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EA fined €10m over loot boxes as Dutch court sides with gambling authority
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
I for one, hold people responsible rather than the companies on this one.
lukilladog
Member
10 million, sure they will learn.
bitbydeath
Member
I for one, hold people responsible rather than the companies on this one.
Unfortunately there is no way to go after them though. At least with going after EA they can either stop the practice or drown in fines until bankruptcy.
Falcs
Banned
I don't disagree with you both, but loot boxes themselves are still shit. They negatively impact the quality of games. So I'm 100% in support for anything that combats them.
IFireflyl
Gold Member
You didn't read the article or the other article it links to, did you?
The issue is that there was already a gambling law in place, and they are protecting vulnerable groups from having easy access to an addictive lifestyle (gambling). No one cares about your ability/inability to buy loot boxes. It isn't relevant to the subject matter.
Your logic: "Developers should be allowed to put child pornography in their games. Learn some personal responsibility."
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Tesseract
Banned
the parents are responsible
MrFunSocks
Banned
You might need to do some reading yourself - they, and many others, argue that there is no "prize" in loot boxes because nothing in them has any real world monetary value.
People need to take personal responsibility. No matter how much you spend on loot boxes, the outcome is always the same - you never win any money, ever. You are just spending money on digital items that have literally zero real world value. Without that potential for real world monetary gain, most countries agree that there is nothing being gambled. All you're doing is buying a product.
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SkylineRKR
Member
I for one, hold people responsible rather than the companies on this one.
Yeah but that will be tough. And minors can't be blamed really. EA is triggering dopamine into constumers with their algorithms, and they know.
There's personal responsibility and then there's predatory practices aimed at children. There's a reason most countries don't allow minors to gamble, yet the marketing in the video game space is aimed at them. An age group that is severely impressionable.
And from that its not far to swipe dad's credit card when he isn't looking or waste your allowance/money you have earned. Both cases which aren't really the parents fault.
1 has severe repercussions and happens constantly and 2 is a basic level of trust you have with your child. No amount of parenting can fix your child being manipulated into lying to you.
ZehDon
Member
This is a pretty limited definition, and its not used legally for a reason. For example, in a casino, you don't gamble money, or gamble for money. In fact, on the floor of a casino, you won't find a single note or coin. You gamble that casino's tokens, or chips, instead. Because of these types of distinctions that have been used to try and work around regulations, you'll find most western nations include "games of chance" that result in "cash or prizes" that may or may not require "paid entry fees" in their regulations. By that definition, loot boxes are gambling. This concept you're floating of "real world monetary gain" isn't actually a real thing. To continue the casino example, in a casino, you don't actually win money. At all. You actually win tokens, or chips, that are unique to that casino. They hold no "real world monetary value". Only that specific casino will acknowledge those specific pieces of plastic as anything other than plastic. Yet, this is still considered gambling for obvious reasons.
To poke an easy hole in your statement: what specific product am I buying when I buy a loot box in a video game?
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Lovelygamer
Banned
EA Goes To Appeal FIFA Loot Box Decision In Netherlands
nintendosmash.com
EA Goes To Appeal FIFA Loot Box Decision In Netherlands
A representative of Electronic Arts commented on the recent decision of the Dutch authorities, according to which they face a fine of up to 10 million euros. The company said it was disappointed with the regulatory ruling and its possible impact on Dutch fans of the simulator, noting that...
nintendosmash.com
MrFunSocks
Banned
It is actually in the legal definition of gambling in most places - the chance to win money or something of real world value.
The casino chip example doesn’t work because those chips have real world monetary value. You take them to the casino cashier and they give you money for them. You cannot take a fortnite skin anywhere and get real world money for them.
When you buy a loot box in a video game you are paying for a random selection of digital items from a set of possible items. That’s it. None of them are worth any money, there’s never a “prize”. That’s why most countries have determined that they’re not gambling.
10101
Gold Member
Was my first thought too, this is literally nothing to them.
I can understand people getting pissed off with loot boxes (I’m not a fan myself) but in my mind they are no different to buying stickers or toys from a £1 machine. You don’t know what your are getting, but you are getting something, a product. Do I want my kids buying these loot boxes? No, but then that’s my job as a parent to educate and ensure that doesn’t happen. It’s not even close to gambling in my opinion, but I still would rather they weren’t in games!
Mithos
Member
Yeah fine them "hollywood" style and maybe they'll act.
Lol. EA probably laughing like, “that’s it?”
TheSHEEEP
Gold Member
That isn't a realistic option, though.
Kids are kids and will do stupid, irresponsible shit no matter how well you educate. Likewise, you cannot hover over them 24/7 to control their every move to make sure they don't buy loot boxes.
The best way is really to force game devs & publishers to implement a proper age verification (and not just "click here if you're 18+" lol) - or just stop the practice entirely (nothing of value will be lost).
