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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.

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S

Skeeter49

Member
Crimsonlink said:
What we need now is another baseball episode but now with more Saiyans lol.
Click to expand...

The new roster needs to have Frieza, Hit, Frost, 17, 18, Roshi, Caulifla, and Kale.
Yamcha needs to join U6's team.
Minus Yamcha, it needs to be a true U6 vs. U7 match.

Tien can go cry no one invited him.

Blackleg-sanji1 said:
They don't work because you assume so. Making assumptions the same as I am
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He's right about Frieza. Same for Gohan. I'll give him the second Hit. First Hit it could be argued
Goku couldn't tap into it at that time.
Krillin it makes sense because of
Blue's power scaling. Goku would kill Krillin as SSG. SSB he can scale his power wherever it needs to be to beat Krillin.
The rest are assumptions.

Blackleg-sanji1 said:
So he had the form in the back but decided to risk his body with kaioken first against hit...really now
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When it's SSBX10, I would assume that washes away any advantage SSG might have, even speed. Goku might say in the episode he learned it between 72 when his fight with Hit was extremely close, and 77, there's a lot of time in there where we haven't seen Goku.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
HeroR said:
With Trunks, he couldn't sense god ki at the time, so it was pointless to used Super Saiyan God against him. The reason why Goku sparred with him was not to test Trunks in the first place. It was to see how his strength compared to Black, which would be rendered pointless if Trunks couldn't sense his power at all.

Krillin was meant to be overkill, so he used his strongest form.

Gohan, Goku was handily him with just Super Saiyan 2. He didn't even bother with Super Saiyan 3, so why would he used Super Saiyan God, especially after Gohan started telling Goku to used his full power. So him going Super Saiyan God would make no sense.

Why would he used Super Saiyan God with Vegeta when most of their training was them fighting in their base forms?

He tested Hit because he didn't want to used any stamina at all, which is why he didn't even go into a basic Super Saiyan. Once he figured out the Time-Skip, he went all out. The same with Hit during his rematch since Hit was trying to kill him.

Frieza was evenly matched with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, so Frieza would have outright killed him as a Super Saiyan God, so why would he used that form? In Resurrection 'F', Frieza was stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, so using Super Saiyan God there would have been even dumber.

Really, all your examples are doesn't work with 'why Goku never used Super Saiyan God'.
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They don't work because you assume so. Making assumptions the same as I am
 
H

HeroR

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
Then wait for the episode.
Click to expand...


Why? Why bitch later when we can bitch now?

Blackleg-sanji1 said:
So he had the form in the back but decided to risk his body with kaioken first against hit...really now
Click to expand...

Hit was about even against with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku in the Champa Saga, so why would Goku used Super Saiyan God, a weaker form, against him especially after Hit improved his Time-Skip and floored him several times in his strongest form? And why would Goku used Super Saiyan God against Hit in their rematch since he knew what Hit did to him the last time, like keeping up with a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken x10 without even using his killing techniques?
 
L

LSauchelli

Member
HeroR said:
They're base forms are above Super Saiyan God since it was stated by such by Beerus in both the retelling of Battle of Gods and the movie. They're way above Super Saiyan 3 from the Buu Saga since Goku in base form took hits from Beerus. In the movie, Goku went all the way to his base form from Super Saiyan God and didn't even noticed and even landed a blow that clearly hurt Beerus.

Vegeta never took in Super Saiyan God since he never got the form outside of the Super manga. Only Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, while Vegeta trained for it.
Click to expand...
Beerus said that Goku absorbed the SSJGod ki, so his powers didn't lower drastically. This was while Goku was using SSJ. So, Goku after absorbing SSGod and transformed into SSJ is weaker than the actual SSJGod form, but not drastically weaker.

It also means that no, Base Goku is not equal to Super Saiyan God Goku, but he is still above his pre Battle of the Gods SSJ3 transformation.

Super Saiyan God also has its regeneration going for it. Does Blue even have that?
 
H

HeroR

Member
LSauchelli said:
Beerus said that Goku absorbed the SSJGod ki, so his powers didn't lower drastically. This was while Goku was using SSJ. So, Goku after absorbing SSGod and transformed into SSJ is weaker than the actual SSJGod form, but not drastically weaker.

It also means that no, Base Goku is not equal to Super Saiyan God Goku, but he is still above his pre Battle of the Gods SSJ3 transformation.

Super Saiyan God also has its regeneration going for it. Does Blue even have that?
Click to expand...

