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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.

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so goku going from a power level of about 9k to like 150 million in about a month wasn't bullshit?

Apples and oranges. Goku's powerup is only concidered curious in hindsight. Nobody at that moment was like "woah wtf he's that strong now???". U6's Saiyans' SSJ transformation came out of nowehre and felt unearned. That's what it's all about: does it feel earned. Gohan's powerup wasn't though sheer effort (didn't Buu Saga happen in the span of a day or something?), but it felt earned. They'd been hyping up his potential thoughout the series.

U6 saiyans though? In order to excuse the effort, they needed to show us that it was earned. They didn't. Which is why it comes across a steaming pile of shit.
 
What people don't seem to be getting is the fact these are meant to be among the absolute best of the competing universes. The Saiyan who recommended Caulifla to Cabba said clear as day that her potential is well beyond his own.

We may not like how she achieved Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, but that's just evidence of how talented she is. People are wondering why she wasn't immediately turning Super Saiyan against the pride troopers, but that's likely because she isn't as used to the super Saiyan form just yet, and no matter how quickly she achieved the transformation, she must have clearly been somewhat exhausted or at the very least isn't nearly as adapt at using the power as Goku and Vegeta are.
Cabba went super saiyan got knocked out and did it again no problem when vegeta asked I highly doubt that's the case there when she's seemingly more gifted than him
 
Cabba went super saiyan got knocked out and did it again no problem when vegeta asked I highly doubt that's the case there when she's seemingly more gifted than him

Being able to do it again isn't somehow proof that you've gained full mastery of the way in which it can aggressively drain your stamina. All Cabba doing it again means is that he had successfully mastered activating the transformation, not exactly proof that his mastery of its use in combat while maintaining his stamina was now suddenly equal to that of either Goku or Vegeta.

Afterall, we all believed Goku somehow mastered Super Saiyan too the first time we saw him use it in his battle against Frieza. But in reality he hadn't fully mastered it until the Cell Saga.
 

Skeeter49

Member
Cabba went super saiyan got knocked out and did it again no problem when vegeta asked I highly doubt that's the case there when she's seemingly more gifted than him

And she also had trouble going SSJ2 a second time, so there's a precedent for her having trouble. That's the whole reason she went USSJ. She didn't learn naturally like Cabba did.

She could have just been drained. She went USSJ, which Goku said was tiring her out, to SSJ2 for the second time, and she stayed that form during the whole fight with Berserk Kale vs. Goku.
 

7Th

Member
Cabba should have just spread the SS transformation knowledge as soon as the U6 vs U7 battle ended. Why did he wait until recruitment for the ToP to start teaching it to other U6 Saiyans? If Cauli had already been able to turn into a SS by the time she was approached by Cabba her power growth would have been considerably more natural and Toei could have saved themselves the "tingly back" stuff since it would have happened off-screen.
 

Morlas

Member
tumblr_otxpxm8vZf1siqb02o3_540.gif
 
Cabba should have just spread the SS transformation knowledge as soon as the U6 vs U7 battle ended. Why did he wait until recruitment for the ToP to start teaching it to other U6 Saiyans? If Cauli had already been able to turn into a SS by the time she was approached by Cabba her power growth would have been considerably more natural and Toei could have saved themselves the "tingly back" stuff since it would have happened off-screen.

She's the leader of a gang. Why would Cabba teach her before the tournament?
 

7Th

Member
She's the leader of a gang. Why would Cabba teach her before the tournament?

She would have learned from her brother and even just knowing it actually exists and training hard to achieve it. If Cauli was unaware SS was a thing until her recruitment it means Cabba basically kept the transformation a secret.
 

Skeeter49

Member
She's the leader of a gang. Why would Cabba teach her before the tournament?
Who tried attacking Cabba as soon as he approached them.

Plus Cabba and her don't get along.

Cabba said that before he went to teach her.

Cabba not teaching saiyans SSJ was bad though, it's the whole reason he wanted SSJ in the first place, he had a fucking year.

Hindsight is easy to say for us, but her and Kale should have been in the Baseball episode, since we know Champa had the Zeno tournament in mind then.
 
And she also had trouble going SSJ2 a second time, so there's a precedent for her having trouble. That's the whole reason she went USSJ. She didn't learn naturally like Cabba did.

She could have just been drained. She went USSJ, which Goku said was tiring her out, to SSJ2 for the second time, and she stayed that form during the whole fight with Berserk Kale vs. Goku.

Yep, and because she is different we can't just assume that she achieved Super Saiyan 2 in a fashion that is exactly similar to the level of mastery that Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, etc has achieved.

It may not be something they explain to us right away, but I suspect she maybe has a ways to go where stamina control is concerned while using those transformations. Even if they don't explain it, it will be demonstrated more than likely in her at some point being overpowered by an opponent she can't beat. It won't necessarily mean she would've won if she had super saiyan 2 fully mastered, but perhaps she would perform better if she did.