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ZehDon
Member
You keep referring to "real world value". That's not a term that's used anywhere in relation to gambling. Gambling in most places is defined as "risking something of value for a chance to receive something of value". Value is not defined as a trade-able commodity - in fact, most prizes one wins in legal gambling are conditionally non-transferable and are considered void upon transfer - nor is it limited to legal tender; exchangeable currency. You need to educate yourself here.
You're mixing terms, playing fast and lose with the wording. We're talking about specifics, so let's get specifics. "Real world value", "real world monetary value". These are not real terms and have no specific meaning. Let's get specific.
And my casino example is entirely valid; chips are not legal tender and they have no have inherent value. The casino that issues them honours the value they ascribe to the chip - there is no law that stipulates, maintains, or controls that worth. Take it outside of the casino, and it is worthless. It has no value, except to the company that issues it.
Ask yourself "why can't I do this?" And the answer is quite simple: Epic doesn't allow it, because it prevents them from controlling access to said skins. Why buy a loot box from Epic to gamble for my skin, when I could just buy it for $10.00 on eBay? And so, this is done to maintain the value of said skins to Epic who sells them. Much like the casino chips, they're only worth something to the company that issues them if the company is the only one that issues them. If something can be inherently devalued, such as if I could trade and/or sell my skins, then it must therefore inherently have value. Your argument doesn't hold up.
So, I'm risking my money for a chance to get a skin that I may want, and thus the skin holds value? That's gambling. The skin is the prize, the money is the entry fee. And falling back on the in-doubt-and-currently-in-question legal definitions to bolster your definition of gambling isn't wise. You're arguing that countries don't consider it gambling, so it's not gambling... in a thread about a country that decided its gambling.
When "most countries" catch up and change the legal classification of loot boxes to gambling, will you then admit that your argument is flawed? If yes, then you're above argumentation is entirely null and void; you're just agreeing with the law, right or wrong, which is malleable. If no, then why bother mention the currently legal definition at all?
Personal responsibility is not mutually exclusive with law and regulations
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notseqi
Member
You made the point but jeez is that example unnecessary hyperbole.
Tesseract
Banned
i want them to go even harder and make a competitive fps where i can buy bullets and gamble whatever on matches
each their own, i see the other side of the argument but vehemently disagree with any kind of regulation
Tesseract
Banned
it's still the parent's fault in cases where children are swiping their card, maybe raise your kids so they don't do that kinda thing
shit parents who cannot keep their children in line are the problem
Tesseract
Banned
because the people at the top are a bunch of sour and crusty bitches who prolly got some shit kids that ran wild with accounts and racked ungodly bills
FunkMiller
Gold Member
If EA and Ubisoft went under tomorrow, the video games industry would be immeasurably better.
notseqi
Member
Reason for the initial complaint might have been unsupervised kids going to town on a poor Visa-Card but the Gambling accusation was the easiest to push through to further 'their' cause. This complaint could have come by a simple consumer watchdog-type agency that analysed a question put to them by one of EAs customers. Services of these agencies are usually for free in the EU and acts as mediation before legal steps are taken, basically 'whats my recourse here?'. Customer asks, Agency answers 'we don't really know whats possible here', Customer goes home, Agency follows up.
Hypothetical but plausible.
What do you think about this: If EA wants to sell their game in the EU and have a gambling mechanic in the game, they can. Make the game 18+, apply for a license in gambling like anybody else offering the opportunity to win big, or nothing at all.
Fully with you on that. Have a good product and you'll get your whales.
I'll even buy shit I won't use (or gift it away if possible) to support your F2P game.
Tesseract
Banned
i'm fine with all that but generally want for less walls and regulation, not more
maybe some parental controls for this stuff would help, don't even give kids the option to look at purchasables
otherwise yeah, 18+ with a license would be fine
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Tesseract
Banned
there's a few definitions of gambling, the primary definition involves playing games of chance for money
i think we can all agree that's a gamble, things get slipper when money is exchanged on risky actions in the hope of desired results, which is often the case with loot boxes or stat boosts
age restrictions and licenses would be fine, like
notseqi
mentioned above, alleviating the headache of racked bills and consumer complaints
i think we can all agree that's a gamble, things get slipper when money is exchanged on risky actions in the hope of desired results, which is often the case with loot boxes or stat boosts
age restrictions and licenses would be fine, like
notseqi
mentioned above, alleviating the headache of racked bills and consumer complaints
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notseqi
Member
Definitely parental controls. If a 4-digit PIN system worked for our TV in the 90s, why does it not work here?
Tesseract
Banned
absolutely, i'm on board with that
parental controls have waned these last generations, needs significant overhaul
10101
Gold Member
It’s very realistic, I do it lol. You don’t need to hover over them checking what they are buying, my kids get an allowance but their accounts are tied to mine. I know what they are buying, they know I know, etc, etc. Vetting your kids purchases is basic parenting, so calling it unrealistic is odd. I agree nothing of value would be lost though, loot boxes are shit.
notseqi
Member
But it's a lot of work and I don't want to engage with my kids! Hand me my smartphone, I need to check what other people are doing.