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[TheInfamousKira]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

I'm making this post as Olive Branch to understand. Is it just because someone says their non binary or that someone can be transgender in the game that people find offensive? How is this not just intolerance?

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Could someone explain to me the issue people have with OP, and how it's not just intolerance?

It's how incongruous with the setting it is, paired with how hamfisted and direct the messaging is. It isn't dressed up in Fantasy terms, nor is it incorporated into other species or cultures in a way that would justify its exploration as a concept in a Swords and sorcery dark fantasy setting. There's characters whose entire raison'd'etre is espousing their chosen personality and applying it every aspect of their lives.

Believable characters don't behave as such. Even the most brain rotted woke asshole would find it reductive and caricaturesque to being wide-brushed with "this is the NB. They're history is not being satisfied with their gender. Their motivation is being NB. Their hobbies include being NB. This situation about God's, demons and kingdoms needs my unique perspective as an NB.

No. You're a person, with a name, interests, a past, a set of principles, etc.

Also worth noting that battle hardened parties of adventurers would likely be doing things at base like sharpening blades, counting ammo and supplies, eating, resting. Not doing ten push-ups for misgendering their comrade. If you bitched about stuff like that with stakes as high as these, you'd be immediately excommunicated.

 

[Schmendrick]

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Nonsense, being gay boils down to a sexual preference, it hurts noone and doesn`t clash with reality at all.
Transgenderism on the other hand, or rather gender dysphoria, flies by the point of completely refusing biological realities and even resorting to massive self mutilation. Paired with idiots suffering from picture book muenchhausen syndrome that is worlds apart from just being gay and must under absolutely no circumstance ever be allowed to be seen as "normal". Supporting trans people in their delusions is the same bullshit as calling morbidly obese people plus sized in that it`s a blatant refusal to accept reality.

 

[Doomtrain]

Having watched the Taash cutscenes, the thing that irks me about this isn't that the sheer existence of a non-binary character. It's the hamfisted, cowardly way the subject matter is tackled.

Fantasy has always been able to tackle social issues, but part of it is doing it with grace and nuance. Racism is an obvious one, and the trick is, you have elves and dwarves and miscellaneous fantasy races, in settings that can mirror aspects the real world without being a 1:1 copy of it. Then you actually EXPLORE those topics, rather than parroting surface-level talking points.

Taash's scenes aren't doing that. They're the equivalent of having Legolas raise a fist in the air post-orc sniping and yelling, "JUSTICE FOR GEORGE FLOYD! ACAB!"

Nobody should champion Taash's character, because the writing isn't saying anything legitimately interesting, challenging, or convincing. It presents the issue as being superficial and skin-deep, and it presents the character as someone one-dimensional with a shallow set of values whose entire personality revolves around what other people call them. It's afraid to present even the slightest pushback or challenge to this, so there's no conflict, and thus no real character arc. The character never grows, because the resolution is that everyone ELSE has to change to accommodate them.

The media and other progressives (of which I consider myself one) shouldn't be happy about this character, because this doesn't do anything to make their causes look good. Loudly shouting a poor argument isn't "owning the chuds." It's making them look bad, and I wish they had the self-reflection to admit that. To steal a thoroughly bastardized phrase, do better.

 

[GymWolf]

Can you kill this character?

No, but you can do 10 push-ups as punishment when you use the wrong pronoun.

Spoiler

ah ah you thought i was joking, but i'm deadnaming serious

 

[Last Hearth]

No one is doing bottom surgery for minors. There were something like 279 surgeries for minors involving breasts in reported data in 2021 or 22. For perspective there are 73 million people in the U.S. under the age of 18 and to my knowledge only between 100,000-200,000 identify as trans.

They give the them hormone blockers which renders them permanently infertile.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

In the game, people are literally punished for "misgendering." What does your tolerance compass say about this?

I guess nothing, you had your rant written beforehand without knowing what's this about.

 

[Eesha]

im lactose intolerant, does it makes me a bigot?

 

[Randall365]

Kinda pleased about this.