As we've seen with both the new saiyans from universe 6 so far, they master transformations, or at least getting control of them fairly instinctively, but they, thus far, appear to be wreak havoc on their stamina reserves. There is a reason they've needed to do so much resting up during this tournament thus far, whereas more powerful saiyans like goku, vegeta, gohan and the rest haven't stopped to take anywhere near the length of rest and recovery period that Kale and Caulifla have had to. So when people think that these two characters are broken in an unchecked fashion, they truly aren't. They've been limited as compared to more practiced Super Saiyans even if they may possess more raw potential compared to someone like Cabba.

And it's been said already by Goku that he knows they'll become even more powerful, and that's likely to happen in this very tournament. We just don't know what form that will take. I just believe the status quo thus far regarding their seeming lack of stamina management after using Super Saiyan transformations may ultimately be their core weakness right now.

And it's beginning to be quite clear that Cabba is being saved for something, or is a lot more powerful than he has been given credit for thus far. Perhaps he'll be the first to challenge Frost for his treachery with Freeza.
 
Who tried attacking Cabba as soon as he approached them.

Plus Cabba and her don't get along.

Cabba said that before he went to teach her.

Cabba not teaching saiyans SSJ was bad though, it's the whole reason he wanted SSJ in the first place, he had a fucking year.

Well Cabba sucks lol.
 

7Th

Member
I can actually see Toyotaro just saying that Cabba taught the U6 Saiyans about the SS transformation and that's the reason Cauli can use it. More than anything to save himself some time since the monthly manga needs to speed up the events from the anime or it will never get anywhere.
 
Well, there's no evidence Cabba did not attempt to teach saiyans. Perhaps before Caulifla and Kale nobody demonstrated such a strong aptitude for learning how to do it.

If Super Saiyan was so simply achieved by any Saiyan it wouldn't be such a rare thing for their race. Not just anyone will be able to do it.
 
Apples and oranges. Goku's powerup is only concidered curious in hindsight. Nobody at that moment was like "woah wtf he's that strong now???". U6's Saiyans' SSJ transformation came out of nowehre and felt unearned. That's what it's all about: does it feel earned. Gohan's powerup wasn't though sheer effort (didn't Buu Saga happen in the span of a day or something?), but it felt earned. They'd been hyping up his potential thoughout the series.

U6 saiyans though? In order to excuse the effort, they needed to show us that it was earned. They didn't. Which is why it comes across a steaming pile of shit.

What!? Focusing your key into your lower back isn't as satisfying as seeing years of build up and training for something to happen explosively after a loved one is murdered in front of you? That's just silly, the U6 Saiyans earned every bit of it!
 

Morlas

Member
What!? Focusing your key into your lower back isn't as satisfying as seeing years of build up and training for something to happen explosively after a loved one is murdered in front of you? That's just silly, the U6 Saiyans earned every bit of it!

you might have a point...if goten and trunks hadn't already offscreened it
 
IMO it would've been better if Cabba already showed them SSJ and they trained during the time between the U6 Tournament and the ToP instead of wasting time with them in episodes and making people angry.
 

caliph95

Member
I still think it's weird they didn't already know of SSJ
The first guy apparently went super Saiyan because he thought the Saiyan were evil right, just like God

I could say u7 didn't but only Goku passed the power requirement if that is a thing while U6 seems to be beyond u7 Saiyan

I'm just going to say because Dragon ball
 
The first guy apparently went super Saiyan because he thought the Saiyan were evil right, just like God

I could say u7 didn't but only Goku passed the power requirement if that is a thing while U6 seems to be beyond u7 Saiyan

I'm just going to say because Dragon ball

But I thought Bardok was the first Super Saiyan... before the Saiyans were Saiyans... or are we just ignoring all that? Because I'm totally on board for forgetting all that.
 
Recently watched the garlis jr, bojack, and wrath of the dragon fist movies.

WotDF was great! really enjoyed it. though it can plausibly be considered canon as it doesnt retcon anything in the manga or anime, I wish theyd acknowledge Kid TRunks sword in the super anime.

bojack and garlic jr were ok, really liked the tournament in bojack
 

Morlas

Member
The thing I like most about Caulifla is that she's a dork who acts like a tough badass
she kinda is
and she's more like a big kid who gets excited by cool things
 
The thing with SSJ to me just doesn't seem that much different than what they did when Gohan showed how to use flight to Videl.

I mean, they showed Namekian children could fly 2 saga previously, and that Videl was at the very least a martial artist.

Honestly, nothing we've been shown of the U6 Saiyans even shows that they are stronger than te average U7 aside from the 3 standouts. They are smaller, they come from a peaceful culture, and they aren't even shown to be the types that train all the time. I mean none of them have any muscle definition aside from LSSJ Kale. I don't think the flight comparison to SSJ is a very apt one.

The thing I like most about Caulifla is that she's a dork who acts like a tough badass
she kinda is
and she's more like a big kid who gets excited by cool things

Wasn't she the bancho of her own little crime syndicate? She is easily excitable, but she's also a pretty serious person. I get the feeling it's more like she's rediscovering her more childlike side as things are suddenly full of wonder.
 