In the movie, Goku went down to his base form after losing Super Saiyan God and literally didn't noticed. He actually performed better and landed a blow so hard that it winded Beerus. He could even teleport spam, implying that he could now sense Beerus' power despite not having god ki anymore. Meaning, there wasn't a major power different between base form Goku and Super Saiyan God Goku, otherwise Goku should have felt his power drop after he went to base.

If we go by the retelling, Goku in his base form punched Beerus' last attack that he purposely made stronger than his other attacks.

Blackleg-sanji1 said:
It's funny so hostile yet ppl can be excited without knowing full details

If I said yay go episode 104 nobody would've looked my way
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The people who are excited are happy to see the form again, not really caring how it fits into the lore. They are also not making assumption about why the form is returning and those who do, I do correct them about Super Saiyan God being faster than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since such statements have never been said anywhere, not even the Super manga.

So yes, if you said something to the assumption of 'Super Saiyan God is stronger or faster than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan', then I would have responded to you just like I did others.
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
It's funny so hostile yet ppl can be excited without knowing full details

If I said yay go episode 104 nobody would've looked my way
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That's different from calling it out for "making no sense".

The other side of being excited about it is being upset about it. I'm not saying people can't lean one way or another, but at least wait for the episode to explain itself before saying it literally makes no sense and is inconsistent.

Low context spoilers were a mistake.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Skeeter49 said:
He's right about Frieza. Same for Gohan. I'll give him the second Hit. First Hit it could be argued
Goku couldn't tap into it at that time.
Krillin it makes sense because of
Blue's power scaling. Goku would kill Krillin as SSG. SSB he can scale his power wherever it needs to be to beat Krillin.
The rest are assumptions.


When it's SSBX10, I would assume that washes away any advantage SSG might have, even speed. Goku might say in the episode he learned it between 72 when his fight with Hit was extremely close, and 77, there's a lot of time in there where we haven't seen Goku.
Click to expand...

Where is this narrative that Super Saiyan God can't scale is coming from? All Super Saiyan forms can be scale to whatever Goku want. The only reason why Goku had problems with scaling Super Saiyan God at the beginning was because it was a huge power jump. After he got used to it, he could scale Super Saiyan God just fine.

Again, when Goku first fought Hit, he outright said he was saving stamina and it would make no sense to used Super Saiyan God against an opponent who flattened Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta without using the BS 90% drop in power the manga had. Even in the manga, Super Saiyan God takes more stamina than a normal Super Saiyan.

Also, it was never stated anywhere that Super Saiyan God was faster than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. In the manga, Super Saiyan God is an inferior to form to Blue in all areas except stamina. In the anime, they outright called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a form that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

It feels like people are just randomly making up rules for Super Saiyan God here.
 
M

Magwik

Banned
HeroR said:
Where is this narrative that Super Saiyan God can't scale is coming from? All Super Saiyan forms can be scale to whatever Goku want. The only reason why Goku had problems with scaling Super Saiyan God at the beginning was because it was a huge power jump. After he got used to it, he could scale Super Saiyan God just fine.

Again, when Goku first fought Hit, he outright said he was saving stamina and it would make no sense to used Super Saiyan God against an opponent who flattened Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta without using the BS 90% drop in power the manga had. Even in the manga, Super Saiyan God takes more stamina than a normal Super Saiyan.

Also, it was never stated anywhere that Super Saiyan God was faster than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. In the manga, Super Saiyan God is an inferior to form to Blue in all areas except stamina. In the anime, they outright called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a form that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

It feels like people are just randomly making up rules for Super Saiyan God here.
Click to expand...
Because there are no good damn rules
 
L

Laiza

Member
LSauchelli said:
Beerus said that Goku absorbed the SSJGod ki, so his powers didn't lower drastically. This was while Goku was using SSJ. So, Goku after absorbing SSGod and transformed into SSJ is weaker than the actual SSJGod form, but not drastically weaker.

It also means that no, Base Goku is not equal to Super Saiyan God Goku, but he is still above his pre Battle of the Gods SSJ3 transformation.

Super Saiyan God also has its regeneration going for it. Does Blue even have that?
Click to expand...
Yeah, there is actually no proof that SSG is weaker than SSB. It's just an assumption people made based on its name including SSG in it (something that could have been avoided with a proper explanation and the use of SSB instead of SSGSS from the get-go).

We've never seen punches threaten to destroy the universe after Goku and Beerus fought in BoG. That could just be a case of the writers forgetting or handwaving it, but I think that's a hint that everything since BoG has been of a smaller scale.
 