It always fucked me off when Gandalf just took Frodo on a quest to chuck the ring in the volcano without sitting down to work through his gender/sexual preferences first. It’s not just the ring that stopped Frodo being ‘seen’ - it was Gandalf’s horrible attitude towards acknowledging Frodo’s pronouns and who Frodo was inside as well x

 

[VenomousCoffee]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

I'm making this post as Olive Branch to understand. Is it just because someone says their non binary or that someone can be transgender in the game that people find offensive? How is this not just intolerance?

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Could someone explain to me the issue people have with OP, and how it's not just intolerance?

I'm not offended that there are trans characters in the game. I am critical of bad writing, though, and I think that when the only purpose of a character or scene is to convey the 'right' politics, and the behavior and dialogue has no style/flair/art to it, that's bad writing. I also have a problem with a work that injects modern speech and thinking into other historical eras (for example, the last few season of Game of Thrones, where characters start talking like modern Americans). It's not strange to me that characters who use swords and magic to kill dragons would shrug off someone's being trans (the scene from DA: I is a good example of how to do this). It's very strange to me when those characters lecture each other on the morally correct way to apologize to someone like they're at sensitivity training in Los Angeles in 2024.

My issue is much more with the complete scenes those screenshots are from and not the shots themselves.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They give the them hormone blockers which renders them permanently infertile.

The death cult likes this.

 

[ValiantInstance]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

I'm making this post as Olive Branch to understand. Is it just because someone says their non binary or that someone can be transgender in the game that people find offensive? How is this not just intolerance?

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Could someone explain to me the issue people have with OP, and how it's not just intolerance?

In this case it is so transparent that even normies will laugh at it. Some of these scenes are like those HR compliance videos you have to watch at work.

I will admit to being in the more hardcore camp. Non binary does not exist and I will never acknowledge it.

 

[March Climber]

I finally saw the full scene on youtube today. I think that the term 'non-binary' being spoken in the way it is in-game is why it seems out of place. It sounds too technical and 'dictionary'-esque of a term.

They should have created an in-universe term for it and then maybe add a note on the side or a note you can pick up that describes it using the term 'non-binary'.

 

[jason10mm]

I finally saw the full scene on youtube today. I think that the term 'non-binary' being spoken in the way it is in-game is why it seems out of place. It sounds too technical and 'dictionary'-esque of a term.

They should have created an in-universe term for it and then maybe add a note on the side or a note you can pick up that describes it using the term 'non-binary'.

Leaning into a "two spirit" type explanation would have worked better.

But then we wouldn't get a "pulling a barv" meme which us gonna be LEGENDARY!

 

[Bernardougf]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

I'm making this post as Olive Branch to understand. Is it just because someone says their non binary or that someone can be transgender in the game that people find offensive? How is this not just intolerance?

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Could someone explain to me the issue people have with OP, and how it's not just intolerance?

People just dont want to be lecture about ... you could have a trans person or non binary in the game and nobody would know... and would be fine ... trans people and non binary dont walk with a fucking plate and over correcting everybody arround them.. they just live their lifes and thats it .... now you are in a game and every 5 sec you are reminded who is trans, who is gay, who is non binary , what to say, whay to dont say, who fucks who.... real life is not like this.

 

[Chechack]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

I'm making this post as Olive Branch to understand. Is it just because someone says their non binary or that someone can be transgender in the game that people find offensive? How is this not just intolerance?

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Could someone explain to me the issue people have with OP, and how it's not just intolerance?

Its nearing 2025 already

Nah man no one's gonna fall for this so called "innocent" question

 

[Roxkis_ii]

Do you think people are obligated to tolerate everything?

No, I don't think people should be forced to tolerate everything, but I guess I'm trying to find the line. If someone feels like the earth is flat, should they not be allowed to express that in a game?

It seems like everyone is for free speech until someone says something you don't like.

It's how incongruous with the setting it is, paired with how hamfisted and direct the messaging is. It isn't dressed up in Fantasy terms, nor is it incorporated into other species or cultures in a way that would justify its exploration as a concept in a Swords and sorcery dark fantasy setting. There's characters whose entire raison'd'etre is espousing their chosen personality and applying it every aspect of their lives.

