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Easy Allies |EZOT| Good Vibes and Good Hype
- Thread starter Hasney
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I'm not defending NMS right now, but in one post you showed yourself as misinformed and that was just a quick "fact" in a post, not a long-ish conversation with four different voices.
Brandon obviously has a different take on marketing stuff than most of us, but I don't see what was wrong with the conversation as a whole. They don't need a point by point rundown of each thing in the Reddit post, the multiplayer was specifically brought up and I thought it was a good, rational conversation and really liked having Brandon and Damiani at different ends of the spectrums.
brotkasten
Member
I'm fine with day 1 patches (says the guy with a high speed connection), as long as the game on the disc is the intended version of the game, playable from start to finish, delivering a experience that the devs want others to play. That's why I agree with Damiani on that point and think Square made the right decision to delay the game so they could put the patch on disc. Otherwise you might as well go the PC games route and just include a download code in your box, because the disc is just as worthless.
I do think it's unreasonable to demand that from mmos or mmo-ish games, like Destiny. But for single player games and especially RPGs? Yeah, I want them to be playable 10 years from now, when the servers might not be online anymore.
I also thought it was really, really weird how dismissive Jones was, claiming Damiani's stance on day 1 patches was of trollish nature.
And yes, I absolutely do hope that they get a ton of "corrections" about the state of day 1 patches and how it affects players around the world. Not even 6-12 months ago, Sony's PSN CDN sucked big time, even on a 100 mbit connection and downloading patches was an awful experience. To claim that it's not a big deal anymore in 2016 might be right for your experience, but get some perspective. Even if it takes me only 30 or 40 minutes to download a 10 GB patch, depending on when I get home from work, those 30 minutes are enough to not make me want to play it at all that night, because it seriously cuts into the little game time I got left that evening.
Speaking of that, why are they not using on-clip mics anymore?
I do think it's unreasonable to demand that from mmos or mmo-ish games, like Destiny. But for single player games and especially RPGs? Yeah, I want them to be playable 10 years from now, when the servers might not be online anymore.
I also thought it was really, really weird how dismissive Jones was, claiming Damiani's stance on day 1 patches was of trollish nature.
And yes, I absolutely do hope that they get a ton of "corrections" about the state of day 1 patches and how it affects players around the world. Not even 6-12 months ago, Sony's PSN CDN sucked big time, even on a 100 mbit connection and downloading patches was an awful experience. To claim that it's not a big deal anymore in 2016 might be right for your experience, but get some perspective. Even if it takes me only 30 or 40 minutes to download a 10 GB patch, depending on when I get home from work, those 30 minutes are enough to not make me want to play it at all that night, because it seriously cuts into the little game time I got left that evening.
Speaking of that, why are they not using on-clip mics anymore?
PS4 software still sucks as it selects the wrong PSN server to download patches. You have to keep pausing and restarting or putting it in rest mode where it seems to work there.
But yeah, Day 1 patches should be avoided where possible for sure, but I can't remember who said it, but I agree that FF XV will still have a day 1 patch. I'm more willing to believe that 4Chan post from last month that got the story details right that said SE only had 2 hours running on console at that point.
I don't think they own any right now. Have they used them in anything?
But yeah, Day 1 patches should be avoided where possible for sure, but I can't remember who said it, but I agree that FF XV will still have a day 1 patch. I'm more willing to believe that 4Chan post from last month that got the story details right that said SE only had 2 hours running on console at that point.
I don't think they own any right now. Have they used them in anything?
Too many memories of Schluffe.... RIP old buddy... RIP....
AcademicSaucer
Member
The thing with day one patches is , if your game is all kinds of broken why the fuck am I even buying your shit on disk, years from now if I want to play the game I bought and the servers are not there anymore then I'm fucked.
Fuck big day one patches when you have a data cap too.
Fuck big day one patches when you have a data cap too.
WiseSplinteR
Member
"When last did a patch take 20mins to download?"
Must be nice
---
It is unfortunate, but it seems like console and game makers don't care too much about people who don't live in first world countries.
