Support NeoGAF

[TalonsOfJustice]

I understand that the game industry and the people who work it make money, but when it comes down to a great developer complaining about not making money, yet he is making money, is pretty sad. At least complain about how the industry is shitting itself in terms of games, how almost 75% of everything I see now is a sequel to a game that started 20 years ago or remakes of games that shouldn't be remade.

 

[Willeth]

This whole issue actually makes me a little worried that God of War 3 will have some radical way of tackling this tacked onto it.

 

[Ardorx]

I really hope we never hit a DD only model. There are three console makers right now(maybe more in the future), what happens if one of them goes under and Ive bought games on their system?

I pretty much lose the rights to those games should anything happen to my system. At least with actual disks I could sell them to people that want them then use the profits to replace the game on another system.

 

[Spruchy]

Les: For the record, I have a micropenis but that in no way affects my ability to have sex.

 

[Pureauthor]

Retailers already get a share on the sale of a new game. And then they can do a shitload of money on selling a used copy. I'm pretty sure overall, they can easily make more money off a copy of a game than the developpers themselves. And that only cost them some shelf space. You can easily see why this only can upset devs/pubs.

In the case of other goods, the majority of the sales do not involve a third party. Not to mention that in the case of videogames the used copy will stand next to the new one. You don't exactly see that with other goods. For cars, the only case when it happens is with licensed retailers, who either are owned by the manufacturer, or pay a license. In both cases the manufacturer gets money on used sales.

Then you have the time factor. VG are extremely short lived products, so the used market is more likely to have a huge impact on it. That's not the case with goods such as cars or houses.

Competition. For many reasons, a 15yo house or a 5yo car are not likely to directly compete with their "new" counterparts. First because in most cases they're different, and second because this kind of used goods come with potential problems and shortcomings. Except if the disc is scratched to death and the box is ruined, there is absolutely no advantage in buying new vs used for videogames.

Etc.

I'm not sure Jaffe wants to completely ban the used market, just that he thinks the way it works right now is totally unfair to the devs/pubs who spent a shitload of time to create a product, and retailers are making easy money out of it. And I think he's right.

Put bluntly, as a consumer I see nothing wrong with any of this. Stuff like the Videogames being short-lived products are on the onus of the developer to fix if they want different results. Also I think the competition analogy is a bit flawed. If there's nothing wrong with buying 15 yr old videogames compared to new ones, then this industry is more or less stagnant and needs a sea change. Not that that's what I think you were going for, but your early example ends up muddling things.

 

[Grecco]

I really hope we never hit a DD only model. There are three console makers right now(maybe more in the future), what happens if one of them goes under and Ive bought games on their system?

I pretty much lose the rights to those games should anything happen to my system. At least with actual disks I could sell them to people that want them then use the profits to replace the game on another system.

We never will go to a DD only model.

 

[Starchasing]

Put bluntly, as a consumer I see nothing wrong with any of this. Stuff like the Videogames being short-lived products are on the onus of the developer to fix if they want different results. Also I think the competition analogy is a bit flawed. If there's nothing wrong with buying 15 yr old videogames compared to new ones, then this industry is more or less stagnant and needs a sea change. Not that that's what I think you were going for, but your early example ends up muddling things.

just go to your closest gamestop ... and count the number of

wii sports

gears of war 2

at least where i live its about 0 to 20

 

[Raist]

I totally agree.

I think rather than trying to tell retailers to f*ck off, game developers should concentrate on making people A) preorder/buy new games by giving bonuses B) make them keep the game with DLC.

And when they do that, GAF screams and tell them to GTFO :lol

 

[Haint]

I look forward to paying $400 for a sub-$300 piece of gimp ass hardware just so Best Buy can pocket the 100+ bucks that'll make it "worth their effort to stock it". DDFUTUREFTW!!! This is probably the biggest fail-acy of DD that almost never gets brought up. We're going to be paying $400 for Wii-equivalents (or worse) in a generation or two. I hope PSPGo fails so miserably nobody wants to try that shit again for 20 years.

 

[Tonza]

And when they do that, GAF screams and tell them to GTFO :lol

Yeah, GAF can be pretty weird at times. I have no problems with preorder incentives.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

And when they do that, GAF screams and tell them to GTFO :lol

Which just goes to show you that they're doing it wrong.

The difference between good DLC and bad DLC is that good DLC adds additional value to a game for a price while bad DLC sells you back pieces of the game they withheld in order to make $70 off a $50 game.

 

[Raist]

Also I think the competition analogy is a bit flawed. If there's nothing wrong with buying 15 yr old videogames compared to new ones, then this industry is more or less stagnant and needs a sea change. Not that that's what I think you were going for, but your early example ends up muddling things.

