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EU states gearing up to back Palestine statehood to counterweight the US

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With pre-conditions, however

Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks. Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, has called for Britain's backing in part because of its historic responsibility for Palestine. The government has previously refused, citing strong US and Israeli objections and fears of long-term damage to prospects for negotiations.

On Monday night, the government signalled it would change tack and vote yes if the Palestinians modified their application, which is to be debated by the UN general assembly in New York later this week. As a "non-member state", Palestine would have the same status as the Vatican. Whitehall officials said the Palestinians were now being asked to refrain from applying for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice, which could both be used to pursue war crimes charges or other legal claims against Israel.

Abbas is also being asked to commit to an immediate resumption of peace talks "without preconditions" with Israel. The third condition is that the general assembly's resolution does not require the UN security council to follow suit. The US and Israel have both hinted at possible retaliation if the vote goes ahead. Congress could block payments to the Palestinian Authority and Israel might freeze tax revenues it transfers under the 1993 Oslo agreement or, worse, withdraw from the agreement altogether. It could also annex West Bank settlements. Britain's position is that it wants to reduce the risk that such threats might be implemented and bolster Palestinian moderates.

France has already signalled that it will vote yes on Thursday, and the long-awaited vote is certain to pass as 132 UN members have recognised the state of Palestine. Decisions by Germany, Spain and Britain are still pending and Palestinians would clearly prefer a united EU position as counterweight to the US. William Hague, the foreign secretary, discussed the issue on Monday with Abbas and the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, offiicals said.

Palestinian sources said Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, raised the issue with Abbas at his Ramallah headquarters last week, shortly before a ceasefire was agreed in the Gaza Strip, as had Tony Blair, the Quartet envoy. Abbas has been widely seen to have been sidelined by his rivals in the Islamist movement Hamas, as well by his failure to win any concessions from Israel. Abbas, whose remit does not extend beyond the West Bank, hopes a strong yes vote will persuade Israel to return to talks after more than two years.

Officals in Ramallah have opposed surrendering on the ICC issue so it can be used as a bargaining chip in future, but views are thought to be divided. Abbas said at the weekend: "We are going to the UN fully confident in our steps. We will have our rights because you are with us."

Leila Shaid, Palestine's representative to the EU, said: "After everything that has happened in the Arab spring, Britain can't pretend it is in favour of democracy in Libya, Syria and Egypt but accept the Palestinians continuing to live under occupation. As the former colonial power, Britain has a historic responsibility to Palestine. Britain is a very important country in the Middle East, it has extensive trade relations, and David Cameron should know he risks a popular backlash from Arab public opinion if he does not support us."

Palestinians have rejected the claim that they are acting unilaterally, calling the UN path "the ultimate expression of multilateralism". Israel's apparent opposition to unilateralism has not stopped it acting without agreement to build and expand settlements, they say.​

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/27/uk-ready-to-back-palestine-statehood?CMP=twt_gu
 

Jackpot

Banned
Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks.

Why would anyone want to avoid this if there's enough evidence for charges to be brought?
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This is one of those issues I refuse to touch because I can't figure out why anyone supports anyone
 
Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks

Convenient.
 
Why would anyone want to avoid this if there's enough evidence for charges to be brought?

Because it would be a diplomatic nightmare for Britain, France and the US as they would have to veto charge after charge and it would make us unpopular in the Middle East.

This is the most practical solution for now, and given that we are looking at voting in favour it also means the Americans are in favour of it as on these issues our vote is more a proxy vote for them as they pretty much have to vote against any Palestinian gambit for statehood.
 

Tacitus_

Member
I have an article from today (in Finnish) saying that Spain, Switzerland, Finland, Norway and Denmark have pledged their support for this bid. Based on the wording of the article, Sweden is either undecided or against.
 

mavs

Member
Because it would be a diplomatic nightmare for Britain, France and the US as they would have to veto charge after charge and it would make us unpopular in the Middle East.

This is the most practical solution for now, and given that we are looking at voting in favour it also means the Americans are in favour of it as on these issues our vote is more a proxy vote for them as they pretty much have to vote against any Palestinian gambit for statehood.

The US is not party to the ICC so we have no influence on its actions. For that matter neither is the PA so any charges against Israel would result in internationally defined borders for the Palestinian state, possibly without negotiation since Israel is another non-party.
 

nib95

Banned
Whitehall officials said the Palestinians were now being asked to refrain from applying for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice

Pretty disgraceful this is even being suggested. Pretty much shows the grander picture of just how potentially heinous Israels actions have been that such powers feel threatened by the very idea of Justice being pursued on an international scale. Hope Palestine win the bid and continue the pursuit of justice and fairness on a wider platform.

Fuck the disgusting supporters of this continued aggressive illegal expansion and the brutal oppression of the Palestinian people. It's because of countries like the US that this has been allowed to go on to the extent it has, and what merit do we the UK have on this when we are hugely responsible for much of this whole debacle in the first place? Countries pandering to the US by shunting morality and sense bring grave embarrassment and a lack of credibility to themselves.


I'd have thought our government would learn its lesson in refraining from blindly supporting the US in its foreign policy and affairs. We all know how Iraq turned out....
 

Jeels

Member
Pretty disgraceful this is even being suggested. Pretty much shows the grander picture of just how potentially heinous Israels actions have been that such powers feel threatened by the very idea of Justice being pursued on an international scale. Hope Palestine win the bid and continue the pursuit of justice and fairness on a wider platform.