Which makes sense from a business perspective I guess, we're a tiny slice of the pie.
Tabletop spoilers / questions:
Must be nice
---
It is unfortunate, but it seems like console and game makers don't care too much about people who don't live in first world countries.
Which makes sense from a business perspective I guess, we're a tiny slice of the pie.
Tabletop spoilers / questions:
So: Kuo followed the captain back to his ship after witnessing him murder Jeramiah to appease the statue.
Jeramiah was supposed to be a nice guy so that makes sense with the statues stipulation of an "innocent" sacrifice.
What I don't get is how the captain knew Therese's name and why he wrote that note, I'm pretty sure they never met until they boarded the ship?
Jeramiah was supposed to be a nice guy so that makes sense with the statues stipulation of an "innocent" sacrifice.
What I don't get is how the captain knew Therese's name and why he wrote that note, I'm pretty sure they never met until they boarded the ship?
Grayfox341
Member
It's a good question. There is an item that explains this, but I'm not sure if the group will be able to find it at this point. Might have to find another way to incorporate the information.
"When last did a patch take 20mins to download?"
Must be nice
---
It is unfortunate, but it seems like console and game makers don't care too much about people who don't live in first world countries.
Which makes sense from a business perspective I guess, we're a tiny slice of the pie.
If Sony's network wasn't this abysmal, it would be better for most of us. I have quite fast internet and on XBL and Steam downloads go fast, but on PSN I have had a 50MB patch taking more than 20 minutes. Sometimes it goes well, but most of the time it is unlogically slow.
I use a wired connection to a wireless router which is used as a wireless client, but this is also true for my Xbox One and PC as well and I usually get 3 - 5 MB/s on there. Sony should really fix their network.
That said, comparing to PS3 it is much much better. A friend of mine bought GT5 some years after release and he had to wait on 20+GB of patches and because he had a limit on his internet he couldn't play it for a month (+ it downloaded very very slowly as well).
I am also not against day one patches to be honest. I understand it is frustrating for people with slow internet or without an internet connection on their console, but I rather have them working a bit more at their game than to leave it riddled with bugs. A games has to come out at one point and it seems like a constant fight between publishers and the developers. The developers want to keep working on their game and the publisher wants it out so they can get their money back. It is a difficult thing.
WiseSplinteR
Member
Awesome! You guys are KILLING it with TTE, so good.
The setting is very compelling this season, really get the sense that events are moving things forward in the world, even though the player characters are somewhat oblivious haha.
The story has taken some very interesting turns now, can't wait to find out what the hell is going on.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Just finished watching the Mario kart tournament and overall it was fantastic but once again damianis input just saps all the fun out of the show. Just felt like it went against the spirit of what everyone was going for and ended up being cheap and not very fun.
I don't want to hate and would like to keep things jolly but he just always sticks out compared to everyone else and ends up being a negative influence on the shows.
I mean the amount of shit kyle got for his bet shenanigans yet at least it was fun whereas I can't really say that for damiani most of the time, especially his sections of the tournament.
I don't want to hate and would like to keep things jolly but he just always sticks out compared to everyone else and ends up being a negative influence on the shows.
I mean the amount of shit kyle got for his bet shenanigans yet at least it was fun whereas I can't really say that for damiani most of the time, especially his sections of the tournament.
Is somebody writing down short summaries of Tabletop Escapades episodes ("the plot so far")?
I am usually listening to them while I am doing something else, and often times I miss something or just need a short recap of what happened the last episodes.
I am usually listening to them while I am doing something else, and often times I miss something or just need a short recap of what happened the last episodes.
brotkasten
Member
I'd love that!
Yeah, I'd rather have that as the $10 pledge. Or make it $15.
HylianScribe
Member
Literally have no idea where you are coming from. My input sapped out all the fun? I hadn't touched Mario Kart 64 in who knows how long, years at least. Sorry that I played the shit out of it as a kid and it, along with Goldeneye 007, was what everyone I knew played until a game called Smash came along. So yea, I knew how to actually play it, which you can say is unfair but what am I supposed to do about it? I think you're just being a bit unfair IMO. Cheap and not very fun? I have nothing else to say about this, you're entitled to an opinion, but I don't agree with it at all and don't see your side at all. I can understand criticisms when I'm on the podcasts and I work to address/fix those, but I don't agree with this at all. Unless you are mixing up the tournament with the new podcast? But I don't think that is the case.