Huh? I'm just saying that used copies directly compete with new copies. The typical used car or house is years old. So it's totally different.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

DLC is a terrible way to incentivize keeping a game. I own DLC for plenty of games I no longer own. I can think of almost no DLC that actually adds to the "I should keep this" metric running around in people's brains. There's hardly anything comparable to the TF2 game updates in the land of DLC. Paying $5 for another mission pack or something just adjusts the value proposition of selling the game, it doesn't make a person not want to.

Exclusive DLC is a decent pre-order incentive, but that doesn't really affect the desire to not sell the game.

 

[Megadragon15]

I do think that if publishers get their way and we have a DD model only, they well enforce their license "rights" even more and do stuff like limit download and installs to one time, revoke licenses and render games unplayable once the publishers decide they no longer want to support it, keep high prices, and continue offering paid DLC in the form of unlock codes.

 

[Pureauthor]

Which just goes to show you that they're doing it wrong.

The difference between good DLC and bad DLC is that good DLC adds additional value to a game for a price while bad DLC sells you back pieces of the game they withheld in order to make $70 off a $50 game.

Did people whine about Lost and the Damned? I don't remember, but I wasn't paying much attention.

 

[Raist]

Which just goes to show you that they're doing it wrong.

The difference between good DLC and bad DLC is that good DLC adds additional value to a game for a price while bad DLC sells you back pieces of the game they withheld in order to make $70 off a $50 game.

Sorry I was mostly refering to the preorder bits.

 

[Xater]

Yeah, GAF can be pretty weird at times. I have no problems with preorder incentives.

They are the worst thing ever. They are A) at shops where the game is more expensive or B) not available internationaly.

 

[JSnake]

You know JSnake, you may have tarnished your reputation and invalidated your opinions and verdicts, but you're right.

That mans head looks just like a fucking egg.

I don't think a single thread on an internet forum can do that but OK.

 

[StoOgE]

I look forward to paying $400 for a sub-$300 piece of gimp ass hardware just so Best Buy can pocket the 100+ bucks that'll make it "worth their effort to stock it". DDFUTUREFTW!!! This is probably the biggest fail-acy of DD that almost never gets brought up. We're going to be paying $400 for Wii-equivalents (or worse) in a generation or two. I hope PSPGo fails so miserably nobody wants to try that shit again for 20 years.

pretty much.. because Best Buy isn't going to want to stock hardware only if there is no profit in it for them.. because right now hardware has a markup of less than 1% for the retailer.. they only sell it so they can sell accessories and games. Once that goes DD they are not going to want to stock such a low-margin item.

For fun:

Lets say Sony goes DD only, MS and Ninty keep the hybrid model they have now.

J6P walks into Best Buy and sees a PS4 and no games. And then sees giant aisles filled with Xbox 720 games and Wii-HD games. Which console do you think he is going to wind up buying?

DD might be good for publishers, but it's bad for the console manufacturers in this way.. which is why MS, Sony, Nintendo are all pushing for a hybrid model. They realize the profit to be made with DD but they also realize their retail parnters are the gateway to consumers.

 

[Gravijah]

I don't think a single thread on an internet forum can do that but OK.

You'd be surprised.

 

[StoOgE]

DLC is a terrible way to incentivize keeping a game. I own DLC for plenty of games I no longer own. I can think of almost no DLC that actually adds to the "I should keep this" metric running around in people's brains. There's hardly anything comparable to the TF2 game updates in the land of DLC. Paying $5 for another mission pack or something just adjusts the value proposition of selling the game, it doesn't make a person not want to.

Exclusive DLC is a decent pre-order incentive, but that doesn't really affect the desire to not sell the game.

I'm not saying DLC as it is currently used in consoles is a good incentive. TF2 is a great example of what game makers *should* be doing if they really want to combat used game sales.

Give gamers quality, FREE, game updates on a semi-regular basis.

If you don't want to give us a good incentive to hang on to your games longer than fuck off and stop bitching when we sell them.

 

[Clear]

Jaffe is the man.
As somebody who's been in development for a long time I find it immensely heartening that despite his profile, he's got the balls to tell it like it is - especially knowing that its not going to fly well with a lot of folks.

 

[Gravijah]

I'm not saying DLC as it is currently used in consoles is a good incentive. TF2 is a great example of what game makers *should* be doing if they really want to combat used game sales.

Give gamers quality, FREE, game updates on a semi-regular basis.

If you don't want to give us a good incentive to hang on to your games longer than fuck off and stop bitching when we sell them.