MiguelMexMIstery

MiguelMexMIstery

Member
eVERYBODY SHUT UP AND HOLD HANDS

c_U-_N.gif
 
H

HeroR

Member
Laiza said:
Yeah, there is actually no proof that SSG is weaker than SSB. It's just an assumption people made based on its name including SSG in it (something that could have been avoided with a proper explanation and the use of SSB instead of SSG from the get-go).

We've never seen punches threaten to destroy the universe after Goku and Beerus fought in BoG. That could just be a case of the writers forgetting or handwaving it, but I think that's a hint that everything since BoG has been of a smaller scale.
Click to expand...

That isn't an assumption by fans. It was outright said in both the anime and the manga. Super Saiyan God was repeatedly called weaker than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with Black calling it an inferior god form. The anime had the narrator called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a form that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

We never saw Super Saiyan 2 threatening to destroy the Earth, so does that make it weaker than Super Saiyan? By that logic, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is weaker than Super Saiyan 3 since that shook the entire Earth just by transforming while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan never did that.

It's called ki control since these people can destroy planets without trying, yet the Earth always remained intact until someone directly tries to destroy it like Kid Buu and Frieza. It was even stated in the Battle of Gods that Goku learned to control Super Saiyan God and both Beerus and him were hitting with enough force to destroy an universe, even after they stopped the shockwaves.
 
L

Laiza

Member
HeroR said:
That isn't an assumption by fans. It was outright said in both the anime and the manga. Super Saiyan God was repeatedly called weaker than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with Black calling it an inferior god form. The anime had the narrator called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a form that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

We never saw Super Saiyan 2 threatening to destroy the Earth, so does that make it weaker than Super Saiyan? By that logic, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is weaker than Super Saiyan 3 since that shook the entire Earth just by transforming while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan never did that.

It's called ki control since these people can destroy planets without trying, yet the Earth always remained intact until someone directly tries to destroy it like Kid Buu and Frieza.
Click to expand...
They didn't say "surpasses", they said "beyond".

Either way, though, I'm not taking them on their word at this point because we still haven't seen SSB perform any notable feats. Which is a big part of the problem we're having, really. We can't judge the strength of these forms at all because we have nothing to actually inform us how strong they actually are relative to each other, especially at this scale.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Magwik said:
Reminder: Nobody should ever take Toyataro's manga as credible
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Even if they don't, the anime called Super Saiyan God weaker than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So again, this isn't assumption on the fandom. The show outright told us and the whole 'Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan doesn't destroy the universe so it's weaker than Super Saiyan God', is a fallacy since the people in Dragon Ball could waste planets by the Saiyan Saga (you only need a power level of 10.000 to destroy a small planet according to the guides), yet the only 'confirmed' planet busters would be Frieza, Kid Buu, Beerus, and Vados.

Laiza said:
They didn't say "surpasses", they said "beyond".

Either way, though, I'm not taking them on their word at this point because we still haven't seen SSB perform any notable feats. Which is a big part of the problem we're having, really. We can't judge the strength of these forms at all because we have nothing to actually inform us how strong they actually are relative to each other, especially at this scale.
Click to expand...

Again, it's a fallacy to say that if there is no feats, they can't do it, especially when the narrative said otherwise. I mean, I can sit here and say that Goku can't destroy a planet because he never did it, yet we both know that is nonsense. As I mentioned, the only Super Saiyan forms, prior to Super Saiyan God, that had noticeable feats was Super Saiyan 3 that shook the Earth. Every other form of Super Saiyan has to scaled to who they were fighting at the time.

Or how about this: feat wise who comes out stronger, Namek Saga Frieza or Super Perfect Cell? Namek Saga Frieza destroyed a planet, while Super Perfect Cell didn't. In fact, he had to blow himself to attempt to 'destroy' Earth. Heck, Roshi and Piccolo both have better feats than Super Perfect Cell since both them destroyed the moon.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Laiza said:
They didn't say "surpasses", they said "beyond".

Either way, though, I'm not taking them on their word at this point because we still haven't seen SSB perform any notable feats. Which is a big part of the problem we're having, really. We can't judge the strength of these forms at all because we have nothing to actually inform us how strong they actually are relative to each other, especially at this scale.
Click to expand...

This is essentially the problem with endless increases in power levels: it reaches a point where the power involved is so great that there's not a whole lot of difference to the reader when it comes to telling one level from another.

Frankly, Blue would have been better off being just a way to hit ssjGod levels without the ritual.

After a certain point there's no real point into growing power levels any higher due to diminishing narrative returns and we've long since hit that point.
 
