OK good to know. Thank you. Think I'm gonna pick one up.
Engadget: We hate Valve's Steam Controller because it's different
- Thread starter Crayon
- Start date
OK good to know. Thank you. Think I'm gonna pick one up.
I had to get a steam controller to test my own indie game with it, but yeah, I really don't like it. I tested it with some other types of games and I find the touch pad stuff to be unsuitable for just about anything. On top of that, the "digital pad" is horrible and the face buttons are both too small and too squishy feeling.
Crayon
Member
I think if more people had that attitude, the reception would be less negative. I've had a few people as me if they should get it and I have to first ask them if they have any actual need for it. Me for instance, I'm right in the intended couch gamer audience and having a kb.m on the couch is a minor fuss. As is switching between dual shock and kb/m on a per-game basis. So the steam controller is a tidy solution for 50 dollars. But if you are perfectly happy with a kb/m, particularly at a desk where you need nothing else, then the controller isn't even made for you. Valve has nothing to gain from switching people off kb/m. It should totally coexist with fight sticks, gamepads, etc.
Wow, that's.....pretty much spot-on.
If you're going to reinvent the wheel, you need a game that's tailor-made for the experience to demonstrate how much better your idea is versus what has come before. ....Nintendo figured this out a long time ago; its partly why we love Mario games - they are the built to be the best example possible of a new console, new gameplay style (S.M.64), and/or new type of controller.
You have succinctly said in two sentences all that needs to be said.
I think the issue is that a lot of people play just for "fun". As such, the Steam controller has to overcome not just the viability of being a better controller, but also the invested theoretical time that the person is struggling to learn it (in comparison to using what the user already knows).
This is not a problem standard controllers have that ship with consoles: the user doesn't have any other choice. To play those games on offer, they have to adapt to the new user interface.
Valve has to sell its controller as being worth the hurdle. And if you are already having fun on your dual analogs or kb&m, it doesn't make a lot of sense to put in time not having fun for the potential of having the same fun later (if you are content with analogs). If you are the type of user who gleans more fun out of being more competitive, you're going to stick with a kb&m. So the controller sits in a weird state of being for people who like to try new control methods. Of which there are many, but I would imagine there are more that prefer to use tried-and-true (to them) control methods. The Steam controller doesn't offer up new game types, just a new way to play old game types.
I don't think that contradicts the post you responded to. The Steam controller is meant to bridge the gap between couch and comfortable m&k play. It is a great solution for compressing complex control schemes into a convenient little package. It was never meant to offer new game types.
If you are a person who wants to play m&k-controlled games on your TV, without the hassle of setting up and handling your mouse and keyboard, the Steam controller is for you. If you are the type of person who wants more accurate input than what can be offered by a traditional gamepad, or you want the ability to configure personalized control schemes for any game, the Steam controller is for you. If you are the type of person who is afraid of menus, who runs away when asked to fix minor temporary problems, or who cannot spend two minutes tinkering to arrive at a comfortable play style, the Steam controller is not for you. If, like Crayon said, you are already comfortable using a mouse and keyboard in whatever configuration you are used to, the Steam controller is probably not for you. It does not solve a problem for people who are gaming at desks. It does not solve a problem for couch-bound people who do not play games which require a mouse and keyboard. But for the population it caters to, it could not be much better.
The reality is, people that are PC gamers already have already got solutions that don't involve crippling their M+K setups for games that that's the preferred control setup with. I have no need to go play on my couch just to have workable M+K on a controller, and the games that work well with a controller we're just going to use what we already have.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I also wasn't necessarily disagreeing with that post.
I don't see a lot of hate for the Steam controller, I see a lot of indifference. A lot of "who is this for?" which is basically a poster ineloquently stating "I don't understand why I would/should want this." The controller does exactly what it says on the box, acts as a mouse and keyboard setup in a controller. But there is a learning curve. And you'll probably not like it at first. But then you (might) like it a lot. But that gap in between, when you are sitting down for your fun time, you will have to sacrifice for a doubtful future.
That's what I'm saying. It's a tough sell because the user has to (HAS TO) invest time that they won't be enjoying as much as they would otherwise to get to some unknown conclusion. Or, they can just keep using what they're using.
