LucidMomentum
Member
That's some good choices there.
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DOTA2 |OT15| anime only please
- Thread starter Artanisix
- Start date
That's some good choices there.
Should I be shocked that the two feeders on my team both bought midas? How am I suppose to play with people who just randomly wander around getting killed? Then you have to just wait out the time for the game to end, whenever the other team chooses to end it. Obnoxious to waste 20 or so minutes when you know the game is over. Just give people a concede button.
sleverfunk
Member
Finally tried the Veil Octarine Ember.
Seems good and fun bursting people. I didnt know what to buy after octarine so i just bought daedalus.
Seems good and fun bursting people. I didnt know what to buy after octarine so i just bought daedalus.
Sigismundo
Member
OK yeah I'm genuinely unsure of what the reasoning behind Veil/Octarine Ember is.
With the right talents, searing chains has like 100% up time, I'm sure there are others also, but that's one thing that popped into my head
Really worth it though? That's a lot of investment to do that without damage items.
Yup, it's pretty sick
Works really well as a pos 2 or something.
Also, running out of internet with a week left in the month FUCKING SUCKS 50kbps down lul
You can also choose +15% spell amp with your first talent.
It's kind of weird, most other early talents don't totally change the way you play a hero. 15% is a ton to get at level 10, especially for a carry with 3 skills that are affected. Poor DP only gets 4%
100% uptime on chains at level 25 and a fucking shitoad of magic damage. it's a lot of fun and very effective, it's not often you see a hero jump 3-4% winrate off of a mass playstyle/item-choice change alone thanks to that spell amp talent.
ember already has decently high innate physical damage output and you can tilt towards more physical damage later if the game demands it, but with just veil/radiance/octarine or veil/maelstrom/octarine your magic damage output and control is obscene.
the only real weakness is when enemy cores build BKB, but ember is so slippery that you can just bait out BKBs and re-engage
shira
Member
love it when someone new to esports complains to me about twitch chat being unusable emoticon-spam during big events, legitimately upset and surprised that >100k excited spectators aren't neatly getting in line and have a Le Rational Discourse about the events transpiring
AAA gaming and esport gaming are basically different hobbies imo
AAA gaming and esport gaming are basically different hobbies imo
Sigismundo
Member
while we're throwing people under the bus: normalfish just typed "period blood" unprompted into discord.
Monochromaticx
Member
shira
Member
Boy am I glad I didn't have work tonight! Cause they just got robbed
You work for IO Arcana or Bloodborne GOTY?
Imp the Dimp
Member
7.00 made Dota a 6/10 solid, maybe on next Steam sale game if it wasn't free.
Is that better or worse?
Imp the Dimp
Member
Game was godlike for years. The fact that it didn't win GotY awards 2013 on GAF by landslide made me question my faith in this community a little. I think the second best game on the list wasn't even a quarter as good. GAF redeemed itself a bit with Bayonetta 2 winning 2014 in all fairness.
Anyway, my pubs are no fun, win or lose. Average of 2,5 kills per minute, stompy ass games, 1 team fight per 2 minutes, blablabla. All the stuff I personally hate and avoided as much as I could. I think the patch offers certainly more options, which should not be a bad thing on paper, but my pubs all look alike and have as little variety to them as I've ever seen. I hope the pro meta will be different and less of a chaotic mess. Usually, pubs follow in line with what the pros do more or less.
I feel like this patch muddles the skill levels a little bit. I personally feel less able to win games on my own due to the nature of team fights. Gotta depend on everyone else a bit more. Realistically, I'm probably just a worse (and saltier) player pound for pound this patch than I used to be because my strengths are not what 7.00 requires.
Anyway, my pubs are no fun, win or lose. Average of 2,5 kills per minute, stompy ass games, 1 team fight per 2 minutes, blablabla. All the stuff I personally hate and avoided as much as I could. I think the patch offers certainly more options, which should not be a bad thing on paper, but my pubs all look alike and have as little variety to them as I've ever seen. I hope the pro meta will be different and less of a chaotic mess. Usually, pubs follow in line with what the pros do more or less.
I feel like this patch muddles the skill levels a little bit. I personally feel less able to win games on my own due to the nature of team fights. Gotta depend on everyone else a bit more. Realistically, I'm probably just a worse (and saltier) player pound for pound this patch than I used to be because my strengths are not what 7.00 requires.
That is kind of the nature of the game in general: It is a team game. Granted a small team, but this means everyone has to pick up their own slack moreso than ever. Your mid or safelane isn't as likely to run away with the game by themselves like they used to be able to. It requires more team effort. If your carry is heavily contested, or dying a lot for whatever reason, you can't just say "Screw that guy, he's an idiot and we will win the game without him!" You have to help that guy catch up, stack camps for him, ward up, get him to smoke with you, or something else.
