EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"

CitizenCope said:
It's making me think about it. Just sucks as I'm a Fable, Halo, Gears guy and never was a big fan of Sony exclusives. The big ones like Killzone, GOW and Uncharted were meh to me as I played them all. BUT I will not play on a console that plays games at a much lower frame rate when another one runs better and is $100 cheaper. Can't do it. Won't do it.
We'll see what happens with the launch titles. For now I only have an XB1 preordered. Damn it MS wtf did you do? Or not do?
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Ya, I guess I have to see both versions of BF4 first to really decide. I'm not terribly attached to the XBox exclusives, but their controllers always seem to fit me way better and I'm accustomed to XBL now.
I have both pre-ordered, was just using the PS4 pre-order to guage how fast Best Buy will be able to deliver my XB1 the next week, and then was going to return the PS4. But now....dammit!
 
lyrick said:
Cerny opened the floodgates by emphasizing "Supercharged PC architecture" all those time he talked to the press. With that kind of inclusion Sony pretty much made PC comparison admissible in any discussion that involves the PS4.
Click to expand...

This thread sure went to shit. Can't say that I appreciate some of the PC folks trying to make PC a relevant part of this discussion.
 
Man - I wish we could get some thread summaries up in here. I hate coming to these threads late. Have Penello or Nelson posted in here yet?

*goes to search*
 
cyberheater said:
Then it makes MS's decision to go down this route even more puzzling. SMH MS.
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Microsoft's goal with the xbox was always to turn it into a media box, which it now is. It plays games but also has tv, which a lot of old people want. It's a "do everything" kind of system which is what they wanted to create.
 
I have a feeling or am at least hoping that forced parity won't be as big of an issue if the PS4 consistently outsells the Xbox One in NA and has Xbox 360-like attach rates. At least in NA, third-party publishers' software sells better on 360 and, obviously, 360 has sold better in the states than PS3. I'm sure it's a combination of not wanting to bite the hand that feeds you and a little subtle or overt pressure from MS. If PS4 sells really well all bets are off and publishers will go where the money is and that platform they sell the most software on.

I have no problem trusting that devs really want to take advantage of the PS4's power, but I don't trust publishers. I would not be surprised at all if the suits try to force parity or intentionally gimp PS4 third-party titles to protect the appearance of the "product".
 
This is interesting

I still have no idea what will happen in the long run

So I guess the MS holding multiplats back is not that crazy a theory anymore?

Should make for interesting multiplat comparisons
 
fallingdove said:
This thread sure went to shit. Can't say that I appreciate some of the PC folks trying to make PC a relevant part of this discussion.
Click to expand...

When don't they? I can't speak for GAF, but on other sites I frequent, it always devolves into a discussion about how much better PC is than consoles.

We get it: PC>>>>>>>>all. Can we get back to the topic at hand now, please?
 
cyberheater said:
Then it makes MS's decision to go down this route even more puzzling. SMH MS.
Click to expand...

They are going into a market that is not there, trying to create that one product that dominates as a solution, the problem is, it is solutions to problems that are not there.

It doesn't know what it is first and foremost. if its a high powered Wii, a Cable box, a core gaming system. Chasing different markets to close them all up and become the absolute when the reality is they have pissed off a large percentage of their userbase and are playing catch up to something, had they listened to their audience, wouldn't have to catch up in the first place.
 
0PpGIf0.gif

XBOX ONE HYPE TRAIN

Sorry for the tragic loss in the actual accident
(not the one in the gif)
 
Spades said:
Unfortunately, people on GAF ignore that this happened for some reason.
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Nobody is ignoring it. People are just smart enough to understand that an apples to oranges generation cannot be used as a metric for an apples to apples generation. This shouldn't be difficult to grasp.
 
szaromir said:
No, you only said you don't play on PC because it needs to be plugged to the wall/TV, as if consoles didn't need that. That's a BS reason, but if you want to limit your choices you are of course free to do so.
Click to expand...
The problem with pc gaming(though I'm a pc gamer myself) is the fact that you can't know for sure if a game is going to work properly. You can buy a new game, after being hyped and pumped for it, and then the thing just won't work. So you have to wait for fixes, or updates etc and even then you are not positive it will work. There are Some games that work, but have terrible perofrmance and are barely playable.

