EU draws up Brexit bill

Hyams said:
A lot of hardcore Brexiteers don't understand why we should pay a bill. They say we voted leave so we should just LEAVE. After all, there are plenty of other countries to trade with!*

*Although quite why these other countries would agree to a comprehensive trade deal with the UK ... if the UK has shown a willingness to not honour its financial commitments ... is an open question.
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Previously on (every episode of) Question Time:

But but but... the commonwealth! We can trade with the wooooorld! WTO! Why haven't we left yet?! German cars! They need us more than we need them! Stop talking Britain down! I'm not racist! Rule Britannia!
 
EmiPrime said:
Previously on (every episode of) Question Time:

But but but... the commonwealth! We can trade with the wooooorld! WTO! Why haven't we left yet?! German cars! They need us more than we need them! Stop talking Britain down! I'm not racist! Rule Britannia!
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I think you might have just triggered me.
 
Sarye said:
I lot of people were lied to about what Brexit actually meant financially and I feel bad for them.

I know why they can't have a redo vote now, but I feel like if you find out that your bus that was heading to the amusement park is actually heading straight off a cliff, you should have the option to get off that bus instead just letting it happen.
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Nope, those people weren't lied to they simply didn't care about the facts.

Project Fear, etc, etc, etc. Even now we have idiots who say look at how well we're doing, the country is doing just fine even though we voted leave, idiots who don't realise nothing has actually happened yet and the real pain and damage to the economy won't be felt until we actually fucking leave.

I even had one dozy cunt point to the GDP figures today and say we're doing just fine now that we've left the EU.
 
RoyalFool said:
We should offer to fund them having a proper financial audit, so see what happened to all that money which went unaccounted for.

Seriously, it's like a divorce - we paid more in than we got out for years, so we should be entitled to a share of whatever that surplus got invested in. Then deduct any obligation which were agreed prior to brexit.

I'm perfectly fine with no deal if they are being twats about it.
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It seriously isn't like a divorce at all.

To the best of my knowledge at no point during the investment was there an expectation of getting the investment back in case the UK decided to leave the EU.

What happened is that the UK made commitments to pay for certain programs, programs which the UK is currently benefiting from and will likely benefit for some time, they are expected to keep paying for those programs for the time they committed to.

In the end it doesn't even matter though, the EU is by extremely far the party that holds all the cards, the UK realistically can do very little, it can comply maybe negotiating a few points here and there, to get this out of the way as fast as possible, so the future relationship can be discussed.
Alternatively the UK can fight this for the 2 years, and end up with no deal because there is no way that 4 decades of mutual investments can be untangled in a satisfactory fashion.
 
Miles Quaritch said:
Project Fear, etc, etc, etc. Even now we have idiots who say look at how well we're doing, the country is doing just fine even though we voted leave, idiots who don't realise nothing has actually happened yet and the real pain and damage to the economy won't be felt until we actually fucking leave.
.
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It has though, and It is real easy to prove to these people that it has caused a great number of companies to raise prices clearly in excess of any annual increase, due to the fall in sterling that was a direct result of the vote. It cannot even be debated. A huge number of companies have commented on this directly, Coca-Cola, Mars, Microsoft, Apple, Valve, Carlsberg. If It is in your house, it is already costing more, and will get worse.
 
Miles Quaritch said:
Nope, those people weren't lied to they simply didn't care about the facts.

Project Fear, etc, etc, etc. Even now we have idiots who say look at how well we're doing, the country is doing just fine even though we voted leave, idiots who don't realise nothing has actually happened yet and the real pain and damage to the economy won't be felt until we actually fucking leave.

I even had one dozy cunt point to the GDP figures today and say we're doing just fine now that we've left the EU.
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The only reason GDP continued to grow as fast as it did was strong consumer spending (largely propt up by debt), which made up for weakness elsewhere in the economy.

Now that Brexit-induced inflation is eating into consumer spending, GDP growth will drop dramatically. See: Q1 2017. It's likely things will only go downhill from here - and you're right, we haven't even left yet!

But then these are the same people who genuinely believed we could repatriate '£350 million a week!' I've found it incredibly frustrating trying to explain to hardcore Brexiteers that leaving the EU = lower GDP = less taxes paid, wiping out the savings on EU membership fees = less money for the NHS, not more.
 
Zvonimir Boban said:
I can't wait for the headlines.
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The EU does realize Brexit is happening with or without their consent right. This is them trying to get concessions, which they might get as they are in a position of strength, but no way in hell will they get increased UK funding for refugees in Turkey and Syria. The UK barely accepted any of the refugees that entered Europe and are waiting to try and enter in Germany and France.

These are negotiations though. In the end, no one is coming out of this stronger.
 
Comparing it to a divorce is such over simplified naive nonsense.

Question for people who know better than me.

What are the odds of Scottish Independence + them joining the EU in say the next 10 years?

Wife's family has been trying to get us to move there for years, and now that our work is totally online, and the U.S. is an ever increasing dumpster fire the idea is becoming more and more appealing.
 