Morlas

Member
I mean, they showed Namekian children could fly 2 saga previously, and that Videl was at the very least a martial artist.

Honestly, nothing we've been shown of the U6 Saiyans even shows that they are stronger than te average U7 aside from the 3 standouts. They are smaller, they come from a peaceful culture, and they aren't even shown to be the types that train all the time. I mean none of them have any muscle definition aside from LSSJ Kale. I don't think the flight comparison to SSJ is a very apt one.

well don't forget that dragon ball was drawn in the 80s when muscles were the thing
 
well don't forget that dragon ball was drawn in the 80s when muscles were the thing

That's true, but they could have designed the U6 to be a more lithe and agile comparatively. Instead we get... flat. I'm wondering if it wasn't an intentional decision to make drawing them easier since it's all flat shading.

I absolutely prefer them not to be roided like U7 saiyans, but being toned and with at least some sort of definition to their muscles would have looked more aesthetically pleasing and made them look more impressive.
 

Skeeter49

Member
I mean, they showed Namekian children could fly 2 saga previously, and that Videl was at the very least a martial artist.

Honestly, nothing we've been shown of the U6 Saiyans even shows that they are stronger than te average U7 aside from the 3 standouts. They are smaller, they come from a peaceful culture, and they aren't even shown to be the types that train all the time. I mean none of them have any muscle definition aside from LSSJ Kale. I don't think the flight comparison to SSJ is a very apt one.



Wasn't she the bancho of her own little crime syndicate? She is easily excitable, but she's also a pretty serious person. I get the feeling it's more like she's rediscovering her more childlike side as things are suddenly full of wonder.
She was set up as a saiyan with more potential than Cabba, or Cabba's master.

She's a leader of a gang, you don't really get that title from being weak/ not being a tough fighter, and Cabba implies she's stronger than him before she got SSJ2, meaning her base was up there since Cabba is one of the strongest U6 saiyans. I don't get how nothing implies she's stronger than U7 fighters.

These weren't just random saiyans from U6. Champa picked one of the toughest, who then went to get someone tougher than him, who directed Cabba to someone even tougher than him. We started near the peak already, and they kept going up. Kale was the only outlier in that.

There are some things I think they messed up sure.

Like SSJ2: Make Kale deform, have Cabba throw an attack at base knocked out Kale not realizing she deformed, and have Caulifla go SSJ2 then to save her life.
 
They did. Like the episode after Freiza is killed again. Maybe the one after.

I watched the movies and began on episode 28, did i miss that?

That's true, but they could have designed the U6 to be a more lithe and agile comparatively. Instead we get... flat. I'm wondering if it wasn't an intentional decision to make drawing them easier since it's all flat shading.

I absolutely prefer them not to be roided like U7 saiyans, but being toned and with at least some sort of definition to their muscles would have looked more aesthetically pleasing and made them look more impressive.

they look outta place when compared to everything else like Jiren or hit.
 
She was set up as a saiyan with more potential than Cabba, or Cabba's master.

She's a leader of a gang, you don't really get that title from being weak/ not being a fighter, and Cabba implies she's stronger than him before she got SSJ2, meaning her base was up there. I don't get how nothing implies she's stronger than U7 fighters.

Then we come right back around to feeling that those accomplishments are unearned. There are a LOT of gang leaders on other worlds and other dimensions. You can bet U7 had a heirarchy based on fighting, their entire culture was that. So she became leader of a gang of mostly peace loving people. She's inherently stronger than the career trained military fighter Cabba. Okay, that happens... but at least we see Cabba doesn't really stand any sort of chance against U7 probably even before SSJ. Cabba is physically and mentally pushed to his limits by Vegeta beating him, taunting him, threatening him and his entire species. Now, that all felt rushed, but at least it did actually happen.

Caulifla feels completely unearned in comparison. She wasn't pushed to her limits in any way. Cabba just said "feel the back tingles" and boom, there she was.


Don't get me wrong, I'm warming up to Kale the more I've dwelled on her the last month or so... But Cabba was robbed of character development that could have also really built up Caulifla as well. It'd still have felt rushed, but it could have at least been earned a little.
 

Rutger

Banned
What!? Focusing your key into your lower back isn't as satisfying as seeing years of build up and training for something to happen explosively after a loved one is murdered in front of you? That's just silly, the U6 Saiyans earned every bit of it!

I'm pretty sure training has never been stated to matter in unlocking Super Saiyan.

Though that doesn't matter since the U6 Saiyans that have unlocked it are all stronger than Goku was on Namik.

Anyways, the way Caulifla unlocked it doesn't bother me. She thinks the idea of getting it through rage sounds stupid, so she finds an arguably goofier way. It feels like the kind of joke Toriyama would make. Turning it into a joke since it's just going to be handed out anyways is better than the nothing Goten and kid Trunks got.
 
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