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DriveClub Review Thread.

As long as we agree his supposed platform bias does not factor into that.

Oh come on. If you accept Jeff Gerstmann is a human, you have to accept he will have a preference, like everyone on the frickin planet. What is more arguable, like you say, is whether this preference has a factor in his review.

But again, it's impossible that a person isn't dictated to some degree by his own preferences, either subconsciously, or worse, consciously.

It's easy to take a stance of immediate repudiation when confronted with the idea of bias in the videogames media partly because of the prevalent 'console warz' mentality that exists within the medium, and deride the idea as schoolboy thinking, but the videogames media is not a breed apart from any other out there.

It exists in videogaming just as it exists in media covering politics, football, cars, gymnastics, WW1 fighter planes or literally anything you can think of.

EDIT:

But if you agree that he is as susceptible as everyone else, why is it impossible that these things factor into his review?

I'm not saying it is (I think his reviews reveal that he values certain things that are not found in Driveclub), but you say it's ridiculous to even entertain the notion that he might be influenced by what Coloumb says.

Exactly, why on earth is 'bias' such a preposterous proposition when it comes to videogames?
 
TO BE CLEAR: I'm addressing your allegations of platform bias. Not simple personal preference and how it relates to how most reviewers approach video games with different expectations.

-----

He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who needs to wave the flag for one box because he can't afford the other.

I also think he values his integrity enough not to push one agenda instead of other in exchange for money considering his history at Gamespot.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who needs to wave the flag for one box because he can't afford the other.

I also think he values his integrity enough not to push one agenda instead of other in exchange for money considering his history at Gamespot.
I certainly don't think he is waving any flag or doing it with some intent.

I'm just saying he is human. I haven't even made any qualitative assertion that his bias is bad. I have only said that as a person he has biases and keep those in mind.

I think he would agree that he shouldn't be seen as the authority on games, but rather that he is one of the voices that you should follow if you in general agree with his past opinions.
 
He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who needs to wave the flag for one box because he can't afford the other.

I also think he values his integrity enough not to push one agenda instead of other in exchange for money considering his history at Gamespot.

So yeah, 'he doesn't seem like the kind of guy' is the reason why you find the notion of him having a bias is 'ridiculous'. Which makes your argument fall down completely.

I'm not having a go, I just don't think you should label things ridiculous that are inherent in all humans!
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Of course, that is the entire point of a personality based website. But the idea that his (supposed) dislike for the Sony platform colored this review is pretty ridiculous.

Why wouldn't it? I'd expect anybody with a bias against something to judge it differently, than if they had a bias FOR something.
 
It's beyond ridiculous that people are suggesting reviews they don't agree with are the result of bias, rather than simply differing opinions.
 
TO BE CLEAR: I'm addressing your allegations of platform bias. Not simple personal preference and how it relates to how most reviewers approach video games with different expectations.

-----

He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who needs to wave the flag for one box because he can't afford the other.

I also think he values his integrity enough not to push one agenda instead of other in exchange for money considering his history at Gamespot.

Ok but personal preference inevitably leads to a bias to some degree. It's not a crime, it's not evil. If you don't think that is the case then this will probably lead to a debate on the meaning of 'bias'. And it doesn't mean enough for me to waste my time doing that...
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
I also don't feel like having some philosophical debate on the meaning on bias, because for me it's the most natural in the world to have preconceived notions that have been shaped during your lifetime.

The stark refusal to entertain the notion that someone is as flawed as every other human seems to be either a misunderstanding on what the term means or is a result of the cult of personality that some people in the enthusiast press had developed around them.
 
Because he wanted it to be more sim like and didn't like the fact that it was something in-between. In other words, it didn't handle how he personally wanted or preferred, which is nonsense. If a game is not going for simulation racing, there's no need to dock it for that. This is a Simcade track based title. Not an arcade racer, not a sim racer, not an open world racer.

This quote just comes off as so arrogant to me.



Apparently. The developers claim. An attempt at simulating real cars. Talk about contradictory. If they tell you they're going for simcade, it's because they are. There's no apparently about it. By virtue, this also means they were not attempting to simulate real cars, otherwise they would have actually gone for sim, instead of simcade.

Review totally misses the mark.