Xando said:
Don't forget Brexit minister David Davis last week said even 1bn is too much and he would walk away if the number is too high

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/davis-warns-britain-will-quit-talks-if-eu-demands-100bn-h9cqqtsxc
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I would be wary of anything Brexit government says because they can't get what they want, single market access without freedom of movement etc. so the narrative will be the EU is stopping us from getting a deal done like this bill so we have to leave with no deal, blame the EU for not budging and your life going to shit post Brexit.
 
The Greek Freak said:
Comparing it to a divorce is such over simplified naive nonsense.

Question for people who know better than me.

What are the odds of Scottish Independence + them joining the EU in say the next 10 years?

Wife's family has been trying to get us to move there for years, and now that our work is totally online, and the U.S. is an ever increasing dumpster fire the idea is becoming more and more appealing.
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Not guaranteed. Try Ireland bro. They love the EU there. Good tech industry if you can stand living in a low tax economy. UK is also a bit of a dumpster fire too recently. I wouldn't move here if I were you, and the Theresa May championed harder work permit requirements may stop you too regardless.
 
Moose Biscuits said:
Is it possible to emigrate if you haven't got any skills
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Not really, no. The EU is one of the trade blocs where this is possible to do it long term, and maybe Mercosur in South America however, IF you are a citizen of their member states. A working holiday is easy to get, though unfortunately can't be renewed. Ireland might still be possible for unskilled people from the UK though via the Common Travel Area (I don't know what citizenship you have).
 
The Greek Freak said:
What are the odds of Scottish Independence + them joining the EU in say the next 10 years?
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Almost certainly not great, if Scotland does separate from the UK, it will probably take them a while to even meet the requirements to join the EU, especially considering that such a separation would significantly hurt Scotland economically for quite a few good years, which in effect would also hurt you for that time.

Ireland is a better option assuming that's viable for you. this speaking of the countries somewhat related to the UK, if other EU countries are acceptable you do have all around better places (no offense to Ireland).
 
Royal_Phalanx said:
Not really, no. The EU is one of the trade blocs where this is possible to do it long term, and maybe Mercosur in South America however, IF you are a citizen of their member states. A working holiday is easy to get, though unfortunately can't be renewed.
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OK. Guess I'm stuck here then.
 
jelly said:
I would be wary of anything Brexit government says because they can't get what they want, single market access without freedom of movement etc. so the narrative will be the EU is stopping us from getting a deal done like this bill so we have to leave with no deal, blame the EU for not budging and your life going to shit post Brexit.
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Their idiotic stances are actually a reason why the EU will do what it needs without consideration for the stupidity of UK politicians.

If they're going to be publicly reviled for saying no to the tiniest things, there is certainly no incentive to try to look good.
 
Royal_Phalanx said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...nk-minorities-threaten-uk-culture-report-says

Meanwhile 56% of people polled believe ethnic minorities 'threaten local culture'.

And /r/ukpolitics resident shitheads seem to love this.
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“This year’s findings demonstrate an overall decline in the support for humanitarian action based on scepticism in the ability to make an impact and ambivalence in defending social values over self-interest.”

Sounds like modern Britain alright. Too bad we couldn't even get the self interest part right.
 
Micael said:
Almost certainly not great, if Scotland does separate from the UK, it will probably take them a while to even meet the requirements to join the EU, especially considering that such a separation would significantly hurt Scotland economically for quite a few good years, which in effect would also hurt you for that time.

Ireland is a better option assuming that's viable for you. this speaking of the countries somewhat related to the UK, if other EU countries are acceptable you do have all around better places (no offense to Ireland).
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The appeal of Scotland is 90% that the cool part of her family lives there pretty close together (almost never see them in person), and 10% bailing on the U.S.

As someone with mixed skin, the idea of having a kid in the U.S. terrifies me, not only because of regular "oh shit a kid" but "oh fuck my kid might get shot by the cops for no reason once he is like 11". Having a kid in Scotland with a dozen awesome family influences within driving distance? Sounds alot easier. Even if Scottish cops are super racist (no idea) at least they probably won't literally shoot him in the back with no repercussions like they could in the U.S.

While I see the appeal of Ireland, I know we will be too lazy to actually go through with it without the family benefit.
 
Madness said:
The EU does realize Brexit is happening with or without their consent right. This is them trying to get concessions, which they might get as they are in a position of strength, but no way in hell will they get increased UK funding for refugees in Turkey and Syria. The UK barely accepted any of the refugees that entered Europe and are waiting to try and enter in Germany and France.
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This isn't them asking for something extra as a negotiating tactic, this is stuff we've already promised to pay for.

These are negotiations though. In the end, no one is coming out of this stronger.
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Makes you wonder why we voted for Brexit, doesn't it?
 
The Greek Freak said:
Comparing it to a divorce is such over simplified naive nonsense.

Question for people who know better than me.

What are the odds of Scottish Independence + them joining the EU in say the next 10 years?