Dirtyshubb
Member
I mean I don't know how you can't see the difference in how you were playing the game compared to everyone else - camping and waiting to get the item you wanted instead of going with whatever the game gave you like everyone else was.
It isn't a comment on your experience playing the game but on the way you decided to play. Everyone else was 99% of the time going full pelt, accepting the items they got and trying there best to use what they could but instead we had multiple occasions of you just sitting there with a bored look on your face waiting to get that one perfect weapon you like before you would go on the offence.
When you have every other player using shitty weapons etc. As part of the fun of the game and just rolling with it and then one single person just playing it in a cold, calculated manner it really sticks out. I mean everyone was determined to win yet the way you played felt like the equivalent of a Pokemon player with spreadsheets to try and game the system instead of just going with what you got.
Not exactly sure where the 'sorry I played the shit out of it' comment came from, not only was I not saying that you had no experience of the game but it also comes across as 'yeah well I was playing the RIGHT way' which kind of proves me earlier point.
This isn't an attack on you as a person I want to assure you, just that the way the tournament was played was jolly, exciting and frantic yet when you have one player just sitting there many times trying to game the system it as I said sapped the fun out of it.
You may want to accuse me of being petty, but I think my point is fair and just.
Nah, couldn't disagree more. Especially when those hot strats led to the best moment in a lot of the group streams.
The walk off after the frame trap without Bosman realising he's lost yet and then the delayed reaction was perfect.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
No issue with Damiani's MK play. It obviously added to the fun
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Damiani's been better on podcasts recently but he can get confused by his own points and go on a bit. The Vita discussion wasn't interesting at all. But good work keeping the "trolling" to more of a minimum. Stop er... singing theme tunes of things though. Ear poison.
The MK Tourney was a good one-off, but I'd hate to see cheap gamebreaking camping shit turn up in subsequent tournaments just making them ultimately pointless. A good multiplayer game rule is "Would this result in no-one coming over to my house to play games with me ever again if I kept doing this?"
The MK Tourney was a good one-off, but I'd hate to see cheap gamebreaking camping shit turn up in subsequent tournaments just making them ultimately pointless. A good multiplayer game rule is "Would this result in no-one coming over to my house to play games with me ever again if I kept doing this?"
Napalm_Frank
Member
I agree and disagree with Damiani/Brad about Vita. I think ''Vita 3000'' is much more plausible than many think (most people on gaf think it's a total impossibility). I'm not saying it will happen but this is the company that released PSP E1000 (or ''PSP Street'') in 2011 for EU only when the machine was hardly moving any units just to see how it would affect the sales bringing the cost to sub 100€.
What I disagree about is the memory cards. Sony is in a similar position with Vita as Nintendo is with Wii U. Removing the memory card (or making a price drop for Wii U) would cost them more money than it would bring in new customers at this point. The memory cards have had huge profit margins during the Vita's life and amount to most of the cash they have made from hardware side.
Also they didn't really go to early days with it but I also think people vastly overestimate how much the memory cards hurt Vita. The thing is the memory cards are the reason why Sony was able to get Vita's price to parity with 3DS back when it was announced. If it did use SD cards or whatever I'm pretty sure the hardware price would have gone up anyway to reflect that. It would probably have been cheaper to customers in the long run but it's hard to underestimate the effect of low price tag (this actually kinda ties into the this weeks topic of announcements being lies. Vita was surprisingly cheap but you pretty much did need to buy a memory card to use it. Same with PS4 reveal, surprisingly low price but they very sneakily had the small print of ''oh, and you'll be paying us monthly fees for multiplayer from now on''). People still hammer Sony about 599 (with good reason) when there was a 499 model available day 1.