I think Jeff simply didn't find the driving fun and is trying to explain why, not arrogant at all. And his thought process to understand why he doesn't find it fun, is that it isn't arcadey enough nor is it sim-ey enough. Just somewhere on the middle of the road in between. Fair enough. It's an opinion.

In reality, PGR fell in to this category too but got around feeling bland with the superbly implemented Kudos system, along with the strong and well executed progression system with a highly variable mix of trials, challenges and races. Without that, I'm sure PGR could have felt quite bland too. I reserve my judgement on DriveClub until I've had a chance to play it for myself, but Jeff certainly isn't alone with his opinion.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I also don't feel like having some philosophical debate on the meaning on bias, because for me it's the most natural in the world to have preconceived notions that have been shaped during your lifetime.

The stark refusal to entertain the notion that someone is as flawed as every other human seems to be either a misunderstanding on what the term means or is a result of the cult of personality that some people in the enthusiast press had developed around them.

But if everybody has an inherent bias then wouldn't it be just a naturally assumed part of having an opinion?

I'm not even sure if I would call having a bias a flaw really.
 

GlamFM

Banned
Feels like this page especially needs this again:

7I3qyAh.jpg

Someone win again?
 

-tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Once again it shows how little reviewers' opinions aligns with my own. The site that I have come to appreciate is GameTrailers. I think that the decimal-system they use is a bit over-the-top but I digress.

Driveclub seems like a solid ★★★★-game in my book, out of five, from the 45 minutes I've got to play before leaving for work today. Which would align nicely to what my opinions of the Evolution's output that I've played.

Motorstorm - ★★★★½
Motorstorm: Pacific Rift - ★★★½
Motorstorm: Apocalypse - ★★★★
Motorstorm: RC - ★★★

Pacific Rift is clearly the best Motorstorm game.
 

EBreda

Member
The problem is that handling well is the BARE MINIMUM a racing game should have, and even that is subjective.

People are talking about the handling in this game as though no other game in history has felt good.

The cold reality is, good handling exists in a shitload of different racing games.

How much you personally like it doesn't make the game better than all those other games with good handling.

For this game to be the amazing thing one want it to be, you have to be able to say more than "it feels really nice when I drive the car", and "it feels really fast" and the " the AI is challenging".

Those are not what make amazing or even great driving games. Hose are part and parcel, bare minimum requirements.

When people talk about the "soul" of the game, it's about the devs injecting their own personality into the game to push it past just racing and how well that personality is presented.

Some games have fantasy themes. Some have festival themes. Some have strict formulae like touring, bikes, open wheel etc. Some have cultural themes like NFS underground series.

In terms of DC, that personality is the social aspect, but have they done it spectacularly? Is it a truly standout part of the game that truly sets it apart? Would the series be able to thrive on that aspect alone?

For all the talk about DC not having gimmicks (which are not a bad thing by nature as long as implementation is good), that's exactly what the social focus is, but it isn't an astonishing addition, nor is it something fans of racers, especially arcade have never seen before.


The point is, without shining distinction and separation from other driving games that allow you to go round a circuit, p2p or drift and focusing on that alone, you open up the game to be criticised on that alone, when that alone has been done. A LOT. AND can even be replicated to a degree in other games with provided options.

And while you may believe that the accessible handling is the best thing since sliced bread and that AI who are obstacles to manoeuvre rather than competitors who acknowledge your existence is just how you want your A.I, you again open yourself upto the fact that maybe people find their implementation just okay.

You cannot build a house that's built on the same foundations many other houses are also built from, give it four walls and a roof and proclaim that your four walls and a roof are so amazing. Four walls and a roof are the bare minimum people expect from a house. If the way you made your walls is not to a persons taste, then what else is there for you to stand on? If your added splash of personality is also something other houses do or have done, your presentation of it needs to be completely unmatched and detailed implementation to be a standout addition.

Otherwise for majority opinion, it's just another average to okay to good house. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest, but that's all it can be. Because that's all you made.

Wow. Talk about waffling o_o

I'm okay with that.
 
You actually think 'opinion' and 'preference' are mutually exclusive things?

No, but I do think whinging about bias because a game you like wasn't given a review you agree with is stupid.