Fuck the disgusting supporters of this continued aggressive illegal expansion and the brutal oppression of the Palestinian people. It's because of countries like the US that this has been allowed to go on to the extent it has, and what merit do we the UK have on this when we are hugely responsible for much of this whole debacle in the first place? Countries pandering to the US by shunting morality and sense bring grave embarrassment and a lack of credibility to themselves.


I'd have thought our government would learn its lesson in refraining from blindly supporting the US in its foreign policy and affairs. We all know how Iraq turned out....

It would be pretty awesome if the UK stood with the other European countries. It'd make the US stance look incredibly weak, which it is.
 
Sounds promising, I hope the UK comes around and backs it in the end.

The talks of a muted Israeli reaction are pretty funny. Lieberman talking about recouping the NIS715 million that the PA owe the Israel Electric Company, from the taxes that Israel collects on their behalf. Really sad that the Israel Electric Company have to wait for a major diplomatic row to get paid for providing electricity to PA areas.
 

usea

Member
I thought the US supported a Palestinian state, but that the dispute is over where the borders should be (e.g. gaza, the west bank, golan whatever)
 
It would be pretty awesome if the UK stood with the other European countries. It'd make the US stance look incredibly weak, which it is.

That happened last year when the US stood alone in choosing to veto a condemnation of the occupied territories, territories it itself recognises as illegal ironically.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/19/us-veto-israel-settlement

Washington's controversial move clearly riled other members of the security council. Britain, France and Germany put out a joint statement in which they explained they had voted for the resolution "because our views on settlements, including east Jerusalem, are clear: they are illegal under international law, an obstacle to peace, and constitute a threat to a two-state solution. All settlement activity, including in east Jerusalem, should cease immediately."
 

MrHicks

Banned
I thought the US supported a Palestinian state, but that the dispute is over where the borders should be (e.g. gaza, the west bank, golan whatever)

the US supports whathever israel supports
so sad seeing a superpower act like such a bitch
 
the US supports whathever israel supports
so sad seeing a superpower act like such a bitch

We may have all the money and martial power, but when the trumpets sound and the sky parts and Jesus comes back we'll be thankful we rode Israel's dick all these years.
 

Sylver

Banned
France has already signalled that it will vote yes on Thursday, and the long-awaited vote is certain to pass as 132 UN members have recognised the state of Palestine. Decisions by Germany, Spain and Britain are still pending and Palestinians would clearly prefer a united EU position as counterweight to the US. William Hague, the foreign secretary, discussed the issue on Monday with Abbas and the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, offiicals said.

Spain will vote yes.
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/11/28/espana/1354092746.html
 

Bo-Locks

Member
Leila Shaid, Palestine's representative to the EU, said: "After everything that has happened in the Arab spring, Britain can't pretend it is in favour of democracy in Libya, Syria and Egypt but accept the Palestinians continuing to live under occupation. As the former colonial power, Britain has a historic responsibility to Palestine.

She should know that Britain doen't have any of the guilt issues that Germany does. If it did, we'd never hear the end of it.

Even France don't want the PA to pursue the ICC/ICJ route. It's just a powerplay. Israel is not a signatory of the ICC, so the PA would have to go to the Security Council to force the ICC to investigate, which obviously won't happen. It just complicates matters even further and would force the US, UK and France to veto everything. Given that war crimes are regularly committed by both sides, the legal battle would never end, and achieve very little. Once the PA opens itself up as the victim, it would also have to take a share of the burden for the war crimes committed by the Palestinians themselves.

The British position is fair and logical. Drop the prerequisites, keep things simple and don't pester Israel through the ICJ.

Two sovereign states negotiating over territory is preferable and simpler to two states, only one of which is a signatory to the ICC, negotiating over territory.
 

Grim1ock

Banned
The good thing about this bid is that it shows the pals who are their true friends and their enemies.

There are thousands of palestinians in israeli jails without any trials or charges. And when an idf soldier kills an palestinian he often walks away free. People like that idf colonel who murdered a young palestinian girl and pumped her body full of bullets deserve to face justice

About time the palestinians got some justice through the ICC
 

devilhawk

Member
The good thing about this bid is that it shows the pals who are their true friends and their enemies.

There are thousands of palestinians in israeli jails without any trials or charges. And when an idf soldier kills an palestinian he often walks away free. People like that idf colonel who murdered a young palestinian girl and pumped her body full of bullets deserve to face justice

About time the palestinians got some justice through the ICC
There will be no justice. Israel is not a ratified party to the ICC. The US will veto everything in the security council. Any "justice" Israel gets will be in the form of a sharply worded letter.
 
The US is not party to the ICC so we have no influence on its actions. For that matter neither is the PA so any charges against Israel would result in internationally defined borders for the Palestinian state, possibly without negotiation since Israel is another non-party.

Yes, that's why Palestine would have to pursue any case via the Security Council and it would require a lot of vetoes from France/Britain/America which would not be popular in the Middle East.
 

nib95

Banned
Wait what, Germany voting no? I didn't expect that. Usually they're quite supportive of Palestine. I wonder what bone the Americans threw them?
 
Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks.
Hahaha, they fucking know that the Israeli government is full of shit and criminals.

The funny thing? They don't even need the support of the EU.
 

Kinyou

Member
Hahaha, they fucking know that the Israeli government is full of shit and criminals.

The funny thing? They don't even need the support of the EU.
The bid itself just sounds so ridiculous.

"Hey we know, they committed warcrimes, but it would be really cool if you could just forget about that."
 

pigeon

Banned
Frankly, this is the perfect time for the US to abstain. If we want peace, we need to support Abbas. Unfortunately, this probably won't happen.
 

Wthermans

Banned
I absolutely revile the way that support for Israel is tied to Christianity in the US. The blind support of that country under religious pretenses is sickening.
 
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