Wife's family has been trying to get us to move there for years, and now that our work is totally online, and the U.S. is an ever increasing dumpster fire the idea is becoming more and more appealing.
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Ireland is your best bet. Pretty eager for immigrants, English speaking and an EU member, with high quality of life. It also stands a good chance of mid/long-term gains post-Brexit from being an Anglosphere tech and economic hub that is part of the EU. It's also trivial to travel to Scotland for weekend trips etc too if your wife is keen on it.
 
Zvonimir Boban said:
Makes you wonder why we voted for Brexit, doesn't it?
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Because we like democracy perhaps? don't think many of the people who voted brexit actually thought we'd be better, or have 350m for the NHS. It's about accountability, the EU heads are so far detached from the everyday person that they cannot be held accountable.
 
The proposals say the UK is still getting it's share of the European Investment Bank, so that's something. Personally I think the assets thing is something that'll be negotiated and presented as a good victory for the UK when the bill is offset somewhat by a share of the assets.

The proposals for citizens rights are interesting too. This is from the FT.

The document on citizens’ rights maintains that all UK or EU migrants on the day Brexit takes place “should be considered legally resident even if they do not hold a residence document evidencing that right”. UK nationals in EU countries will be granted “equal treatment” with EU27 citizens, the draft states.
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The Tories are never going to accept that. The press would go nuclear over an immigration free for all.
 
We're going to give a good old two-fingered up yours to the hideous eurocrat RANSOM. The British will NEVER be slaves to the continental busy bodies so intent on micromanaging our freedom. We will sail this good ship HMS Blighty up to the arctic just so that we don't keep getting bothered by these unelected, undemocratic cowards.
 
RoyalFool said:
Because we like democracy perhaps? don't think many of the people who voted brexit actually thought we'd be better, or have 350m for the NHS. It's about accountability, the EU heads are so far detached from the everyday person that they cannot be held accountable.
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No, it's because you dislike immigration.
 
RoyalFool said:
Because we like democracy perhaps? don't think many of the people who voted brexit actually thought we'd be better, or have 350m for the NHS. It's about accountability, the EU heads are so far detached from the everyday person that they cannot be held accountable.
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So, what was the fucking point then if the country doesn't improve? Does not compute, it's not even in blatant self interest which I could understand.
 
RoyalFool said:
Because we like democracy perhaps? don't think many of the people who voted brexit actually thought we'd be better, or have 350m for the NHS. It's about accountability, the EU heads are so far detached from the everyday person that they cannot be held accountable.
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It has fuck all to do with democracy. If a majority of Britons cared about democracy they wouldn't continue to prop up utter failures of democracy like first-past-the-post, a monarchy funded by the taxpayer, and an unelected upper house stuffed with Bishops and elite donors.

This is about the nationalist delusions of a section of the English electorate that they are a special case who are above the concept of a membership of equals, and reject their own responsibility for the state of the UK.
 
RoyalFool said:
Because we like democracy perhaps? don't think many of the people who voted brexit actually thought we'd be better, or have 350m for the NHS. It's about accountability, the EU heads are so far detached from the everyday person that they cannot be held accountable.
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Democracy? Accountability?

That's cute.

Where were all those voters when we had a referendum on the alternative vote? I assume we're going to see millions and millions of Britons filling every social media network under the sun with a campaign to get rid of the House of Lords in 3...2...
 
avaya said:
Oh no I feel sorry for you. Those that voted remain I truly feel sorry for. However this will have to be painful. Lessons will have to be learned. I am disgusted by this country.
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What a fucking joke you are. Lessons have to be learned and it has to be painful, really? Many people aren't happy about brexit, but this kind of attitude is just ridiculous.
 
The Hamburglar said:
What a fucking joke you are. Lessons have to be learned and it has to be painful, really? Many people aren't happy about brexit, but this kind of attitude is just ridiculous.
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I hate being told I need to suffer on behalf of the people that voted leave too but thankfully avaya doesn't have a say in it one way or the other.
 
Uzzy said:
Referendums on issues of massive constitutional significance make sense. While it was only held to appease the Eurosceptic Tories and UKIP voters, it's not as if this issue came out of nowhere.
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Holding a referendum only makes sense when there's an actual plan in place for either outcome.
 
RoyalFool said:
Because we like democracy perhaps? don't think many of the people who voted brexit actually thought we'd be better, or have 350m for the NHS. It's about accountability, the EU heads are so far detached from the everyday person that they cannot be held accountable.
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The UK is one of the least democratic countries in Western Europe (which is saying something given some of them were still dictatorships 50 years ago).
 
It's not really anything new but...fuck Theresa May, David Davis and the lot of them :/

Fuck Cameron especially for being so monumentally stupid as to let the whole thing happen. Sorta fuck Miliband for pushing him to have an election pledge in his manifesto...but really...there are certain times when the reality of what is going to happen over the next 2 years dawns on me, or what will happen after the next 2 years are over...and it scares me, because of my mental health, my need for the NHS and a multitude of issues that'll become ever more expensive and tough to cope with as I get older.

It's not like I'm the worst off though, I'm sorry to hear Beefy is too ill to work, but its just...more and more it feels like if I even make it to 40 I'm gonna be looking at the guy next to me in the line for VirginTM Healthcare and being all "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos".
 
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