You sound like the biased one here. The reviewer explicitly explains their reasons for why they rate the game they way they do. You are just complaining about the possibility of bias without any evidence.

We all have different opinions. Just accept it.
 

Seventy70

Member
After playing the game myself I can see why the game got such low scores from certain people. It feels like they took an arcade racer and put a bunch of sim restrictions on it. For example, you can't bump into other cars or else you are penalized. At the same time, the AI VERY aggressively follows the racing line, so I don't know how they expect you to overtake the aggressive AI while also not hitting anything. It's also not rare for the AI to ram you from behind and you end up being penalized for it AND on top of that you have to restart the race and hope you don't get completely get screwed by the AI again. Not all racing games need a rewind button, but in this specific case it would have helped a lot. The game takes elements from sim and arcade racers that dont even work together in the slightest. It's fine that some people are enjoying the game, but I still don't understand what all this commotion was about review scores. They are spot on.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
But if everybody has an inherent bias then wouldn't it be just a naturally assumed part of having an opinion?

I'm not even sure if I would call having a bias a flaw really.
Yeah, I think we were just using different words to mean the same concepts.
 
So to summarize, Jeff Gerstmann does not know how to review games, is too old now and dislikes video games in general, and also is secretly biased towards Xbox.

O_O

People..... people...
 
It's beyond ridiculous that people are suggesting reviews they don't agree with are the result of bias, rather than simply differing opinions.

I agree with what you mean.

However, you also have to remember that reviews are much more than just personal opinion. They are written with the knowledge that a large number of people will be taking the reviewer's word on whether the game is worth buying or not. So it's not impossible that a reviewer could use it for a personal agenda (Be it simple fanboyism or even financial).

I'm not saying that has happened with DC reviews, which I doubt, but that is why professional reviews are closely scrutinised. When you have the power to influence people, there is always that little chance that you could take advantage.
 

KooopaKid

Banned
It feels like they took an arcade racer and put a bunch of sim restrictions on it. For example, you can't bump into other cars or else you are penalized. At the same time, the AI VERY aggressively follows the racing line, so I don't know how they expect you to overtake the aggressive AI while also not hitting anything. It's also not rare for the AI to ram you from behind and you end up being penalized for it AND on top of that you have to restart the race and hope you don't get completely get screwed by the AI again.

That's exactly what I was talking about earlier and what the Gamespot video review showed. It's quite baffling.
 
But if everybody has an inherent bias then wouldn't it be just a naturally assumed part of having an opinion?

I'm not even sure if I would call having a bias a flaw really.

No-one is saying that having 'bias' in and of itself is a flaw.

But, if you are biased towards one platform and are reviewing a game on your preferred platforms rival, then we have a problem.

Anyway, I've gotta do some work...
 

Seventy70

Member
So to summarize, Jeff Gerstmann does not know how to review games, is too old now and dislikes video games in general, and also is secretly biased towards Xbox.

O_O

People..... people...

The funny thing is that after I played the game, I found Gerstmann's review to be the most accurate. The game combines elements from two different genres that don't work together.
 
A review is just an opinion. Jeff has no ulterior motives, he likes what he likes. I do not understand why he thinks the driving is bad, I do not agree with his blanket statement that the game is bad. But I'm not going to flip out over it, I'm not going to cry or call him a piece of garbage or come up with some insane conspiracy theory as to why I think he's wrong. But I do think he's wrong and I do not agree with his opinion. I think Driveclub is great, and will only get better over time. The game will have a free version on PS+ so people should just judge for themselves and form their own opinion. People that like the game would be doing it more service by just recommending it to others instead of slamming reviewers.
 
Yeah, I think we were just using different words to mean the same concepts.

No, you and the other guy were annoying the hell out of me by implying Gerstmann is some kind of 13 year old xbox fanboy and then you countered my arguments by strawmanning the shit out of me by conflating said platform bias with the personal preference that is indeed part of any normal review.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But if everybody has an inherent bias then wouldn't it be just a naturally assumed part of having an opinion?

I'm not even sure if I would call having a bias a flaw really.

Like anything in life if you go overboard with it and apply it too much, it can become a problem.
 

Cheech

Member
I think it's pretty obvious the negative reviews are spot on with the PS+ version being delayed. Their excuse is flimsy and absurd.