With consoles you know what you are getting, most of the time. The game will work, and the framerate is usually stable(even if it's 30 fps for most games)

Take the Assassin's creed series for example(especially 3). The pc versions are filled with issues and framerate drops while the consoles versions are stable and playable.
 
I want the Xbox one so bad because of the exclusives but this is bullshit. If you had slightly less power and were as easy to develop for than my decision would be way easier. I would have bought at the higher price tag if you were on par. One of the exciting things about new consoles is new tech and both went pretty conservative on power but the x1 gpu is a joke. That gpu can't cost them more than 60 dollars and yet the console is 100 dollars more than the competition. I'm okay with kinect but there is not even a single launch game to showcase it at all. I have been an avid Xbox fan since 2003 and then you just decide the tech isn't that important. I didn't care about the always online and all that stuff but I am so upset that they didn't have any interest in competing with Sony on raw power. They had some demographic in mind that doesn't buy 500 dollar consoles in the first place. I don't want to spend more on a console that has NO technological advantages than the conpetition. I hope you read this Larry and relay to the the people who make certain decision how some of your fans are feeling about this.
 
Spades said:
Unfortunately, people on GAF ignore that this happened for some reason.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that reason is the vastly different and unintuitive architecture of the PS3. It was difficult to optimize and program for, thus only first parties were the devs that really got some good stuff out of the system.

Here, the PS4 and Xbone share pretty much the same architecture. In fact, the Xbone's architecture is more complicated this time, on top of having weaker specs. Both of those point pretty clearly to the fact that the Xbone can not match the PS4 in terms of game performance. This is why the PS3/360 comparison isn't analogous this time around.

That being said, games make consoles good, not specs. However, MS have also failed to deliver on a wide variety of exclusive games on the last years of the 360, which is yet another reason for concern. It's too early to say for either side that the "war" is won or lost, but MS have a lot of catching up to do this time around, just like Sony circa PS3 announcement.
 
lyrick said:
Cerny opened the floodgates by emphasizing "Supercharged PC architecture" all those time he talked to the press. With that kind of inclusion Sony pretty much made PC comparison admissible in any discussion that involves the PS4.
Click to expand...

The architecture is supercharged compared to a regular PC's. You fill in the rest with your own insecurity or superiority complex.
 
IMO, not enough.

There is still room for Esram / Move Engine / Audio / aggregate bw Chip spin.

I am hoping for a 2.0 ghz / 1.0 ghz upclock for PS4. Maybe then we can put this thing to bed and focus on something else.
 
Ol No Bones said:
I want the Xbox one so bad because of the exclusives but this is bullshit. If you had slightly less power and were as easy to develop for than my decision would be way easier. I would have bought at the higher price tag if you were on par. One of the exciting things about new consoles is new tech and both went pretty conservative on power but the x1 gpu is a joke. That gpu can't cost them more than 60 dollars and yet the console is 100 dollars more than the competition. I'm okay with kinect but there is not even a single launch game to showcase it at all. I have been an avid Xbox fan since 2003 and then you just decide the tech isn't that important. I didn't care about the always online and all that stuff but I am so upset that they didn't have any interest in competing with Sony on raw power. They had some demographic in mind that doesn't buy 500 dollar consoles in the first place. I don't want to spend more on a console that has NO technological advantages than the conpetition. I hope you read this Larry and relay to the the people who make certain decision how some of your fans are feeling about this.
Click to expand...

Well at least exclusive games will perform well.
 
TheOMan said:
Man - I wish we could get some thread summaries up in here. I hate coming to these threads late. Have Penello or Nelson posted in here yet?

*goes to search*
Click to expand...
It's always the same.

Guy 1: "Xbone sucks"
Guy 2: "Spec gap isn't that big!"
Group 1: "Have you seen *insert PS4 exclusive here*; PS has more flops!; MS has never made a powerful console"
Group 2: "If you guys cared about this spec gap and getting the best visuals, why wouldn't you just buy a PC?"

*cue x pages of bitching*
 
goomba said:
Proof is in the pudding. PS3 was supposed to make 360 look like Xbox 1.5.

We all know how that turned out
Click to expand...

There were other factors, such as the fact that the PS3 was far more complex to develop for and it also came out a year later.

Also, I think the Xbox 1.5 talk was mostly from Sony PR. It seems this time around that Sony PR is being somewhat humble, but we're getting statements from actual developers stating the power difference.
 