That's kind of the boat I'm in. I want a Steam controller, but I have no idea what the hell I'd use it for. I guess if I had a computer hooked up to a big TV that I wanted to play m&kb games on, I might, but usually those would be with interfaces I wouldn't want to be sitting 8-10 feet from.
Both found success in finding new markets with they often hated casuals and non-gamers or younger audiences. So they kinda support the argument in the OP here. They gaming community though? Hated it. At least the Wii controller. You just need to look at the thread when the Wii controller was revealed.
Another example is the PS3 boomerang controller, which the gaming community also rejected without ever laying a finger on it. And that was just a different form.
And now we are stuck with the same Xbox and Playstation designs till the end of time. No risk taking allowed. Even things like grip/paddles are doomed to be experiments on 150$ hardware.
I think ppl are forgetting this. And why I want one.
This controller plus Steam machines..its also to try to get rid of the comfy couch holdouts for PC gaming. I admit I'm one. I already knew how to do comfy couch ways but these 2 things are supposed to make it alot easier for folks that dont.
Nintendo released a great controller, it's called the WiiU gamepad and everyone loves it because of how new and different it is.
They also had a wiimote for kiddy babies who waggle because they dont play mature games for mature gamers such as myself.
also i heard they put a gimmicky touchscreen thing into their gameboys, it's resistive- yuck!!1
the ds4 and xbone controllers are AMAZING its like my first love, but I had to pay for it again and it makes my stockholm calm down.
They also had a wiimote for kiddy babies who waggle because they dont play mature games for mature gamers such as myself.
also i heard they put a gimmicky touchscreen thing into their gameboys, it's resistive- yuck!!1
the ds4 and xbone controllers are AMAZING its like my first love, but I had to pay for it again and it makes my stockholm calm down.
There are a lot of people who seem to be dismissing the controller as a flop who haven't tried it, or have tried it only briefly. Tbf, I don't think its features have been well communicated. Many tweaks have been made since the early release, to the point where it feels almost like a second generation product compared to its state a month ago. It is a great device and is in no way less useful that a gamepad (the "jack of all trades" quip is trite and unsubstantiated, the steam controller works just as well as or better than a gamepad in nearly any situation). But you are right, it is different, and it takes time to adjust to using it. I think a large source of the ambivalence toward it is an overestimation of how much time that adjustment takes.
I think what would make the controller better is if they changed the left pad to basically be a genesis d-pad that's touch sensitive. That might stop it from having haptic feedback but I don't think it would be a great loss. A decent d-pad that you can map WASD to would make the controller much more palatable for a WASD + Mouse setup.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
This is kind of my position as well. I was hyped for the controller.
Then I found a $15 adapter on Amazon that lets me use a Wii U Pro Controller and I see no reason to drop $50 on a Steam Controller.
King Tubby
Member
I'm really intrigued by the Steam controller, I love couch gaming and mostly game on PC, and I play a lot of KB+M genres like strategy, but from everything I've read about it, it feels like the best option is to let the early adopters sort the kinks out and set all the bindings and the like and I'll dip my toe into it when it seems worth the trouble.
infinit777
Member
I don't like it, not because change but because it doesn't feel good or work well at what it is supposed to do. I had messed with the settings and tried all the modes but nothing felt or worked well.
Im done trying new controllers as this felt like more of a gimmicks than an innovation for me.
/end rant
Im done trying new controllers as this felt like more of a gimmicks than an innovation for me.
/end rant
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
When Nintendo introduced the analog stick as means to control Super Mario 64, did you see such a wide-spread ciritcism of it? A control mechanism must be intuitive, the Steam controller seems not to be intuitive. And if it does have advantages that are easily exploited, Valve should have launched the controller together with a game that perfectly demonstrates it, instead of throwing the thing on the market with a lot of cusomization options (which, imo, are a signe they themselves are not even sure how the thing should best be used). Either the controller is at fault, or Valve is a t fault for it not getting favourable reviews. That a gadget-loving website doesn't like that does not change it.
Pretty much my feeling. I don't need an innovation in controllers because I don't have any complaints with traditional analog sticks. On the computer, I mainly play with mouse/keyboard anyway and have zero desire to move away from that setup.