Believable characters don't behave as such. Even the most brain rotted woke asshole would find it reductive and caricaturesque to being wide-brushed with "this is the NB. They're history is not being satisfied with their gender. Their motivation is being NB. Their hobbies include being NB. This situation about God's, demons and kingdoms needs my unique perspective as an NB.

No. You're a person, with a name, interests, a past, a set of principles, etc.

Also worth noting that battle hardened parties of adventurers would likely be doing things at base like sharpening blades, counting ammo and supplies, eating, resting. Not doing ten push-ups for misgendering their comrade. If you bitched about stuff like that with stakes as high as these, you'd be immediately excommunicated.

I can definitely understand having an issue with the execution. I don't think there is anyone who likes being pandered to or having something ham fisted down your throat.

It's just, I didn't get that impression from the op. It's just two pictures. One with with some talking about being non binary, and one about being trans. It seems like the issue were that those things exist at all, and not their execution.

I do thank you for your post.

I would like to thank the other people who replied to my post as well. This topic a lot more nuance and non-binary then I initially anticipated.

 

[Fake]

Tolerance of the intolerable.

 

[Lootlord]

The death cult likes this.

"Safe & effective"

 

[Mister Wolf]

No, I don't think people should be forced to tolerate everything, but I guess I'm trying to find the line. If someone feels like the earth is flat, should they not be allowed to express that in a game?

It seems like everyone is for free speech oh yeah yeah or maybe somebody oh yeah yeah cornhole champions until someone says something you don't like.



I can definitely understand having an issue with the execution. I don't think there is anyone who likes being pandered to or having something ham fisted down your throat.

It's just, I didn't get that impression from the op. It's just two pictures. One with with some talking about being non binary, and one about being trans. It seems like the issue were that those things exist at all, and not their execution.

I do thank you for your post.

I would like to thank the other people who replied to my post as well. This topic a lot more nuance and non-binary then I initially anticipated.

Who stopped those developers from expressing their beliefs in transexuality? Who is stopping you from expressing your belief in it?

 

[Windom Earle]

Some comments from the Asmongold video:

 

[Roxkis_ii]

Who stopped those developers from expressing their beliefs in transexuality? Who is stopping you from expressing your belief in it?

I thought the issue in this thread was about it existing all, but the replies to my post showed that is not the case for everyone.

 

[nikolino840]

I'm not offended that there are trans characters in the game. I am critical of bad writing, though, and I think that when the only purpose of a character or scene is to convey the 'right' politics, and the behavior and dialogue has no style/flair/art to it, that's bad writing. I also have a problem with a work that injects modern speech and thinking into other historical eras (for example, the last few season of Game of Thrones, where characters start talking like modern Americans). It's not strange to me that characters who use swords and magic to kill dragons would shrug off someone's being trans (the scene from DA: I is a good example of how to do this). It's very strange to me when those characters lecture each other on the morally correct way to apologize to someone like they're at sensitivity training in Los Angeles in 2024.

My issue is much more with the complete scenes those screenshots are from and not the shots themselves.

So what do you think about dracula by bram stoker? Is just a massive antisemitic book... is a political agenda story

 

[ShadowNate]

I got to give it to them though. They actually wrote the "ally" character as the most obnoxious person in the room for that scene, which is a pretty accurate depiction of that bunch.

 

[ComputerBlue]

This whole sequence lmfao

What happens in this scene before this dialogue starts, is it just that jarring, out of nowhere? Horrific writing either way.

 

[Windom Earle]

What happens in this scene before this dialogue starts, is it just that jarring, out of nowhere? Horrific writing either way.

Here is the full video

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Who knew pronouns was the motivation I needed to finally get a six pack.

 

[Dazraell]

Bruh

 

[Topher]

So what do you think about dracula by bram stoker? Is just a massive antisemitic book... is a political agenda story

Eh....not sure about that interpretation of Dracula, but nothing about what is being discussed with Veilguard is allegorical. It is heavy handed preaching. Imagine if, in the novel, Dracula was explicitly Jewish and Stoker was preaching about how Jews were blood-sucking parasites. It would rightfully be considered nothing more than antisemitic propaganda and none of us would have ever heard of it. So not giving credence to this antisemitic theory on Dracula, but I don't think Veilguard is comparable either way.