What I disagree about is the memory cards. Sony is in a similar position with Vita as Nintendo is with Wii U. Removing the memory card (or making a price drop for Wii U) would cost them more money than it would bring in new customers at this point. The memory cards have had huge profit margins during the Vita's life and amount to most of the cash they have made from hardware side.
Also they didn't really go to early days with it but I also think people vastly overestimate how much the memory cards hurt Vita. The thing is the memory cards are the reason why Sony was able to get Vita's price to parity with 3DS back when it was announced. If it did use SD cards or whatever I'm pretty sure the hardware price would have gone up anyway to reflect that. It would probably have been cheaper to customers in the long run but it's hard to underestimate the effect of low price tag (this actually kinda ties into the this weeks topic of announcements being lies. Vita was surprisingly cheap but you pretty much did need to buy a memory card to use it. Same with PS4 reveal, surprisingly low price but they very sneakily had the small print of ''oh, and you'll be paying us monthly fees for multiplayer from now on''). People still hammer Sony about 599 (with good reason) when there was a 499 model available day 1.
The memory cards are the exact reason I didn't buy one at launch and I still find them a joke. It wasn't until a ridiculous deal on a Tearaway bundle that made it worth my money. Even then, I bought less games because my card was constantly full. The memory cards were the single reason I spent less money in Sonys handheld ecosystem.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Here's the question tho, back in the day when Vita was still considered to be ''in the competition'' when it was coming out would you have bought it at launch if it was much more expensive but without memory cards?
For the bigger picture, I don't think people would have, not in the numbers that would have mattered anyway. I don't think memory cards killed the Vita, mobile did. Sony might have been able to sell much more units with Vita if they just eat the cost of having no profits from hardware side but it would have still been a losing battle and probably would have cost them a lot of money. Look at PSP GO, it had large internal memory but one reason it totally bombed was because of the price despite dropping the need for expensive Sony memory cards that other PSP models had. In fact I think PSP GO was pretty much a testing ground for Vita and what could have been and people didn't want it.
Yes. I could have had much bigger memory cards to hold all my stuff or if not, at least multiple memory cards like I had on my 3DS. I'd actually rather they cut the power to keep the margins up if they needed it than try and push the proproitary memory cards because as a power user, I'm either going to want multiple or upgrade to bigger ones when they're available.
Shooting them a message through Patreon itself is probably the best option. The couple of times I've used it they've gotten back to me quick.
pretty sure you can use paypal accounts to donate through patreon
AcademicSaucer
Member
Dude no, what are you even talking about ?
Amazing podcast!
I haven't heard one of these heated ones from the Allies in a long time. I gotta say before anything, that mad respect everyone has for each others opinion is remarkable and something I want to see everyone else do, specially the people I myself hear upon. Even in the most heated conversation of the day-1 patch, everyone were trying to understand each other points even if they were heated and a few times non-sensical.
That said, I don't stand by the point of Damiani, patches are a necessary evil now, and even if they are kind of bad, they will be present, Dev costs and times are pretty high in our industry nowadays and as this amazing blog explains, the system is not well adapted to them, so the patches are just the necessary evil to adapt the clogged system to our days. Don't want them? then the certification system must change, otherwise we will see them all the time, because each day a game passes without being in the market, the hype deflates and the sales suffer in the end.
as for the rest of the podcast, I must say I impressively agreed with Jones on the "lies" part, we are all constantly lied when we are shown trailers, because we are shown just a part of a whole they don't want us to see, I can totally see where he going with the argument, being good or bad, they are lying with anything they show us until we have the product ourselves.
I haven't heard one of these heated ones from the Allies in a long time. I gotta say before anything, that mad respect everyone has for each others opinion is remarkable and something I want to see everyone else do, specially the people I myself hear upon. Even in the most heated conversation of the day-1 patch, everyone were trying to understand each other points even if they were heated and a few times non-sensical.