Green Yoshi
Member
Bundle the controller with Half-Life 3 and everybody will buy it. ;-)
First post wins.
There are a lot of players out there that aren't comfortable. However, mass market familiarity shouts down change.
There's no reason so many players should be using claw grip in 2015. That's a fault with the controller.
Thankfully VR is going to force the issue.
All three of your examples were rebuked by "hardcore" gamers. Their popularity is almost in spite of the "hardcore" gamer. All three were snickered at as being pure gimmicks that wouldn't possibly sell, especially in comparison to the more traditional competition.
Mineshaft_Gap
4077th
I see controllers and kbm as existing in separate universes. As far as I'm concerned, there are entire genres that are only playable with one or the other. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
I would love to be proven wrong.
I would love to be proven wrong.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Pretty much this.
People are entitled to their opinions, but this article is just trying to tell those people that they're wrong.
And that's the gap the Steam controller is meant to bridge. It's not a perfect replacement for either, and I don't think Valve believed it could be one.
ElTorro's example of using it to play Witcher 1 is why it exists, at least for the moment.
Kwansu Dudes
Member
If a lot are uncomfortable, it's weird that I've never heard anyone complain about it. I play with a lot of "casual" gamers and they've ever once complained about their controllers being uncomfortable. Usually, complaints are confined to build quality.
I believe if this were a major issue, it would've been aided already or a least discussed by the majority.
PdotMichael
Banned
Makes me wonder how that game gets controlled on the PS4 and Xbox One.
Look at you, with the actual design ideas! I'm not sure that first order input is particularly valuable without tactile feedback, tho. Visual feedback for, say, optical pointer aiming seems to me less satisfying than analog movement.
If it really takes a lot of time to adjust or configure it then it defeats the purpose of a controller. Simplified and easy to pick up and play input. I'm not sure it's about resistance to change than it is lack of intuition. The controller's design is interesting and clever but it does fail in what a controller does best. If you want to completely change controller design, you gotta cover that to be successful otherwise it's just going to be a niche. It doesn't do what a controller does, it's doesn't do what keyboard/mouse does.
Dude! The Wiimote + Nunchuk is one of my favorite controllers.
Boombox On
Member
That makes my point. There are a myriad of game genres that someone who only plays on consoles may have never played because the input was not fit for the job. Sim games are not very common on consoles, almost anything involving a cursor based UI is not common. And while shooters are on consoles, they had to be rebuilt from the ground up just to work with controllers.
Hero Prinny
Member
Played like 4 hours of fallout 4 with it, worked pretty good imo, not really gonna try anything slse atm tho since im in love with for atm 
PetriP-TNT
Member
ITT: The guy in the article is wrong, because *uses the exact points that the writer used as some sort of counter points".
I got my controller only yesterday and there's most definitely a long learning curve as far as emulating the now traditional twin stick approach goes: I started playing Fallout 4 with the controller (and plan to play it with the controller only) and it took me an hour to grasp the handling of the trackpad but I am slowly getting better with it. But it did feel intuitive from the second I grabbed the controller, I understood what it did and how it should be used, but still my mind was in full analog stick mode for a while.
Saying that the controller serves no purpose or solves a problem that is not there is just completely and plain wrong. It doesn't solve a problem of not being able to play Call Of Tomb Raider, because those kinds of games are already playable with a dual shock one. There are thousands and thousands of games, even very popular ones, that cannot be played with a controller at all. Not sure if Steam Controller can solve those issues yet, but it definitely feels like it's going to the right way. But then again, I have only played with for an hour or two so it's early to tell.
(As far as for setup, I just threw it to my PC and everything worked. When I launched Fallout 4, it had a profile that did not do anything (most likely because I had a PS3 controller plugged in at the same time). Went to menu, reset to defaults and it has been smooth sailing since then)
I got my controller only yesterday and there's most definitely a long learning curve as far as emulating the now traditional twin stick approach goes: I started playing Fallout 4 with the controller (and plan to play it with the controller only) and it took me an hour to grasp the handling of the trackpad but I am slowly getting better with it. But it did feel intuitive from the second I grabbed the controller, I understood what it did and how it should be used, but still my mind was in full analog stick mode for a while.