C

cordy

Banned
We've seen numerous characters in Super have a power level and usefulness different from their Z counterparts and now people are all of a sudden getting upset with these new SSj forms?

Come on now yall, you know what it is. It's a battle royal with power level rules here lol.
Sibersk Esto said:
What feats do...any of the forms have beyond "punched the guy that was really hard to punch before transforming"?
Click to expand...

These forms are like D'Lo with his chest protector.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
MiguelMexMIstery said:
eVERYBODY SHUT UP AND HOLD HANDS

c_U-_N.gif
Click to expand...

Vegeta didn't, so I won't either.
I've changed my mind, please don't go yet :(

Sibersk Esto said:
What feats do...any of the forms have beyond "punched the guy that was really hard to punch before transforming"?
Click to expand...
SSJ3 Gotenks created portals between dimensions.
SSJ2 Gohan was one with the birds.

Hydrus said:
I swear, if this is the way a new Goku transformation is unlocked, I'm gonna fly to Japan and find and dislocate Toriyamas thumbs to make sure shit like that never gets written ever again.
Click to expand...
Elder Kai really wanted to do the ritual on Goku, so he drained everyone else's energy to speed up the ritual.

Icyflamez96 said:
Imagine he tricks the other Saiyans into doing the ritual for him.
Click to expand...
That would
also fuck up Gohan and Veggie.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Hydrus said:
I swear, if this is the way a new Goku transformation is unlocked, I'm gonna fly to Japan and find and dislocate Toriyamas thumbs to make sure shit like that never gets written ever again.
Click to expand...

Since he isn't drawing, he can just called Toei or Toyo to tell them what he wants.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
Hydrus said:
I swear, if this is the way a new Goku transformation is unlocked, I'm gonna fly to Japan and find and dislocate Toriyamas thumbs to make sure shit like that never gets written ever again.
Click to expand...
Jokes on you toriyama is vacationing on a private island occasionally sending toei notes
Use old forms/Make gohan great again/ remember gt
 
L

Laiza

Member
HeroR said:
Again, it's a fallacy to say that if there is no feats, they can't do it, especially when the narrative said otherwise. I mean, I can sit here and say that Goku can't destroy a planet because he never did it, yet we both know that is nonsense. As I mentioned, the only Super Saiyan forms, prior to Super Saiyan God, that had noticeable feats was Super Saiyan 3 that shook the Earth. Every other form of Super Saiyan has to scaled to who they were fighting at the time.

Or how about this: feat wise who comes out stronger, Namek Saga Frieza or Super Perfect Cell? Namek Saga Frieza destroyed a planet, while Super Perfect Cell didn't. In fact, he had to blow himself to attempt to 'destroy' Earth. Heck, Roshi and Piccolo both have better feats than Super Perfect Cell since both them destroyed the moon.
Click to expand...
To put it another way: SSB has never been shown to fight evenly with someone on Beerus' level. Even that one time base Goku fought Beerus is suspect due to it being filler and Beerus wearing a costume.

In a series where the only feats that matter beyond the Saiyan saga is "can X form allow Y character to beat Z character" those are the only reference points we have, and we haven't had a single opponent since BoG that could be said to match Beerus. Even Golden Freeza was clearly far below Beerus's level, and SSB Goku was getting creamed by Goldy until the plot kicked in.

It would be ludicrous to make an assertion that SSB is stronger than SSG when you have people like Hit giving SSB a run for its money, someone who is obviously no match for his GoD Champa.
B-Dubs said:
This is essentially the problem with endless increases in power levels: it reaches a point where the power involved is so great that there's not a whole lot of difference to the reader when it comes to telling one level from another.

Frankly, Blue would have been better off being just a way to hit ssjGod levels without the ritual.

After a certain point there's no real point into growing power levels any higher due to diminishing narrative returns and we've long since hit that point.
Click to expand...
Sibersk Esto said:
What feats do...any of the forms have beyond "punched the guy that was really hard to punch before transforming"?
Click to expand...
Right, that's the thing. The only feats we can even have at this point all boil down to "can they beat that guy", and that's about it. At some point they really needed to stop the escalation of power levels and I'd say BoG was about that point.

You really can't get beyond universe-destroying fist clashes.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Fulminator said:
Forget the anime or manga, toriyama himself has said blue is better than red hasn't he
Click to expand...

No, but he called Blue a form beyond Super Saiyan God. In fact, the name Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan came from the way the described the form in his notes.

For a while, fans thought Blue was weaker than Super Saiyan God since Toriyama said he didn't used blue for Super Saiyan God because he thought the color looked weak.