They don't just want customers to keep the game longer, they want people that buy USED to pay for the DLC so they profit off of them too.

 

[Darklord]

I remember a report in a games magazine about 5-6 months ago. It checked out every single large game only stores to find out about used games. Every single one claimed they'd be out of business if they got rid of used games and they make 70% of their profits off it. So they will NEVER willingly get rid of them. or want to lose that profit.

It's up to the developers. Not by going "Give us money or else!" but by making people WANT to keep there games. I've kept GTA4 and Fallout 3 because of the DLC. Same with Burnout, same with Dawn of War 2. These days a game really can't be a basic 6-8 hours, single player only type of affair because they AREN'T worth $60(or $100 here).

A game either needs a good lengthy single player, great multiplayer, high level of replayability or some nice looking DLC coming out for it(and not just a new map or two). Hell, even try what Gears 2 did and add a download code for some extra maps that you won't be able to get in a used copy. If developers can't do that, then expect people to trade in your games or just rent them.

Also, it always seems this is basically how a Jaffe conversion goes.
Jaffe: I think blah blah blah
Other: I disagree because of X
Jaffe: You're wrong because of Y
Other: I still disagree.
Jaffe: Well when you grow some balls you might understand dickweed
Other: Whatever, I still disagree because of Z
Jaffe: You're a mistake, not about your option but the fact you were born. My rubber broke while I fucked you mum.
Other: Fuck you. You're opinion is stupid and you don't seem to understand mine.
Jaffe: Grow up cactus dick, I'm right, you're wrong. End of discussion.

:\

 

[Tonza]

They are the worst thing ever. They are A) at shops where the game is more expensive or B) not available internationaly.

Yeah I was going to add that when they aren't retailer specific. (which they are because of the big retailers pressure)
Also atleast so far they aren't something really meaningful to the game itself.

 

[Davidion]

And when they do that, GAF screams and tell them to GTFO :lol

You mean the poorly done DLC that are more worth discussing for the fact that they're microtransactions rather than actual content bonuses, and the pre-orders that are store and time constrained and actually serve to marginalize consumers who don't necessarily have access to that store?

Yes, GAF screams and tell them to GTFO, because they're usually stupid and offers little to nothing for the actual consumer.


Over and over again, these people who complain that retailers like GS is eating their cake demonstrates that they've no idea how to actually retain customers from a marketing perspective. The very notion of "threatening" B&M retail with digital distribution is the most asinine thing I've heard about the retail business in ages. Sheer fucking stupidity, is what it is.

 

[faust666]

So all you car analogy defenders would be happy to drive your new $30k car for a week and turn around and sell it back to your dealer for $20k, only to have them resell it $27.5k to the next customer? And do that several times a year?

 

[StoOgE]

They don't just want customers to keep the game longer, they want people that buy USED to pay for the DLC so they profit off of them too.

Then they should stop bitching.

Developers (with some exceptions) aren't doing anything to try and make a game a good value to keep long-term. They are trying to bilk consumers of their money with shitty DLC (with a few exceptions).

I don't have any problem with developers doing either of those things.. but they shouldn't act shocked when gamers don't want to put up with it and sell their games.

 

[Noshino]

You can recover quite a bit if you know where to look. Or you could just dump 'em off at the nearest GameStop if it's convenience you're after.

Well, Segata says he can recover about 50%, there are games with discounted prices online already.

Also why on earth should Gamestop not use the right of resale for their own good? As an organization, they exist to make profits, and as much as possible. That's what a business does.

You guys are championing what is "right" for the customer, but GameStop, the company profiting the most of the second hand market, is not doing what is "right".

This is an era where video game companies have been screwing the consumers over with frivolous DLC that does nothing but unlock content already on the disc, also an era where they screwed the pooch on their own financials so badly that most of the western game devs are losing money despite jacking the price up ten dollars from the previous generation. I'm supposed to believe that bunch of clowns are going to do what's best for the consumer?

You don't believe studios/developers that have said that it is the retail that is holding them back but you do believe the second hand market, with GameStop at the top, making people believe that they are actually getting a good deal for reselling their games? Oh man....

 

[Jet Grind Radio!]

I'm not saying DLC as it is currently used in consoles is a good incentive. TF2 is a great example of what game makers *should* be doing if they really want to combat used game sales.

Give gamers quality, FREE, game updates on a semi-regular basis.

If you don't want to give us a good incentive to hang on to your games longer than fuck off and stop bitching when we sell them.

Free won't necessarily be better here. If it's free, it's possible for people to sell it anyway since they didn't invest in it. However, gameplay additions like the TF2 one is a good example of DLC that adds to the multiplayer component.