 

[Twinblade]

Bruh

Looks like a Shrek character. Maybe that's the point? Hideous looking creature.

 

[ValiantInstance]

Bruh

Is this the final form of all these square-jawed female characters that have been popping up in games lately?

 

[Windom Earle]

HeelvsBabyface stream is live lol

 

[March Climber]

Leaning into a "two spirit" type explanation would have worked better.

having a made up term for non-binary would change what exactly? Being slightly less ham-fisted?

Yea and considering the PG-rated conversations that happen in this game, it's something that I feel they should have studied cartoon writers for, because they are usually better at nailing this type of nuance without the need to use a hammer.

 

[GymWolf]

I finally saw the full scene on youtube today. I think that the term 'non-binary' being spoken in the way it is in-game is why it seems out of place. It sounds too technical and 'dictionary'-esque of a term.

They should have created an in-universe term for it and then maybe add a note on the side or a note you can pick up that describes it using the term 'non-binary'.

Would that make the whole scene less preachy and frankly embarassing?

The dude with the wig is literally doing pushups to excuse his terrible mistake and then lecturing the audience about the right way to ask for forgiveness, having a made up term for non-binary would change what exactly? Being slightly less ham-fisted?

That would be like trying to patch a black hole with some duct tape.

 

[GymWolf]

Bruh

 

[Spukc]

I consider myself a non walletry person for this game.

I am also time handicapped
If you spout out sheit like this the studio deserves to burn down.

I hope all the talent gets the fuck out

 

[GymWolf]

Yea and considering the PG-rated conversations that happen in this game, it's something that I feel they should have studied cartoon writers for, because they are usually better at nailing this type of nuance without the need to use a hammer.

Like i said, the word non-binary is just one of the problems in that scene, you """""""""solve"""""""" that one with some fantasy term to represent a retarded modern concept but the scene remain appalling to say the least, unless you think what happen is absolutely normal outside of that specific word.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I finally saw the full scene on youtube today. I think that the term 'non-binary' being spoken in the way it is in-game is why it seems out of place. It sounds too technical and 'dictionary'-esque of a term.

They should have created an in-universe term for it and then maybe add a note on the side or a note you can pick up that describes it using the term 'non-binary'.

If binary is understood as "sexual options" the whole concept is demolished by the existence of sex inter-species. Binary loses any sense. Good creators would have crafted great lore out of this with nuances for each species, but these devs are talentless freaks who can only self-insert and bring in their personal issues.

 

[Topher]

If binary is understood as "sexual options" the whole concept is demolished by the existence of sex inter-species. Binary loses any sense. Good creators would have crafted great lore out of this with nuances for each species, but these devs are talentless freaks who can only self-insert and bring in their personal issues.

Any number of ways that the writers here could have expressed the concepts of "non-binary" and never even mentioned the phrase, or pronouns....any of it. But that takes talent and, like you say, they simply lack the talent.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Would that make the whole scene less preachy and frankly embarassing?

The dude with the wig is literally doing pushups to excuse his terrible mistake and then lecturing the audience about the right way to ask for forgiveness, having a made up term for non-binary would change what exactly? Being slightly less ham-fisted?

That would be like trying to patch a black hole with some duct tape.

That's the bit I love most.

I thought I was reading a Resetera transcript when it got to the bits about "you have to apologize, but it needs to be the proper tone, duration, etc, lest I refute it!"

Pro-Tip: if you ever find yourself in a situation where someone needs to apologize for something social, that person will not want to apologize. The end. Apologies fuck up narrative flow in conversations. You're talking in sequence about A, B, C, etc, and all of the sudden you need to stop and go from C to Purple.

Furthering the point, if you ever find yourself in a situation where someone needs to apologize for something social, and then you go on to say the apology isn't acceptable because of X and Y, then don't expect to ever find yourself in a social situation with that someone ever again.

IRL is path of least resistance for most of us. If I spend longer apologizing for saying the wrong thing than I do actually saying the wrong thing, you've just doubled the amount of wasted time and effort on my end, and i will likely explore other avenues first the next time I need to engage about whatever the topic may be.

 

[March Climber]

Like i said, the word non-binary is just one of the problems in that scene, you solve that one with some fantasy term but the scene remain appalling to say the least, unless you think what happen is absolutely normal outside of that specific word.