Wynnebeck said:
More apt comparison.
Click to expand...

The point is, a PC is not more powerful by default. It CAN be, but not all PC's are the same.

That's why used Volkswagen as analogy, because Volkswagen is not a car, it's a brand. Basically you can't compare a brand (PC) to a specific car (consoles).
 
Horp said:
I think we have some real double standards posters in this thread. I'm talking about some (alot) of the PS4 fans.

1. When there is a discussion on whether certain aspects of quality matter; such as IQ, framerate and resolution:
If it's a XboxOne vs PS4 discussion it's extremely important and a major bonus for the PS4 over the X1.
When the discussion is between PS4 and PC it's all about the gameplay and who cares about some aliasing, upscaled 720p or 30 instead of 60 fps when you are playing a game.

2. When there is a discussion on whether PS4/X1 hardware is much like a PC or very specialized (secret saucy).
If it's a X1 vs PS4 discussion the hardware in both is exactly like PC:s, and therefore can be compared straight up, thus the PS4 wins cause it has more FLOPS.
If it's a PS4 vs PC discussion the GDDR, the hUMA, the superchargyness makes a PS4 way different from a PC and can't possibly be compared with FLOPS.

3. When there is a discussion whether power really matters
X1 vs PS4: of course power matters, it gives developers more possibilities and makes IQ/framerate better.
PS4 vs PC: nah, it's all about the games. Who cares about 1080p@60fps or upcoming 4k resolutions; it's all in the games.

Also; in a thread about comparing the power between 2 gaming machines, isn't it weird that when someone brings up the third real competitor (the PC) when talking about multiplatform games he is answered with "Not this shit again, GTFO"?
Click to expand...

tumblr_lzbbxmrKFe1ql4awto1_500.gif


Please look at the thread title:
"the real difference between PS4 and Xbox One performance"

Where does it say PC? We all know PC will have the superior versions of mulitplatform games. What we want to know is how different the games will be on PS4 and XB1.
 
Horp said:
I think we have some real double standards posters in this thread. I'm talking about some (alot) of the PS4 fans.

1. When there is a discussion on whether certain aspects of quality matter; such as IQ, framerate and resolution:
If it's a XboxOne vs PS4 discussion it's extremely important and a major bonus for the PS4 over the X1.
When the discussion is between PS4 and PC it's all about the gameplay and who cares about some aliasing, upscaled 720p or 30 instead of 60 fps when you are playing a game.

2. When there is a discussion on whether PS4/X1 hardware is much like a PC or very specialized (secret saucy).
If it's a X1 vs PS4 discussion the hardware in both is exactly like PC:s, and therefore can be compared straight up, thus the PS4 wins cause it has more FLOPS.
If it's a PS4 vs PC discussion the GDDR, the hUMA, the superchargyness makes a PS4 way different from a PC and can't possibly be compared with FLOPS.

3. When there is a discussion whether power really matters
X1 vs PS4: of course power matters, it gives developers more possibilities and makes IQ/framerate better.
PS4 vs PC: nah, it's all about the games. Who cares about 1080p@60fps or upcoming 4k resolutions; it's all in the games.

Also; in a thread about comparing the power between 2 gaming machines, isn't it weird that when someone brings up the third real competitor (the PC) when talking about multiplatform games he is answered with "Not this shit again, GTFO"?
Click to expand...
no lies, spot on.
 
Horp said:
But you don't speak for everyone. Are only people with your view of things allowed to post? Rest will be told to GTFO?


But for many people it is a relevant comparison. You might have a good enough cpu, memory, mboard, but you might be thinking about plunking down 400 dollars on a new graphics card. Or a PS4. Or a graphics card... hmmm. How do PC with a 400 dollar graphics card and a PS4 compare? Voila.
Click to expand...

Just create a thread to discuss it with people that are interested in that discussion.
 
Everybody in my life is trying to cut the cable and these guys think we want to control cable boxes via voice control. They are chasing a market that doesn't exist.
 
Proelite said:
IMO, not enough.

There is still room for Esram / Move Engine / Audio / aggregate bw Chip spin.

I am hoping for a 2.0 ghz / 1.0 ghz upclock for PS4. Maybe then we can put this thing to bed and focus on something else.
Click to expand...

Do you think this vgleak is accurate when it says only 14 of the CUs in the PS4 can be used for rendering?