 

[Davidion]

So all you car analogy defenders would be happy to drive your new $30k car for a week and turn around and sell it back to your dealer for $20k, only to have them resell it $27.5k to the next customer? And do that several times a year?

Gee, I wonder why people don't do that. Might have something to do with the product actually has some lingering value to the person who buys it after a few hours of use. Imagine that.

 

[Gravijah]

So all you car analogy defenders would be happy to drive your new $30k car for a week and turn around and sell it back to your dealer for $20k, only to have them resell it $27.5k to the next customer? And do that several times a year?

People sure love leasing. But I guess that's more similar to renting, a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

[StoOgE]

So all you car analogy defenders would be happy to drive your new $30k car for a week and turn around and sell it back to your dealer for $20k, only to have them resell it $27.5k to the next customer? And do that several times a year?

I personally wouldn't do that.

But a consumer has the right to do it if they want to, and if GM bitched about it I would call them stupid..

Because while they might not see any money from that used car sale/purchase.. they are seeing money from the idiot who buys a new car every 6 months as a result of being able to sell his used car.

Also, it turns out people don't do that because after 2 weeks they aren't completely bored of the car and have no use of it. I've been burned on many games that are worth exactly 1 play through that takes all of 8 hours to beat.

 

[Pureauthor]

Well, Segata says he can recover about 50%, there are games with discounted prices online already.



You guys are championing what is "right" for the customer, but GameStop, the company profiting the most of the second hand market, is not doing what is "right".

They are offering me a price for the game if I resell it to them. If I think it is a good deal, then I will sell it to them. If I do not, then I will not, and keep the game or sell it somewhere else where I can get a better return.

That is rather different from developers/publishers attempting to shut down or alter the resale market. One has me reaping what I sow, the other does not.

You don't believe studios/developers that have said that it is the retail that is holding them back but you do believe the second hand market, with GameStop at the top, making people believe that they are actually getting a good deal for reselling their games? Oh man....

Have Gamestop ever come out claiming that their deals are, in fact, 'good'? I think I'd have remembered if they did that, considering that the internet would have exploded with rage if that happened.

No, I don't particularly care for Gamestop's resale policies. But apparently a lot of people do, given their profit margin. That's their decision, and as a consumer I'd rather the choice be open to me.

(Not that I actually deal with Gamestop, considering I live nowhere near their retail outlets.)

 

[Son of Godzilla]

So all you car analogy defenders would be happy to drive your new $30k car for a week and turn around and sell it back to your dealer for $20k, only to have them resell it $27.5k to the next customer? And do that several times a year?

Just because the analogy works doesn't mean the specifics are the same.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Well, Segata says he can recover about 50%, there are games with discounted prices online already.



You guys are championing what is "right" for the customer, but GameStop, the company profiting the most of the second hand market, is not doing what is "right".




You don't believe studios/developers that have said that it is the retail that is holding them back but you do believe the second hand market, with GameStop at the top, making people believe that they are actually getting a good deal for reselling their games? Oh man....

I don't believe Gamestop is looking out for the customer any more than the game companies are, but it just happens to be that on this particular issue, we have a common interest.

Gamestop can go die in a fire for all I care, but the way the industry is choosing to go about achieving that end is also going to affect me, and quite heavily at that.

 

[StoOgE]

You guys are championing what is "right" for the customer, but GameStop, the company profiting the most of the second hand market, is not doing what is "right".

It's called a secondary market. It is completely "right" and is part of the basis of capitalism.

Fun fact: Companies make money off initial stock offerings.
Fun fact 2: Companies don't make money when someone buys and sells their stock on the market.
Fun fact 3: I don't hear google bitching that they should get a 1% cut off of every stock sale in the market.

 

[Raist]

I'm not saying DLC as it is currently used in consoles is a good incentive. TF2 is a great example of what game makers *should* be doing if they really want to combat used game sales.

Give gamers quality, FREE, game updates on a semi-regular basis.

If you don't want to give us a good incentive to hang on to your games longer than fuck off and stop bitching when we sell them.

Huh... so in order to lose less money, they should work on free updates. Makes sense.

I think the main issue here is the consumer's behaviour, and I think that's why many people still regard videogames as an "immature" media.
Think of it, do you see many people enjoying a good movie/CD/book and then selling it after they've watched/listened to/read it once? Not really. While for videogames, that's pretty much common.

That may be the most disheartening thing for a developper. I mean, it takes as long to make a game as to write a book or record an album (and it's certainly much more expensive), and yet games have this kind of "kleenex" status, with people asking for more, and for free. I've never seen someone say "hey, give me another chapter/track/scene for free, or else there's no reason why I should not sell your stuff.