Saying that the controller serves no purpose or solves a problem that is not there is just completely and plain wrong. It doesn't solve a problem of not being able to play Call Of Tomb Raider, because those kinds of games are already playable with a dual shock one. There are thousands and thousands of games, even very popular ones, that cannot be played with a controller at all. Not sure if Steam Controller can solve those issues yet, but it definitely feels like it's going to the right way. But then again, I have only played with for an hour or two so it's early to tell.
(As far as for setup, I just threw it to my PC and everything worked. When I launched Fallout 4, it had a profile that did not do anything (most likely because I had a PS3 controller plugged in at the same time). Went to menu, reset to defaults and it has been smooth sailing since then)
CecilRousso
Member
Why do things have to change? Because the best new products are very often things we didn't know we needed/wanted before they arrived.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Not wanting something isn't hating it.
Just not seeing the value proposition enough to get one.
Just not seeing the value proposition enough to get one.
I just received mine today. I play almost exclusively with mouse and keyboard, and with the exception of specialized input devices such as HOTAS, it's easily the best solution for almost every problem. My reason for this purchase was in part due to curiosity and certain cases where a controller may be of use.
I spent several hours across various titles and use cases. I tried some that had official support, and others that did not. First of all, I will say that this isn't a replacement for your mouse and keyboard. I didn't have any illusions of it being otherwise, but I thought I'd make that clear. That said, after my hours of play, I find that it's better than a traditional controller in almost every way. The level of precision and speed is unlike anything you can accomplish on analog sticks. Even with the right pad alone, it's already an incredible leap forward, but further adjustments with the gyros or dampening features, allow you to move even beyond that. Even the ones without official support, after making a configuration, I was able to achieve great results. The community bindings aren't a bad place to start either. I don't know how anyone could sustain an argument where this isn't significantly better in anything related to camera movement, aiming, or cursor control, at the very least. The one possible exception in favor of traditional controllers is games where you extensively use the D-pad for movement, but I haven't played enough of these on the Steam controller to say for sure.
The ergonomics and button placement, while different, appears intentional in that it's designed to avoid having to move your thumb away from movement and camera controls entirely. The presence of the two back buttons reinforces this. The thumb isn't meant to rest flat on the pad, but used with its tip, hence the concave design.
Additionally, the fact that this controller is even viable for games that could never be played on traditional controllers is incredible. Of course, even many genres that were once considered not to be viable with traditional controllers have become so, but at the greatest expense, negatively affecting game design. If the Steam controller's pads were to be adopted by the console manufacturers, this could solve a lot of problems. Of course, that's a big if.
I spent several hours across various titles and use cases. I tried some that had official support, and others that did not. First of all, I will say that this isn't a replacement for your mouse and keyboard. I didn't have any illusions of it being otherwise, but I thought I'd make that clear. That said, after my hours of play, I find that it's better than a traditional controller in almost every way. The level of precision and speed is unlike anything you can accomplish on analog sticks. Even with the right pad alone, it's already an incredible leap forward, but further adjustments with the gyros or dampening features, allow you to move even beyond that. Even the ones without official support, after making a configuration, I was able to achieve great results. The community bindings aren't a bad place to start either. I don't know how anyone could sustain an argument where this isn't significantly better in anything related to camera movement, aiming, or cursor control, at the very least. The one possible exception in favor of traditional controllers is games where you extensively use the D-pad for movement, but I haven't played enough of these on the Steam controller to say for sure.
The ergonomics and button placement, while different, appears intentional in that it's designed to avoid having to move your thumb away from movement and camera controls entirely. The presence of the two back buttons reinforces this. The thumb isn't meant to rest flat on the pad, but used with its tip, hence the concave design.
Additionally, the fact that this controller is even viable for games that could never be played on traditional controllers is incredible. Of course, even many genres that were once considered not to be viable with traditional controllers have become so, but at the greatest expense, negatively affecting game design. If the Steam controller's pads were to be adopted by the console manufacturers, this could solve a lot of problems. Of course, that's a big if.
So.. I'm the guy that wrote the Engadget post. Wish I checked gaf sooner, you folks are having a hell of a discussion with a lot of awesome points. I'm going to cherry pick just a few though.
Here we go.