You could be looking at 14 CUs at 800mhz vs 12 at 853mhz for graphics. A big difference?


http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled-2/
 
Horp said:
Also; in a thread about comparing the power between 2 gaming machines, isn't it weird that when someone brings up the third real competitor (the PC) when talking about multiplatform games he is answered with "Not this shit again, GTFO"?
Click to expand...

Because the PC isn't a "real third competitor" at all? Any idiot knows that so I find your bringing the PC into a console discussion rather disingenuous, and that's coming from someone who spends 95% of his gaming time on a PC.

As a PC gamer there really is nothing more annoying than my fellow PC gamers who feel the need to constantly tell everyone how much better the PC is as a gaming platform in console threads. If you are that fucking insecure about your choice of gaming platform you have bigger issues than whether or not you get higher resolution textures or better AA. Everyone gets it, a PC is capable of higher frame rates, better textures, better IQ, etc. but that still doesn't change the fact that many people just want to put a disc in a machine, sit back on the sofa, and play a game. They don't want to deal with windows, viruses, driver updates, incompatibilities, etc. They just want to play games.

Also, if you really want to get technical, the PC isn't a product...it's a line of products made of an infinite number of configurations. There is no single PC, and if going by Steam surveys is any indication, the majority of gaming PCs are garbage and most certainly would not favorably compare to a PS4 or Xbone. So it's pretty damn misleading to talk about how much better "the PC" is compared to a fixed platform that is better than the majority of computers out there. If you really wanted an honest discussion about it, which I doubt, you'd be comparing a $400 PC to the Xbone or PS4, but we all know that a $400 PC isn't going to compare favorably which is why it's always this generic "the PC is better" garbage.

Osiris said:
So, how about showing me a PC I can buy new for £329 (using UK prices) that will provide competitive or better, superior performance to the PS4, fit in an entertainment center under the TV and be as quiet as either the PS4 / Xbox One will be. I'm honestly curious if you could do it.
Click to expand...

You can't. The cheaper you get with PCs the louder, uglier and hotter you get and a $300-400 PC is just a piece of shit.

CassidyIzABeast said:
The lesson we've learned from the last few pages: PC versions don't count in console threads unless they can be used to prove that a game isn't exclusive.
Click to expand...

That's the only time they do count when it comes to consoles. I have a PC, the only consoles games I care about are ones I can't play on any other machine. So exclusivity becomes the determining factor into which console I purchase. If the majority of your best games on a console are also on the PC, I have no reason to purchase your console so bringing the PC up in that context is perfectly valid, unlike the PC master race crap that pops up in console threads.
 
cyberheater said:
Then it makes MS's decision to go down this route even more puzzling. SMH MS.
Click to expand...

exactly. The Xbox one is very useful for navigating live television. "xbox, espn" or "xbox, turn to big bang theory" has benefits.

however

most of their target audience doesn't watch TV this way. it's moving to DVRs and on demand. The xbox can't integrate with these.

it's also likely when they developed this strategy that they anticipated a partnership with US cable companies. That didn't happen, and comcast developed and rolled out a similar platform (the X2) that does not cost $500 and has no competition within their media markets. this is BAD.

As for those who don't watch live TV at all (and this is growing) one doesn't need an xbox to throw hulu, netflix, amazon instant video, etc on the TV. every device under the sun does it by now including apple tv, roku, etc for $100.

If this had come out in 2008, microsoft would be fine. but it's a poor fit for TV viewing habits right now, and 5 years out.
 
randomrosso said:
It's always the same.

Guy 1: "Xbone sucks"
Guy 2: "Spec gap isn't that big!"
Group 1: "Have you seen *insert PS4 exclusive here*; PS has more flops!; MS has never made a powerful console"
Group 2: "If you guys cared about this spec gap and getting the best visuals, why wouldn't you just buy a PC?"

*cue x pages of bitching*
Click to expand...

They still haven't figured out the secret of just buying a console for what you want now and then buying the other one down the line when it then has what you want instead of trying to justify why their console is "Teh bestest" on the internet forum.

They will achieve enlightenment. Eventually.
 
I can barely tell the difference between this gen and PS4 anyway (except for PARTICLES!!!!). As long as they keep the framerate even, the average consumer won't know.
 