Laiza said:
To put it another way: SSB has never been shown to fight evenly with someone on Beerus' level. Even that one time base Goku fought Beerus is suspect due to it being filler and Beerus wearing a costume.

In a series where the only feats that matter beyond the Saiyan saga is "can X form allow Y character to beat Z character" those are the only reference points we have, and we haven't had a single opponent since BoG that could be said to match Beerus. Even Golden Freeza was clearly far below Beerus's level, and SSB Goku was getting creamed by Goldy until the plot kicked in.

It would be ludicrous to make an assertion that SSB is stronger than SSG when you have people like Hit giving SSB a run for its money, someone who is obviously no match for his GoD Champa.


Right, that's the thing. The only feats we can even have at this point all boil down to "can they beat that guy", and that's about it. At some point they really needed to stop the escalation of power levels and I'd say BoG was about that point.

You really can't get beyond universe-destroying fist clashes.
Click to expand...

Neither has Super Saiyan God. That form got overwhelmed by Beerus in both the movie and retelling. It was even more a stomp in fact in the retelling. Even if you dismissed Episode 42 as 'filler' Goku fought Beerus in his base form in both the movie and the retelling and stood his ground with base form Goku landed at hint on Beerus and caused him to cry in pain. So the 'filler' doesn't goes against anything and only reinforced what happened in Battle of Gods.

Super Saiyan God didn't allow Goku to beat Beerus and Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie even went as far as to call Super Saiyan God Goku no threat, so even that example doesn't work here.

Hit is strong and can match Blue. That doesn't make Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan weaker than Super Saiyan God since 'well that form fought Beerus', when that form was utterly no match for Beerus and Beerus scoffed at it.

Yes you can, since we have Zen'o who can wipe the multiverse compared to Goku who can only do one universe.
 
E

Eylos

Banned
Hydrus said:
I swear, if this is the way a new Goku transformation is unlocked, I'm gonna fly to Japan and find and dislocate Toriyamas thumbs to make sure shit like that never gets written ever again.
Click to expand...
The power of friendship, the most amazing power up.
 
F

Fulminator

Member
HeroR said:
No, but he called Blue a form beyond Super Saiyan God. In fact, the name Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan came from the way the described the form in his notes.

For a while, fans thought Blue was weaker than Super Saiyan God since Toriyama said he didn't used blue for Super Saiyan God because he thought the color looked weak.



Neither has Super Saiyan God. That form got overwhelmed by Beerus in both the movie and retelling. It was even more a stomp in fact in the retelling. Even if you dismissed Episode 42 as 'filler' Goku fought Beerus in his base form in both the movie and the retelling and stood his ground with base form Goku landed at hint on Beerus and caused him to cry in pain. So the 'filler' doesn't goes against anything and only reinforced what happened in Battle of Gods.

Super Saiyan God didn't allow Goku to beat Beerus and Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie even went as far as to call Super Saiyan God Goku no threat, so even that example doesn't work here.

Hit is strong and can match Blue. That doesn't make Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan weaker than Super Saiyan God since 'well that form fought Beerus', when that form was utterly no match for Beerus and Beerus scoffed at it.

Yes you can, since we have Zen'o who can wipe the multiverse compared to Goku who can only do one universe.
Click to expand...

Oh ok i see
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
So Goku going SSJ1 is inconsistency or bad writing now, right?
Because SSJ2 is superior. And all other forms are stronger. Therefore, he can NEVER go SSJ without anyone considering it a cop-out or inconsistency or bad writing.

Jesus.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
V_Arnold said:
So Goku going SSJ1 is inconsistency or bad writing now, right?
Because SSJ2 is superior. And all other forms are stronger. Therefore, he can NEVER go SSJ without anyone considering it a cop-out or inconsistency or bad writing.

Jesus.
Click to expand...

Was there a specific ritual used to achieve the form? Did it have a time limit after which he couldn't get back into the form?
 
C

CryptiK

Member
This could be a massive departure from the manga. Since in the manga he has access to God whenever and its weaker the SSB.
 
R

Retro Edge

Member
Style said:
Who did the Dr. Slump crossover episode? That's the best Super has looked imo. Why can't they stick to that style.
Click to expand...


The best Super has looked yet?
That was when they introduced this new filter technology for 2 or 3 episodes. I was literally blown away on how good it looked (and I'm always critical about how DBS and anime generally look today in comparison to 80s and 90s anime) until they abandoned it again completely a few episodes later, you can see a few comparison shots here, just search a few sites back and forth:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1325921&page=297
 
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