Scenes similar to the non-binary one where a character is saying "I think I'm ____" have happened in cartoons, just with much, much better nuance. Cartoons are also usually better at buildup and context to a scene like that, but I can't speak on the context and buildup to this game's scene because I would need to see the buildup to what brought those characters to that moment.

Just based on what I'm seeing, it's just smaller stuff I'm noticing that if they're wanting to tell a positive or encouraging message about something, they should study the way cartoons have done it for decades and then go up from there.

 

[SlimySnake]

This whole sequence lmfao

Can i skip this bitch's questline?

 

[Luipadre]

Can i skip this bitch's questline?

What do you think based on the game director and the writers of this game? Ofc you cant. I bet that character has the most onscreen time too

 

[Topher]

Can i skip this bitch's questline?

No, but it gets worse.....

Those dialogue options...

More like:

 

[GymWolf]

Scenes similar to the non-binary one where a character is saying "I think I'm ____" have happened in cartoons, just with much, much better nuance. Cartoons are also usually better at buildup and context to a scene like that, but I can't speak on the context and buildup to this game's scene because I would need to see the buildup to what brought those characters to that moment.

Just based on what I'm seeing, it's just smaller stuff I'm noticing that if they're wanting to tell a positive or encouraging message about something, they should study the way cartoons have done it for decades and then go up from there.

So you don't see anything wrong on lecturing the audience about the right tway of being sorry right?
Because the whole scene is about saying sorry not being enough for these fucking people.

 

[March Climber]

So you don't see anything wrong on lecturing the audience about the right type of being sorry right?

 

[Doomtrain]

Something else that occurs to me Is that the writers can’t decide if Taash being non-binary is stunning and brave, or if it’s just the status quo.

Taash comes out, and everyone automatically agrees with her. People self-flagellate for minor screwups. The player is given zero option to push back. Even the mom turns around quickly. They talk about old, well known, heroic characters who were well-respected and are non-binary. Everybody already knows what this is and celebrates it.

Despite this, the character is portrayed as victimized. Coming to terms with their gender identity is their entire character arc, and it’s portrayed as incredibly difficult, unique, and important.

As it is, they want it both ways. They want Taash to reap the sympathy and the admiration of having overcome adversity without the adversity existing.

This makes the character arc feel unearned, and it makes their struggle feel disingenuous. For this to work, the writers needed to be willing to explore all facets of the issue, rather than sugarcoating it. They needed to let the player push back on Taash. They needed to show other party members having a difficult time accepting this. They needed to go deeper into how and why this affects Taash beyond the superficial.

Good writers could do all of the above and still ultimately portray Taash as an aspirational character worthy of our understanding. It feels like the writers want to preach, but they don’t want to genuinely explore the issue or go deep on it.

If the writers aren’t willing to take it seriously, why should we?

 

[BigDeadFreak]

My initial reaction to threads like these is to blow it off as people being intolerant. Looking at the screenshots in the op, I'm not seeing anything that offends me. Which adds to that point.

I'm making this post as Olive Branch to understand. Is it just because someone says their non binary or that someone can be transgender in the game that people find offensive? How is this not just intolerance?

I see a lot of people calling anyone who believes in transgenderism mentally ill. It seems like the same arguments people made against gay people a while back which, is another data point pointing my radar towards intolerance.

Could someone explain to me the issue people have with OP, and how it's not just intolerance?

It's not the same as the arguments made about gay people. This whole trans issue has involved chopping up children's bodies, pumping them full of drugs that most European health organisations now admit are untested and unsafe, putting male rapists in women's prisons and a whole load of other deranged nonsense.

When people have tried to point out that this stuff is going on they have often had their careers destroyed or faced criminal prosecution.

It's also a movement that can't even define its own terms. Ask these people what a woman is and you get an incomprehensible world salad in response. As such, a lot of people resent being pressured into agreeing with ideas that don't make any sense. There's a feeling of the emperor's new clothes about it whereby many people suspect that almost no one really agrees with this stuff but people are just pretending to because they don't want to be seen as a bigot.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Now apologize.

Fuck off.

The end.