Ol No Bones said:
I want the Xbox one so bad because of the exclusives but this is bullshit. If you had slightly less power and were as easy to develop for than my decision would be way easier. I would have bought at the higher price tag if you were on par. One of the exciting things about new consoles is new tech and both went pretty conservative on power but the x1 gpu is a joke. That gpu can't cost them more than 60 dollars and yet the console is 100 dollars more than the competition. I'm okay with kinect but there is not even a single launch game to showcase it at all. I have been all avid Xbox fan since 2003 and then you just decide the tech isn't that important. I didn't care about the always online and all that stuff but I am so upset that they didn't have any interest in competing with Sony on raw power. They had some demographic in mind that doesn't buy 500 dollar consoles in the first place. I don't want to spend more on a console that has NO technological advantages than the conpetition. I hope you read this Larry and relay to the the people who make certain decision how some of your fans are feeling about this.
Click to expand...

I recommend that 1 to 4 exclusives shouldn't make your decision. Sony will always have more exclusives. Dead rising 3 and titan fall are more thanl likely timed exclusives... Is halo, gears, and forza that important to you?
 
szaromir said:
Then you don't want the highest quality experience if you're willing to compromise for whatever reason.

And yes, the user experience on PC is far better than on consoles. Significantly shorter loading times, experience customized to your needs thanks to plethora of options in nearly every aspect.
Click to expand...

I mean, it's totally your prerogative to be obtuse. But I think you're making yourself look a little pig-headed if you can't acknowledge there will always be a compromise.

As for user-experience, it is indeed a mixed bag. The user experience on the 360 and PS3 nowadays is awful.

I am hopeful these new consoles refresh it.
 
Not understanding why PC is bringing brought into this thread?

Has some vocal minority of console gamers started saying consoles are more powerful than PC?

No

So what's the point of the argument?

Clearly the right computer will be more powerful than a PS4 which is more powerful than an XB1 and so on

How about we discuss the 2 console standards instead of trying to compare it to the complete variability that is PC graphics power?
 
Finalizer said:
That's the thing though - there's folks on this forum, some in this very thread, that have contested otherwise. We've got official MS reps saying that there isn't a gap - or at least not as wide of one as we think? - for one reason or another. Normally, yeah, you'd say a PC with a 7850 is more powerful than one with a 7770, but the matter is that point is being disputed, hence we have these threads that focus on the power disparity.

And then there's still the angle of how that power disparity will actually be leveraged by multi-plat developers on the consoles - will they work with the lowest common denominator in mind and just throw whatever they come up with on other systems with minimal additional effort? Will they actually try to get as much out of each system as possible? There's still a lot of debate on that front, particularly because it's not nearly as clear-cut as the horsepower difference.

So there's still plenty to the basic conversation of what will come of games between the Xbone and the PS4. Thing is, the conversation makes some folks uncomfortable. When I see the conversation starting to get directed toward PS4 vs PC, I see certain names pop up time and time again. I remember TheKayle's common retreats in threads past. I know the end goal - to get people to stop talking about the Xbone's power and move it to a place where the PS4 gets downplayed by a comparison that will leave it slapped around silly. The ultimate result is a discussion derailment to one with a foregone conclusion.

On top of that, you've got some guys who just genuinely enjoy poo-pooing on the entire debate to feel good about themselves. Stroking the ego and all that.

Now I'm not saying any of those are your end goals, but I've seen these things happen consistently enough in the past to see what's coming ahead of time. And that's what makes the whole situation irritating to watch unfold.
Click to expand...

Good post. These kinds of threads are irritating, for me at least, because pretty much the same thing is being said over and over again by both sides. I am an Xbox guy, always have been, always will be. I've played plenty on both PC and PlayStation consoles and have enjoyed my time on those platforms as well but on a whole I am still an Xbox gamer (aside from TF2 on PC from time to time. Saxton Hale and all that). I have no delusions as to the fact that the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One. It is and no amount of technical wizardry on Microsoft's part will change that. I understand that, I accept that. At this point though, I would like to get an idea as to how Microsoft plans to make games on their new console look and function. That's been hard to do lately because of drive-by trolls and Microsoft shooting themselves in the foot with all of their PR. At this point, I am praying that there will be a time when all of this anger and frustration (which is completely justified) that has permeated these threads will subside to a point that we will be able to have calm and productive discussions that have anything to do with this console. I am not naïve in believing that everyone will suddenly have happy thoughts about the Xbox One come November but I really, really hope that there will time when people on both sides will be able to nicely and intelligently discuss the most important aspect of these consoles, the games. Anyways, that's just my two cents. I really enjoyed your post and....I don't know....just felt the urge to respond to it. GG Finalizer. Keep on keeping on.
 