Man, I kind of feel like we lived through different realities. Yeah, those products prospered in the long run, but do you remember how the community reacted to them in the early days? It wasn't positive.
Gaf recently looked back at the DS Launch, remembering a time when Nintendo was relentlessly teased for the absurdity of having more than one screen on a portable gaming device. Here's a classic gag from the era:
Not to mention the prevalent opinion that the PSP was going to destroy the little handheld:
Again, change was weird and scary. People didn't like it at first blush, but it turned out to be pretty cool.
Do I even need to remind you of the ridicule the Wii faced? It was consistently looked down upon as not being a "real" console by tons of gamers. Sales proved otherwise, but the "revolution" was different, weird and unwanted. Doesn't mean it wasn't great.
Won here gives great examples, too:
I almost forgot about the Boomerang -- and that wasn't even all that different. Console gamers stopped being interested in change years ago. We've had the dual-analog design since 1997, almost twenty years.
I'm not saying we should toss it out overnight, but we should keep our minds open to something new, something different. For me, the Steam Controller is that thing -- and I think it would be that thing for a lot of other people if they approached it less cautiously..but even I admit that it has an absurd learning curve. Yeah, it's totally great, but it's not intuitive, and that makes it a hard sell.
Nor is different always bad. Different is only different -- to state it is good or bad on that word alone is to say nothing. That's why I wrote 1300 words about the need to understand a different things differences before passing judgement on the good or bad nature of those differences. I feel many people have dismissed the different nature of the Steam Controller without first coming to terms with those differences. That is all.
...and speaking of differences, this is a huge and absolutely annoying problem. I'd love Valve to make a companion desktop app that I could use for Non-Steam games, or that can pull profiles from any game and allow you to apply them to any other game.
Right now, for example, I have a bitch'n custom profile for Fallout 4... but because my copy is a press copy that appears in Steam as a different title (Fallout 4 Press), I can't share it with the general Fallout 4 population. Only other press users. It kind of sucks.
The software package needs some improvement.. but in the time I've had it, valve updated the software 17 times. They're working on it, at least.
Yes. Basically.
-----
Anyway, awesome discussion guys. Lots of valid points, most of them very well thought out.
Try to keep this in mind: you don't have to like the Steam Controller because I do -- even if I am right and it is a superior device (which it may not be to you personally), it also has a learning curve.. and learning it may not be worth your valuable time. That's a problem. It's also a perfectly reasonable counterargument.
My issue is the folks I've spoken with who refuse to try it, or worse, those who try it for a very short period of time and reject it after not getting it immediately. That's not completely their fault (again that learning curve), but it doesn't mean it's a bad controller.
I'll leave you (I don't use gaf much) with one more keyboard comparison: you didn't learn to type in a day, but you didn't write off the keyboard as a bad text entry device. You could have bought a wacom tablet and chose to "write" everything on your PC instead. You probably didn't. The Steam Controller is this kind of different. It's okay if that's not for you, but that doesn't make it bad. It just makes it not for you.
...that said, if you did toss your keyboard in the trash and you write with a stylus.. you're kind of awesome and I love you? That's neat.
Here we go.
Man, I kind of feel like we lived through different realities. Yeah, those products prospered in the long run, but do you remember how the community reacted to them in the early days? It wasn't positive.
Gaf recently looked back at the DS Launch, remembering a time when Nintendo was relentlessly teased for the absurdity of having more than one screen on a portable gaming device. Here's a classic gag from the era:
Not to mention the prevalent opinion that the PSP was going to destroy the little handheld:
Again, change was weird and scary. People didn't like it at first blush, but it turned out to be pretty cool.
Do I even need to remind you of the ridicule the Wii faced? It was consistently looked down upon as not being a "real" console by tons of gamers. Sales proved otherwise, but the "revolution" was different, weird and unwanted. Doesn't mean it wasn't great.
Won here gives great examples, too:
I almost forgot about the Boomerang -- and that wasn't even all that different. Console gamers stopped being interested in change years ago. We've had the dual-analog design since 1997, almost twenty years.
I'm not saying we should toss it out overnight, but we should keep our minds open to something new, something different. For me, the Steam Controller is that thing -- and I think it would be that thing for a lot of other people if they approached it less cautiously..but even I admit that it has an absurd learning curve. Yeah, it's totally great, but it's not intuitive, and that makes it a hard sell.
