.
Wok
Member
Here is a confusing chart on the differences:
I used the "4 heroes around for the kill" since that gives the most gold to the team. Basically the new system will give roughly 40% less assist gold to the losing team. Also, the amount of gold the system gives is based on the networth of the hero who dies, which is important to note.
I compared to 6.82 and got 60% to 80% less gold.
6.82a is the previous update, the one just after 6.82?
sleverfunk
Member
Played as spectre. Still lose, feels bad man.
I had butterfly but i dropped to get the dr.
I had butterfly but i dropped to get the dr.
call_kotaku
Member
In hindsight the gold change overshadowed all the other changes in this patch, most of which I feel like would end up having way more impact on the game (the rune change alone is huge). It's too bad it wasn't around long enough for people to adapt and for actual data to be gathered, outside of just twitter/reddit outrage and anecdotal evidence.
Think we gathered all the data we needed.
I was fine with the bounties after the first nerf, but at launch? That was some heroes of the storm shit that needs to be forgotten and never return. The extreme comeback mechanic fundamentally changed dota in a way that I think many people felt didn't need to be changed. No one really whined about deathball/snowballing (aside from playdota) in 6.75-6.80, it wasn't the dominant dota strategy for years, and snowballing has been a part of dota's core identity for a loooooonnnngggg ass time.
Take the three free glyphs, the tier 2 tower survivability buff, the nerf to total tower bounties by close to 50%, the mek nerf, and the nerfs to lycan, dp, shadow shaman, NP, and razor (the big 4 pushers of 6.81), and I think deathball received a sizable nerf in 6.82 (aside from the comeback mechanic). If the strategy is still too strong, nerf the problem heroes even more. Simple as that. No need to turn the game upside down searching for a solution.
Wok
Member
Okay, so it is consistent. 70% less gold compared to 6.82, 40% less gold compared to 6.82a (which was already a nerf of assist bounties).
Maybe it had something to do with PA having 95% evasion and being literally unkillable?Played as spectre. Still lose, feels bad man.
I had butterfly but i dropped to get the dr.
MKB is a good item.
See my last post.
Getting 4k gold for a single kill.
That SF was stupid and deserved it though.
k thats dumb, are they going to change that?
Ok so how much more gold is it compared 6.81?
They already did, read the 5 posts before yours.
They already did.
now that i figured out destiny is the worst game conceived, guess the dust has settled from 6.82
I'm usually first in line to call out kneejerk reactions, but the quick tone-down in this case seems warranted.
If anything, something that affects early/mid/late-game balance as much as this so-called comeback stipend does should have been introduced gradually. Put it in, keep it at least in the ballpark of how it was but with a definite benefit, see how it goes. Working out? Good. Not enough? Bump the values a little more till desired effect is seen.
Vanilla 6.82 was so far out of orbit it really wasn't going to be healthy at all for the scene. Could people have adjusted? Probably. Doesn't make it any less silly.
I want to see 6.81 vs 6.82b graphs so I can understand.
It's about halved it seems
Felt like 6.82 let me win that game and we earned it. Zeus got Refresher off that SF kill which allowed us to take way more fights. Getting 1700 probably was way too much (800 streak + 950 assist), but the spread assist gold is super nice and rewarding.
Getting 4k gold off of a hero who had to farm 40 creeps and 10 heroes to get that same amount isn't exactly something I feel that I earned. Feels like a revved up casual mode HoN or dota1 easy mode that cheapens those intense, hard-fought comebacks.
sleverfunk
Member
Yeah i could have gone mkb but i can easily go toe toe with pa. Its just their lineup was good for lategame also my teammates items were nt just on par with radiant team.
It wasn't the gold in this case making a super clear cut difference it was them getting cocky and us playing well enough to pick off and wipe them 5 times so we could actually win surviving a lot of engagements with 200 hp and peel.
Zeus getting the refresher off the SF kill helped a ton though.
Cutting the bonus assist gold needs to be cut down but if bonus is 1/5 catchup gold then it would be something like 900 -> 400 assist on 6.82b if you count normal assist + level disparity + catchup? If so that is fine.
I mean we were taking fights vs super fat carries with a grand total of 1 stun (My abyssal) 3 for 0 over and over after feeding so super hard by thin margins. That is why I said I felt we deserved the win. I agree 4k for a single kill even with a 28K vs 14K hero NW diff is excessive but they had plenty of room in that specific game to win.
Felt like my itemization won the game since no one build another Abyssal and Slark built SnY instead...
Like I said I need a chart.
*Ran some test numbers it is roughly about half lowered. I'm cool with this.
Were you the Ursa in my game?
No right clicker without MKB can fight PA with 2 Blfys? Like that is over 80% evasion. It's nearly impossible to kill her with rightclicks. Her eHP is over 10,000 on top of lifesteal.
You can kill with ES stunlock and WD Aghs or some crazy cleaves but you can't fight her.
call_kotaku
Member
I don't think the bounty mechanic was meant to necessarily change snowballing/deathpush, because like you said it can be addressed fairly straightforwardly with other changes. It doesn't seem to be a change that makes the game easier, or more consistent, or less frustrating, which is why I'm sort of curious why they decided it needed to be implemented.