Manmademan said:
The xbox can't integrate with these.
Click to expand...

Do we know that? Is it impossible that the Xbone could have functions where you'd say, 'Xbox, switch to 30 Rock', and it would ask you whether you want to watch the episode that's currently on cable TV or an episode from Netflix?

This doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility for me if MS provide the API hooks.
Finalizer said:
That's the thing though - there's folks on this forum, some in this very thread, that have contested otherwise. We've got official MS reps saying that there isn't a gap - or at least not as wide of one as we think? - for one reason or another. Normally, yeah, you'd say a PC with a 7850 is more powerful than one with a 7770, but the matter is that point is being disputed, hence we have these threads that focus on the power disparity.
Click to expand...

Besides the Xbox weirdos like TheKayle, the shills, and the official shills like Penello, who still maintains that the Xbone is as powerful? There are people who think the difference will be more or less negligible, that's a different matter. Sorry but this really just reads like a similar 'people are doing this...' kind of generalisation that people keep calling out as 'confirmation bias'. I don't see very many people who genuinely think the Xbone is as powerful, myself.
 
Horp said:
The topic is the comparison between two gaming machines with regards to power. Saying that adding another gaming machine to that comparison "has absolutely nothing to do with the topic" is just absurd.
Click to expand...

It's not about any "gaming machine" the thread is about consoles.

Maybe we should add the Ouya or the Vita/3DS to the discussion since they are gaming machines as well.

Hell let's thrown in the iPhone/iPad and Android cellphones and tablets too.

What a silly argument you have there.
 
Odrion said:
Y'know, Microsoft can try to claim an advantage with weird ESRAM functionality or slight hardware upclocking. They can try to blur the lines with PR speak/lies.

But at the end of the day, their games just don't look as good. Everything they have using the Xbone as the proprietary hardware just pales in comparison to everything Sony has shown. And it's not like the devs using the Xbone are a bunch of slackers - They have the fucking Forza team and Crytek using the hardware. CRYTEK. CRYSIS 3 CRYTEK.

Have you seen the new Driveclub footage? Holy SHIT.
Click to expand...
Forza still looks better. And Ryse looks as good as anything I've seen on the PS4.
 
godelsmetric said:
Do we know that? Is it impossible that the Xbone could have functions where you'd say, 'Xbox, switch to 30 Rock', and it would ask you whether you want to watch the episode that's currently on cable TV or an episode from Netflix?

This doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility for me if MS provide the API hooks.
Click to expand...

Microsoft hasn't mentioned any ability to integrate with DVRs in any of the press material, and a large part of how it intends to interface with cable boxes is via IR blaster, which isn't complex enough to allow it. (edit: note that netflix is not a DVR. netflix is a different issue, and microsoft certainly could integrate netflix if the app was customized in theory).

DVR navigation and integration is a HUGE stumbling block for everyone that's tried it- in no small part because each cable and satellite operator as well as Tivo are using distinct, proprietary software, and MS does not have agreements in place with anyone except Time warner.
 
Manmademan said:
exactly. The Xbox one is very useful for navigating live television. "xbox, espn" or "xbox, turn to big bang theory" has benefits.

however

most of their target audience doesn't watch TV this way. it's moving to DVRs and on demand. The xbox can't integrate with these.

it's also likely when they developed this strategy that they anticipated a partnership with US cable companies. That didn't happen, and comcast developed and rolled out a similar platform (the X2) that does not cost $500 and has no competition within their media markets. this is BAD.

As for those who don't watch live TV at all (and this is growing) one doesn't need an xbox to throw hulu, netflix, amazon instant video, etc on the TV. every device under the sun does it by now including apple tv, roku, etc for $100.

If this had come out in 2008, microsoft would be fine. but it's a poor fit for TV viewing habits right now, and 5 years out.
Click to expand...
You're making it sound like the console can't evolve and change with the market climate. The 360 (and PS3's) we have today are very different from what we had at launch in terms of feature sets and focus.
 
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