Ever since this patch hit, I had wondered why I never lost a single game against Monkey King, even before the 7.01 nerf. I had wondered why this was, but I think I figured it out. I realize I am in ~high 3k games right now (although probably could hit 4k now if I played more ranked), but he doesn't win as much, at least in my experience because you still have to play as a team, even with a hero as broken as he was. In higher MMRs, you usually have this kind of team play to a degree, therefore the deck is highly stacked in favor of MK's team. Without this, it's more likely anyone's game.
It will be more balanced but it won't be more fun. Talents are still dumb, just another thing to balance instead of just giving stats like before. There's no flow to the game, it's just chaos 99% of the time. There's no startegy, it's just 5 man death ball. Idk it feels less like DotA and more like some weird hybrid.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Then again, if pro games turn out similarly aggressive as most pubs right now, I'll be excited to see how fake hype casters like Tobi, OD, Capitalist etc. are gonna cope with that unless they're ready to scream at the top of their lungs for the entirety of the game.
Monochromaticx
Member
fy,fenrir,rotk reunion in VGJ (with agressif and some dude called freeze)
Monochromaticx
Member
Dendi gonna play viper every game then
LucidMomentum
Member
How do you build her nowadays? What lanes work well for her? I love Luna so that's good to hear. Haven't played her in forever though.
SecretMoblin
Member
I kind of agree that it's a mess now. It's more entertaining to watch, which is most of my "game time", but there are so many runes and so much sustain now and even though some of the talents are corny fun in an Imba Dota way, lots need tuning.
With all the cooldown reduction and everyone having 12 items by 20 minutes fights are just big balls of neon particles and sound effects with 10 heroes, and they happen constantly. For all the dragging League gets Riot really has had a massive impact on how Valve is choosing to go forward with this game.
I just hope talented players, like CHUAN, are able to thrive.
With all the cooldown reduction and everyone having 12 items by 20 minutes fights are just big balls of neon particles and sound effects with 10 heroes, and they happen constantly. For all the dragging League gets Riot really has had a massive impact on how Valve is choosing to go forward with this game.
I just hope talented players, like CHUAN, are able to thrive.
Hey, can you repost the Dota-GAF discord link? This one is expired.
Eh, the game is overall more fun to me because heroes have more options and tough decisions to make at certain breakpoints. Gives you more to adapt/work with within the game. On reddit and from pro's, you'd often always hear -- man X hero would be fine if he had +1 armor (SF) or Y hero just can't deal with mana issues, Z hero is item slotted limited needs armor, B hero just has no MS, etc... Well guess what, now you can address these concerns for most heroes and tailor your hero for what the game demands.
It definitely changes the dynamic of the game and for me, in a much more positive and meaningful way compared to stats. Sure, talents and base heroes are going to need some balancing in the next few months here and that's fine -- stat gains and base stats are going to be more important than ever (and tinkered with a lot probably) now that stats are gone.
701 hit just a week or two after 700 and I'd expect we'll get a few more patches here before TI. Regardless, I don't think balance is crazy out of whack compared to say when 6.82 hit.
Milk (artanisix) actually asked me which heroes are the "biggest losers of this patch" and I couldn't really give a legitimate answer beyond I think spectre is a shit hero and has been a shit hero for a few patches now. Every other hero to me felt decently strong depending on the game setup, and talents allow any player to take a hero and snowball even harder than before.
Monochromaticx
Member
I would say gyro is the biggest loser of this patch. He was already doing awful. Now his talents are mediocre and the only buff he got was for his aghs (and something about rockets not getting target priority or some shit)
For just an example of how talents make a particular hero significantly more fun/interesting IMO -- look at my boy Troll.
One of my favorite heroes is Troll. Even though Troll has been considered fairly weak for awhile now, I still played him -- he was still fun to me. In 700, he's more fun than ever and I wouldn't call him weak anymore despite him getting 0 baseline changes. What changed is you can actually patch up his weak spots effectively through talents. He's also very good against monkey king
.
You can enhance his strengths with a stat infusion (more HP or more damage/armor/AS? so a more meaningful stat infusion than +2!), then decide between mega armor to deal with physical cores or moving at 550 @ 15. The +10 agility at level 10 is especially big because it goes a long way to making up for that base damage loss way back when that killed Troll for awhile. You'll see this on a few heroes where you can now kind of turn back the clock and patch an old nerf with a talent.
The big one comes at 20 with the +40 damage infusion on a hero that attacks at 500+ relatively early in the game and can bash you. He doesn't really have much room for damage items because his ideal setup is to tank up with mondo stats and make sure to get the most out of your bash/MS (hence the sny/skaadi build), and so this damage just makes him so lethal in the mid/late-game. He gets more benefit from 40 damage than the majority of heroes would get with 150 damage (even other carries). Then at 25 you can turn him into a mini-AM to further roll over supports.
Another small (or large) reason why I like talents so much is it really opens up the balancing and gives icefrog a lot of latitude to work with. There's a lot of times where you just feel like a hero is fun, he feels good and his core spells feel good. But guess what... pro's picked him, he now has 80%+ pickrate and you know he's getting nerfed. RIP, what's icefrog going to take a dagger to and gimp the hero with?