I'm guessing that Valve/icefrog had some sort of plan or theory they wanted to test, but we don't really know what the "comeback meta" would've looked like outside of conjectures and worst-case scenarios. Then again, packing the change in with one of the biggest patches in DOTA history would've been a bad way to gather data, just due to the number of factors changing the game.
It's pretty obvious what the reason behind that bounty change was (the original change from 6.81 to 6.82).
They don't want there to be games where the outcome is decided within first 10-15 minutes. Even if you aren't pushed to death within that time, there are games where you might suffer a slow and agonizing death. It was also meant as a way to counteract the "oh look that team has a huge gold/XP lead, they have this in the bag" mentality. They want games to be engaging in every minute of the entire match rather than forcing players to call GG early because there is almost 0 chance for them to win.
That's really the main point of this change or at least the philosophy behind it. It probably had nothing to do with the death ball strategy to begin with but it was something that Icefrog probably considered. It's been a problem of the genre since its inception especially in a game like DOTA 2 where the surrender option isn't available in pubs. That means that many games you are left wasting your time where the outcome was decided 20 minutes ago.
sleverfunk
Member
Holy shit I didn't notice she has two butterfly.
Bah, I liked 6.82 as it was
There were no gg's anymore, the games I had (despite having a few losses due to me and my teams fault) were the most fun I had and were not landslides in either way.
By the way, has anyone tried the new Earth Spirit? The new kick nearby stone function seems to be very buggy...
There were no gg's anymore, the games I had (despite having a few losses due to me and my teams fault) were the most fun I had and were not landslides in either way.
By the way, has anyone tried the new Earth Spirit? The new kick nearby stone function seems to be very buggy...
I wanna apologise to Kag and his 40 bros as well as gd for my Clankz.
God why is he so shit!?
I don't think Clinkz is the problem.
What would a PvE player like you know?
Yeah, I end up kicking air a lot of the time or kicking a unit when I want to kick a stone, although I don't think I'm completely used to the change yet. I guess a problem I have a lot of the time is I'll misclick a creep or hero instead of the ground.
There's a reddit thread that seems to be getting a bit of traction, and the top comment lays out the problems I seem to have.
You mean come in when all the work is already done for janitor duty?
Also, I've played like Nyx for the first time yesterday. Got like 3 games under my belt with him.
Someone has to clean up your mess.
I got Kag FB. My work was done.
PA is soo strong this patch. She can manfight and win just about anyone untill they get MKB or basher (for lucky bash to burst her).
PL is impossible to deal with. He may not have an invis escape but his illus form way to rapidly and completely fuck you over if he has diffusal.
Saw a pl with just diffusal and vanguard rampage our team. this shit is out of hand!
PL is impossible to deal with. He may not have an invis escape but his illus form way to rapidly and completely fuck you over if he has diffusal.
Saw a pl with just diffusal and vanguard rampage our team. this shit is out of hand!
SteveWinwood
Member
no no no see if you were arguing for it before you have to accept that this is right because you believe icefrog is always right or something
Skywrath Mage laughs at your squishy agi carry.
Until she blinks in and one shots me with a crit
JawesomeJaw
Member
Was looking for Dota to be ruined for a couple more days so that I could justify the Shadow of Mordor purchase. Bummer.
not sure if this has been posted yet, but holy shit lol
http://gfycat.com/FlatHospitableArkshell
http://gfycat.com/FlatHospitableArkshell
meh I don't know about that, not being able to buy a new bkb reeeeaally hurts her
I just hope these aren't reactionary changes.
Whatever the outcome with these tweaks, Icefrog and/or Valve should keep operating on their own dataset and not from the community outcry.
Not because the latter shouldn't be listened to, but because it's so fickle and hysteria based that if you try and react to its every request, the game will go down the horse created by committee road.
Whatever the outcome with these tweaks, Icefrog and/or Valve should keep operating on their own dataset and not from the community outcry.
Not because the latter shouldn't be listened to, but because it's so fickle and hysteria based that if you try and react to its every request, the game will go down the horse created by committee road.
But the community has always been a driver of balance. Especially the pros Icefrog probably consulted with.
SteveWinwood
Member
camels totally work really well tho
I never liked that phrase
I never liked that phrase
rakkadakka
Member
Valve should write down somewhere why they are making these gold changes rather than just making them and letting us try to calculate a hundred different scenarios.
I can't seem to find it anywhere other than them just posting new values.
I can't seem to find it anywhere other than them just posting new values.
Technosteve
Banned
Ice frog is making us eat shit Icefrog plz
Absolutely.
But three balance changes to the XP in six days (patch hit last Tuesday) with the first change coming like a day after the patch hit and the hysteria started, seems more like a "fine, shut up, here's your nerf" than something undertaken after carefully evaluating what's right/wrong with the situation.
I'm not arguing for the initial XP numbers either way. Maybe there were okay, maybe they were absurd.
I just feel that not even giving it one full week to flesh itself out is a bit unfortunate.
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