If they can get two impatient people to cough up $60 for this piece of shit, the delay will be worthwhile.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The funny thing is that after I played the game, I found Gerstmann's review to be the most accurate. The game combines elements from two different genres that don't work together.


But he gave the game a 40% review. While most people have averaged out to giving the game almost DOUBLE that score. So he's really on the lower end of things. And that's fine for him. But it needs to be acknowledged that he's the outlier here.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
No, you and the other guy were annoying the hell out of me by implying Gerstmann is some kind of 13 year old xbox fanboy and then you countered my arguments by strawmanning the shit out of me by conflating said platform bias with the personal preference that is indeed part of any normal review.
And I think you're just annoyed because I'm not fellating a personality that you feel very attached to.
 
Once again it shows how little reviewers' opinions aligns with my own. The site that I have come to appreciate is GameTrailers. I think that the decimal-system they use is a bit over-the-top but I digress.

Driveclub seems like a solid ★★★★-game in my book, out of five, from the 45 minutes I've got to play before leaving for work today. Which would align nicely to what my opinions of the Evolution's output that I've played.

Motorstorm - ★★★★½
Motorstorm: Pacific Rift - ★★★½
Motorstorm: Apocalypse - ★★★★
Motorstorm: RC - ★★★

45 mins huh, seems like a good enough amount of time to score it
 
So I started playing this last night. I've been hyped for this game since Day 1, and so far I have been extremely happy with the game. But I can understand some of the criticisms now.

The graphics are amazing, but I am still slightly bummed that its 30 FPS. I've been playing Diablo 3 the most on the PS4 before this and I found it a bit jarring at first.
 
No, you and the other guy were annoying the hell out of me by implying Gerstmann is some kind of 13 year old xbox fanboy and then you countered my arguments by strawmanning the shit out of me by conflating said platform bias with the personal preference that is indeed part of any normal review.

Er....no. Show me where anyone has even implied that?

I think this is getting to you dude, go outside and get some fresh air.
 
Er....no. Show me where anyone has even implied that?

I think this is getting to you dude, go outside and get some fresh air.

->

It's the same sources every time that are hard to please when it comes to PS4 exclusives: Eurogamer, Gamespot and Giant Bomb.

I expect a cynical reception from these guys when it comes to PS4 1st party titles every time. I think all to some degree are more aligned to Xbox historically, and you have to accept that this will skew their opinions in some way just as it would any gamer that has a system preference.

Just because Gertsmann is on the internet doesn't mean he won't have a platform preference. It's not a crime obviously, but I don't think it's the best perspective to review games.
 
It's the same sources every time that are hard to please when it comes to PS4 exclusives: Eurogamer, Gamespot and Giant Bomb.

I expect a cynical reception from these guys when it comes to PS4 1st party titles every time. I think all to some degree are more aligned to Xbox historically, and you have to accept that this will skew their opinions in some way just as it would any gamer that has a system preference.

Just because Gertsmann is on the internet doesn't mean he won't have a platform preference. It's not a crime obviously, but I don't think it's the best perspective to review games.

http://whoareeurogamerbiasedtoward.tumblr.com
 
I enjoy Giant Bombs content, but Jeff's tastes tend to be out to lunch IMO (they don't allign with mine at all). Which is totally fine - I recognize that. When seeking one's opinion , you should find someone who's tastes are similar to yours. I don't understand the big uproar here.

That being said, this game looks average to middling and I'm not compelled to buy it until I can try the plus version.
 
The problem is that handling well is the BARE MINIMUM a racing game should have, and even that is subjective.

People are talking about the handling in this game as though no other game in history has felt good.

The cold reality is, good handling exists in a shitload of different racing games.

How much you personally like it doesn't make the game better than all those other games with good handling.

For this game to be the amazing thing one want it to be, you have to be able to say more than "it feels really nice when I drive the car", and "it feels really fast" and the " the AI is challenging".

Those are not what make amazing or even great driving games. Hose are part and parcel, bare minimum requirements.

When people talk about the "soul" of the game, it's about the devs injecting their own personality into the game to push it past just racing and how well that personality is presented.

Some games have fantasy themes. Some have festival themes. Some have strict formulae like touring, bikes, open wheel etc. Some have cultural themes like NFS underground series.