That said, I don't stand by the point of Damiani, patches are a necessary evil now, and even if they are kind of bad, they will be present, Dev costs and times are pretty high in our industry nowadays and as this amazing blog explains, the system is not well adapted to them, so the patches are just the necessary evil to adapt the clogged system to our days. Don't want them? then the certification system must change, otherwise we will see them all the time, because each day a game passes without being in the market, the hype deflates and the sales suffer in the end.
as for the rest of the podcast, I must say I impressively agreed with Jones on the "lies" part, we are all constantly lied when we are shown trailers, because we are shown just a part of a whole they don't want us to see, I can totally see where he going with the argument, being good or bad, they are lying with anything they show us until we have the product ourselves.
Exploratory
Banned
Pod was fiery this week I like it. I definitely don't agree with Jones on the idea that trailers are the same thing as blatantly lying like Sean Murray and Hello Games did. Theres a distinct difference.
TC McQueen
Member
When did this come up? I'd love to see the Allies do some Gundam game content, although I think Gundam Breaker 3 would be a better choice (at least when it comes to streaming/recording).
Yup, framing what you havein a controlled way, to manipulate the audience into a certain emotional state is marketing, it may not be honest, but it's more or less fair.
Blatantly lie about what's in the product you're selling, is false advertising, it's never fair, and shouldn't be condoned.
And again, when someone like Ubisoft pulls shit like this, nobody really raises up in their defense.
brotkasten
Member
Trailers are there to represent the game in the best possible way, be it gameplay or story-wise. I really don't see it as blatantly lying to the customer. And Jones reasoning was frustrating as hell. If I hear a song in a trailer, I certainly don't expect it to be in the game, especially not if it licensed, like Damiani said. It's purely part of the presentation, much like when Kojima walked to Brothers in Arms on stage. No one would expect the Fury Road soundtrack in Death Stranding because of that, come on.
And yes, games change over the course of the development. Features get toned down or cut. It happens. But at least be transparent about it. Not to the tiniest detail (like space battles between two fractions, for example), but if your multiplayer component gets the cut, then say it. If your simulated star system gets the cut, say it.
Not even recognizing or addressing the criticism well after launch is probably the worst for me. I don't necessarily feel bad for Sean Murray, but definitely for the rest of the team.
And yes, games change over the course of the development. Features get toned down or cut. It happens. But at least be transparent about it. Not to the tiniest detail (like space battles between two fractions, for example), but if your multiplayer component gets the cut, then say it. If your simulated star system gets the cut, say it.
Not even recognizing or addressing the criticism well after launch is probably the worst for me. I don't necessarily feel bad for Sean Murray, but definitely for the rest of the team.
The point about "lies" is that marketing is presented to people in a way that makes the product look the best.
You get concept cars. When the car drives off the machine line and it doesn't look like the concept car, is there a venomous internet fury? No. People just need to get a grip when seeing games for the first time, understand that E3 is a marketing circus and these games are being presented for stockholders, press and other developers to see the game as the developers currently envision it.
Plus, posting comments like "Cant wait for the downgrade!" on YouTube videos or down voting to oblivion doesn't make you smarter than the developers or publishers because they're not trying to trick you. They're trying to get you interested in the product.
As I said earlier in the thread. It is the responsibility of every person to keep their own expectations and hype in check. Do not be angry for being marketed to.
You get concept cars. When the car drives off the machine line and it doesn't look like the concept car, is there a venomous internet fury? No. People just need to get a grip when seeing games for the first time, understand that E3 is a marketing circus and these games are being presented for stockholders, press and other developers to see the game as the developers currently envision it.
Plus, posting comments like "Cant wait for the downgrade!" on YouTube videos or down voting to oblivion doesn't make you smarter than the developers or publishers because they're not trying to trick you. They're trying to get you interested in the product.
As I said earlier in the thread. It is the responsibility of every person to keep their own expectations and hype in check. Do not be angry for being marketed to.
Sure we all understand how marketing works, but this has nothing to do with blatant lies about what is and isn't in your game.
If R° came out and said "sure in GTA6 there will be 3 cities!", and when the game comes out, there's only one: "Well, sorry we lied so the game would sound better and you'd buy it" isn't a good answer.
I wasn't sure what Damiani was asking for with his Vita discussion.