 

[StoOgE]

I don't believe Gamestop is looking out for the customer any more than the game companies are, but it just happens to be that on this particular issue, we have a common interest.

Exactly. Gamestop isn't doing this to help consumers.. they are doing it to turn a profit and have every right to do so.

It just so happens that they are helping facilitate a second hand market to make it easier for consumers to sell or buy used products.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

So how many people here sell old games off to buy new ones? :lol

I sell old games to buy old ones actually.
Here I made a list of games I'm going to buy new for the rest of this year:

Raiden IV
Way of the Samurai 3
Demon's Souls

With any luck:
ESP Galuda 2
Mushihime Futari
similar titles

Then again I am one of those "fuck the industry" types so whatevs.

Oh and I have spent quite a few dollars on DD-only games but those are either ports/remakes I'm familiar with, a particular genre I enjoy(2D shooters), or have had exceptionally good word of mouth/reviews.

 

[K' Dash]

?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Huh... so in order to lose less money, they should work on free updates. Makes sense.

I think the main issue here is the consumer's behaviour, and I think that's why many people still regard videogames as an "immature" media.
Think of it, do you see many people enjoying a good movie/CD/book and then selling it after they've watched/listened to/read it once? Not really. While for videogames, that's pretty much common.

That may be the most disheartening thing for a developper. I mean, it takes as long to make a game as to write a book or record an album, and yet games have this kind of "kleenex" status, with people asking for more, and for free. I've never seen someone say "hey, give me another chapter/track/scene for free, or else there's no reason why I should not sell your stuff.

Uh, people do that with books all the time. And in a fashion, movies are also treated as "kleenex" thanks to a very robust rental market (note that game rentals would also be eliminated by DD-only).

If the companies want people to keep things, make them worth keeping. I don't see a ton of Nintendo's games sitting on used shelves... I wonder why that is?

 

[itxaka]

:lol :lol that conversation is pretty stupid on boths parts.

The guy was writing like an offended 17-year-old and jaffe...well he is the "I am the fucking-jaffe, fuck you sir" so expected.


And I don't think they can pulla mafia on retailers. They will just told them to fuck off. They can always even stop selling new games and become a second hand only shop rigth? Didn't they announce that second-hand was like a 70% of their benefits?

 

[Zenith]

Going to have to side with the blogger on this one.

Jaffe kept saying retailers should cut him in on used game sales but the only reason he gave was "it's darn rude", which is essentially entitlement.

and it was definitely him whose language and attitude came off as assholish. that's Jaffe's whole scthick.

the arguments that second tweeter gave were completely pathetic and centred around deflection rather than giving any concrete points. Who was that Clarke douche?

 

[StoOgE]

Huh... so in order to lose less money, they should work on free updates. Makes sense..

Look, if it doesn't make financial sense to keep gamers playing your 2-3 month old game (or older) than don't do it. But don't complain when gamers see more value in selling your game than keeping it.

You can't expect consumers to hold on to something that they don't see any value in anymore. So either provide that value somehow or stop bitching.

I think Crackdown is a good example of doing it right.

1) Buy it on Day 1 you get a Halo 3 demo.
2) Lots of replay value/shit to go look for.
3) Fun pick up and play game for 10-15 minutes even months after release.
4) 3 months after release we got a free DLC upgrade that let us reset the city/do some cool shit.
5) Same day we got a pay DLC that added a ton of cool new features that got me playing online again for months.

 

[Gestahl]

Jaffe's always been a huge asshole (remember the reporter thread IS THIS GUY BIASED OH MY) and this pretty much just reinforces that. If I hadn't gotten the God of War greatest hits versions I probably would've bought them used. But I guess since I waited for the greatest hits versions I've probably committed a cardinal sin either way. I sold my PS3 at any rate (how dare I, and without forking any money over to Sony either) and I have no desire to play another God of War so bleh.

Still nice to see there are a few sycophantic fools left here still willing to suck his taint dry though.

 

[Scythesurge]

Yeah, GAF can be pretty weird at times. I have no problems with preorder incentives.

The only time I have a problem with preorder incentives is when I go to pick up the game and the preorder incentive is conveniently out of stock. This happened to me at Gamecrazy for Littlebigplanet and just yesterday at Gamestop for the Metroid Prime Trilogy t-shirt.

 

[Starchasing]

Devs should stop bithcing and start working on something that people are willing to keep

 

[Onemic]

So since when was GAF completely on the side of Gamestops used games practice?

 

[Jet Grind Radio!]

I think it's more standing up for used game sales.