Nor is different always bad. Different is only different -- to state it is good or bad on that word alone is to say nothing. That's why I wrote 1300 words about the need to understand a different things differences before passing judgement on the good or bad nature of those differences. I feel many people have dismissed the different nature of the Steam Controller without first coming to terms with those differences. That is all.
...and speaking of differences, this is a huge and absolutely annoying problem. I'd love Valve to make a companion desktop app that I could use for Non-Steam games, or that can pull profiles from any game and allow you to apply them to any other game.
Right now, for example, I have a bitch'n custom profile for Fallout 4... but because my copy is a press copy that appears in Steam as a different title (Fallout 4 Press), I can't share it with the general Fallout 4 population. Only other press users. It kind of sucks.
The software package needs some improvement.. but in the time I've had it, valve updated the software 17 times. They're working on it, at least.
Yes. Basically.
-----
Anyway, awesome discussion guys. Lots of valid points, most of them very well thought out.
Try to keep this in mind: you don't have to like the Steam Controller because I do -- even if I am right and it is a superior device (which it may not be to you personally), it also has a learning curve.. and learning it may not be worth your valuable time. That's a problem. It's also a perfectly reasonable counterargument.
My issue is the folks I've spoken with who refuse to try it, or worse, those who try it for a very short period of time and reject it after not getting it immediately. That's not completely their fault (again that learning curve), but it doesn't mean it's a bad controller.
I'll leave you (I don't use gaf much) with one more keyboard comparison: you didn't learn to type in a day, but you didn't write off the keyboard as a bad text entry device. You could have bought a wacom tablet and chose to "write" everything on your PC instead. You probably didn't. The Steam Controller is this kind of different. It's okay if that's not for you, but that doesn't make it bad. It just makes it not for you.
...that said, if you did toss your keyboard in the trash and you write with a stylus.. you're kind of awesome and I love you? That's neat.
OfficerZap
Neo Member
Valve's gonna Valve.
Steam is a dominant ecosystem that has a major problem countering the PnP nature of consoles.
They've added Big Screen mode.
They're launching Steam Machines.
People don't want to use a kb+m on the couch, so they build a controller to let you PC from the couch in comfort.
It's not so much a replacement for existing controls as an attempt to bridge gaps to the loungeroom. The value prop here is playing "non controller" games with a controller.
People not liking the new controller doesn't mean they're wrong, or that "gamers" are stick in the mud losers.
They just don't like it.
The same way there's a religious war between symmetrical and asymmetrical stick layouts.
Preferences can't be wrong. "If you could just understand " or "You're just not hip" aren't appropriate responses. Instead, find why people don't prefer it (validate their opinion) and explain how this could be used outside their use case.
Author's being a dick.
Steam is a dominant ecosystem that has a major problem countering the PnP nature of consoles.
They've added Big Screen mode.
They're launching Steam Machines.
People don't want to use a kb+m on the couch, so they build a controller to let you PC from the couch in comfort.
It's not so much a replacement for existing controls as an attempt to bridge gaps to the loungeroom. The value prop here is playing "non controller" games with a controller.
People not liking the new controller doesn't mean they're wrong, or that "gamers" are stick in the mud losers.
They just don't like it.
The same way there's a religious war between symmetrical and asymmetrical stick layouts.
Preferences can't be wrong. "If you could just understand " or "You're just not hip" aren't appropriate responses. Instead, find why people don't prefer it (validate their opinion) and explain how this could be used outside their use case.
Author's being a dick.
Well it's unlikely casual gamers would be using the claw grip in the first place. I would show them this image to them and get their impressions.
I look at that and all I see is a broken controller.
We'll see just how casuals react to the new VR controllers that are built from the ground up to conform to more natural hand movements.
Tarin02543
Member
I had alot of interest in the steam controller in the period leading up to its launch. Then the xbox elite controller was unveiled and I was sold on this instead. I bought a regular xbox one controller instead and couldn't be happier.
I guess I'm an old man (33) that prefers old stuff, just like I don't own a smartphone.
I guess I'm an old man (33) that prefers old stuff, just like I don't own a smartphone.