"Remote Play doesn't work as well as it should. Why can't I just flick my finger and have my PS4 game already on my Vita and then I can continue playing while I'm out and about?"
Ummm, because the Vita isn't as powerful as a PS4 and remote play requires and internet connection to stream the game from your console to your hand held? The Vita isn't suddenly running your PS4 game, your PS4 is still doing that.
There's literally no way to do this unless you pull a Nintendo and have your handheld be the base system and that's the thing that connects to your tv when you are home. How would they make a hand held that can natively run a game like Uncharted 4? Does that tech even exist? If it does it would cost an arm and a leg I'm sure.
Also, I'd love to get my friends into TTE but that first episode is rough to start with. There's like 30-45 minutes of lore and set up. I liken it to having to get through the first season of Buffy. If you can do it, it's so worth it but many people won't have the attention span to do it.
"Remote Play doesn't work as well as it should. Why can't I just flick my finger and have my PS4 game already on my Vita and then I can continue playing while I'm out and about?"
Ummm, because the Vita isn't as powerful as a PS4 and remote play requires and internet connection to stream the game from your console to your hand held? The Vita isn't suddenly running your PS4 game, your PS4 is still doing that.
There's literally no way to do this unless you pull a Nintendo and have your handheld be the base system and that's the thing that connects to your tv when you are home. How would they make a hand held that can natively run a game like Uncharted 4? Does that tech even exist? If it does it would cost an arm and a leg I'm sure.
Also, I'd love to get my friends into TTE but that first episode is rough to start with. There's like 30-45 minutes of lore and set up. I liken it to having to get through the first season of Buffy. If you can do it, it's so worth it but many people won't have the attention span to do it.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Twitter also works. They're all really responsive.
The Day 1 Patch discussion was a bit frustrating. Yeah, games should ship with the gold disc as a playable and feature complete version and a Day 1 Patch shouldn't have to be relied upon to fix major issues... but Day 1 Patches are still good.
There's regularly 2-3 months between a game going Gold and going to print and the time it actually gets into stores and gets released. During that time Developers aren't just sitting on their hands and they absolutely should use that extra time to further polish the game, if necessary, and put a Day 1 Patch out, or work on extending content. It's a very good use of time to make a Day 1 Patch.
Mario Kart was hilarious and TTE continues to be amazing.
There's regularly 2-3 months between a game going Gold and going to print and the time it actually gets into stores and gets released. During that time Developers aren't just sitting on their hands and they absolutely should use that extra time to further polish the game, if necessary, and put a Day 1 Patch out, or work on extending content. It's a very good use of time to make a Day 1 Patch.
Mario Kart was hilarious and TTE continues to be amazing.
Itchy//Tasty
Member
I think it's important to differentiate between giant Day 1 patches that fundamentally change the game and add features like the NMS one, and smaller ones that simply offer bug fixes and performance boosts. The former shouldn't happen IMO - just finish your damn game. On that count, I agree with what Damiani was saying. Seems like FFXV's patch would've been pretty significant, so it's probably a good decision to delay the game.
I get that... and I agree.
In the case of NMS, there should have been a delay if the patch fundamentally changed the game, however in the case of FFXV, the huge patch is supposedly because the game is broken as hell and they needed to fix a lot, so the gargantuan patch was to fix the mess.
Exploratory
Banned
This has nothing to do with saying "Yeah we're totally going to have an aliens v zombies mode in the game." And then just straight up not having it. There's a difference between concept art or better graphics in trailers and blatantly saying lies about your game.
On a different topic is EZA covering Gamescom at all? Or do we have to wait for next weeks pod?
brotkasten
Member
Your analogy is a bit flawed. CG trailers are what concept cars are to the auto industry. People understand that the final game is not going to look like the CG reveal trailer, so that certainly isn't the problem. But when you announce your all electric car with a great range at the Detroit Auto Show and then release it a year later as a hybrid, people would be pissed.
learn to accept opinions you don't agree.
I actually think Damiani was amazing this week, discussion is exactly what I like about podcasts and he was killing at it
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