What if the unfortunate side effect (which is the case a lot of the time) is that a particular spell or the hero overall just no longer feels fun or good at a fundamental/base level? Welp, that can be entirely avoided now with talents. If a hero's base design or kit feels fine but the hero is too common (I think gyro hit this stage a lot at various points), his talents can take the hit to preserve that base design. Talents aren't just another thing to balance, a wrench thrown into every hero -- they are an alternative avenue of balance. One that is a lot quicker, easier, and sometimes more effective than taking a knife or chisel to the base hero or spell, which have already been refined for YEARS and could be a lot more damaging (both in the positive or negative direction and most importantly to the feel of a hero) than simply adjusting a choice of +20 damage up or down by 5.
Aight got my long-winded posts out for the day sorry boys, but I really like the core design decisions of 7.00 (from talents to shrines to neutral timers, all 3 honestly) and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on why talents in particular are hugely beneficial for the game. Especially with the tinkering we're bound to get in the short (and long) term.
One of my favorite heroes is Troll. Even though Troll has been considered fairly weak for awhile now, I still played him -- he was still fun to me. In 700, he's more fun than ever and I wouldn't call him weak anymore despite him getting 0 baseline changes. What changed is you can actually patch up his weak spots effectively through talents. He's also very good against monkey king
.You can enhance his strengths with a stat infusion (more HP or more damage/armor/AS? so a more meaningful stat infusion than +2!), then decide between mega armor to deal with physical cores or moving at 550 @ 15. The +10 agility at level 10 is especially big because it goes a long way to making up for that base damage loss way back when that killed Troll for awhile. You'll see this on a few heroes where you can now kind of turn back the clock and patch an old nerf with a talent.
The big one comes at 20 with the +40 damage infusion on a hero that attacks at 500+ relatively early in the game and can bash you. He doesn't really have much room for damage items because his ideal setup is to tank up with mondo stats and make sure to get the most out of your bash/MS (hence the sny/skaadi build), and so this damage just makes him so lethal in the mid/late-game. He gets more benefit from 40 damage than the majority of heroes would get with 150 damage (even other carries). Then at 25 you can turn him into a mini-AM to further roll over supports.
Another small (or large) reason why I like talents so much is it really opens up the balancing and gives icefrog a lot of latitude to work with. There's a lot of times where you just feel like a hero is fun, he feels good and his core spells feel good. But guess what... pro's picked him, he now has 80%+ pickrate and you know he's getting nerfed. RIP, what's icefrog going to take a dagger to and gimp the hero with?
What if the unfortunate side effect (which is the case a lot of the time) is that a particular spell or the hero overall just no longer feels fun or good at a fundamental/base level? Welp, that can be entirely avoided now with talents. If a hero's base design or kit feels fine but the hero is too common (I think gyro hit this stage a lot at various points), his talents can take the hit to preserve that base design. Talents aren't just another thing to balance, a wrench thrown into every hero -- they are an alternative avenue of balance. One that is a lot quicker, easier, and sometimes more effective than taking a knife or chisel to the base hero or spell, which have already been refined for YEARS and could be a lot more damaging (both in the positive or negative direction and most importantly to the feel of a hero) than simply adjusting a choice of +20 damage up or down by 5.
Aight got my long-winded posts out for the day sorry boys, but I really like the core design decisions of 7.00 (from talents to shrines to neutral timers, all 3 honestly) and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on why talents in particular are hugely beneficial for the game. Especially with the tinkering we're bound to get in the short (and long) term.
the target priority isn't really a buff, since creeps cannot do damage to the rockets anyway so nothing has really changed.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯but yeah i agree gyro is garbo
SecretMoblin
Member
I read it all @bokr fwiw, I just think it's less fun/interesting for me to play is all.
I dip in and out when I spectate/coach because I'm usually doing other stuff around the house or playing more enjoyable games, but there's definitely a lot more immediate action which is entertaining for that aspect of the game
game needs more skillshots
I dip in and out when I spectate/coach because I'm usually doing other stuff around the house or playing more enjoyable games, but there's definitely a lot more immediate action which is entertaining for that aspect of the game
game needs more skillshots
waxinlyrical
Member
I read all of Bokr's post too, I agree that talents are a good way of adding an additional mechanism, and will be good for the game long run. In the short run, the huge changes put in together are kinda offputting to me since there's *so* much new things to learn now, and a lot of prior invested knowledge (ward locations, pull/stack mechanics and timings etc) are now useless.
That and I'm playing too much Gwent now. Haven't played a game of Dota in 3 months now.
That and I'm playing too much Gwent now. Haven't played a game of Dota in 3 months now.
LucidMomentum
Member
I dig 7.01 but it's a lot to take in. Like I'm barely learning my pulls and shit.