In terms of DC, that personality is the social aspect, but have they done it spectacularly? Is it a truly standout part of the game that truly sets it apart? Would the series be able to thrive on that aspect alone?

For all the talk about DC not having gimmicks (which are not a bad thing by nature as long as implementation is good), that's exactly what the social focus is, but it isn't an astonishing addition, nor is it something fans of racers, especially arcade have never seen before.


The point is, without shining distinction and separation from other driving games that allow you to go round a circuit, p2p or drift and focusing on that alone, you open up the game to be criticised on that alone, when that alone has been done. A LOT. AND can even be replicated to a degree in other games with provided options.

And while you may believe that the accessible handling is the best thing since sliced bread and that AI who are obstacles to manoeuvre rather than competitors who acknowledge your existence is just how you want your A.I, you again open yourself upto the fact that maybe people find their implementation just okay.

You cannot build a house that's built on the same foundations many other houses are also built from, give it four walls and a roof and proclaim that your four walls and a roof are so amazing. Four walls and a roof are the bare minimum people expect from a house. If the way you made your walls is not to a persons taste, then what else is there for you to stand on? If your added splash of personality is also something other houses do or have done, your presentation of it needs to be completely unmatched and detailed implementation to be a standout addition.

Otherwise for majority opinion, it's just another average to okay to good house. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest, but that's all it can be. Because that's all you made.

Wow. Talk about waffling o_o

Why are you talking so much shit about the gameplay and handling when you haven't even played DC?
 

ec0ec0

Member
This encapsulates the problem with so many of the DriveClub reviews today. It's embarrassing that this is just the first paragraph, but the entire review is case after case of reviewing the game for what he wishes it was rather than what it actually is. In this paragraph, for example, he's not actually telling us why this so-called era of "arcade-to-simulation.. car upgrades" is inherently superior to the alternative, or why not having that impacts the game negatively. And he does not address that issue at any point in his review, in fact later going so far as to shamefully suggest that the lack of upgrades meant the game felt unfinished. This is an acceptable critical thought? This is the bullshit that passes muster these days? Instead, it's Jeff gleefully wishing right from the start that he was playing a completely different racing game with completely different goals, rather than evaluating DriveClub as it succeeds (or not) at its own unique racing goals.

DriveClub is a pure skill-based racer; it intentionally does not have those upgrades because it harkens to a time when racing games had no inhibition between the skill of the player and the competition on the road. There's no amount of hours you can play to earn an arbitrary upgrade to make your race ever-so-slightly better than the others around you. There's no skill bonus you get from playing 20 hours more than your next competitor. It's just your skills, your competitors and the finish line. And there's absolutely no reason why any reviewer worth their salt should be even implying that upgrades are now some necessary component of the genre. They're not. They're one specific path in the genre, of which we exist in an industry perfectly capable of having great entries in all types of racing games.

There are both positives and negatives to this design strategy, and the goal would be to discuss how exactly DriveClub mishandles this approach rather than wishing it chose goals which would make it a completely different racing game. These criticisms are from a position of someone who thinks it's his place to dismiss an entire subcategory of racing games simply because he's too daft to understand the many myriad of ways such things are positive. It's the very definition of lacking the ability to properly analyze a product, and this is his fucking job. He's reviewing from the premise that it's bad from the get go, because he feels since other racing games have upgrades, that means ones which don't feel empty or boring by comparison!

He ends his opening nonsense salvo with an attack of "old school" racing games, as if there was anything inherently negative with those. Some of the best racing games ever made are old school, and are as no-frills and no-bullshit as DriveClub.

So many of these game reviewers don't actually understand the concept of criticism.

Amirox, like usual, taking the time needed to make an awesome post :)
 
Why are you talking so much shit about the gameplay and handling when you haven't even played DC?

So after reading all that, your well thought out rebuttal is something to do with my post history and an assertion that Ive never played DC?

Tell me your PSN and ill add you right now.

Edit: lmao, that's the worst ninja edit ever.

Forget about, not worth the time or effort.
 

braves01

Banned
Not a big racing guy, except maybe Mario Kart, but I will say Jeff's complaints about car customization seem fair if what he says is true. Even if there's no tuning, color changes seem pretty basic and should be in there.
 
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