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[DangerousDave]

From a business perspective I don't see how MS would make up the shortfall in revenue if they made Live free and got rid of the ads. I know gamers don't care, but something would have to replace that revenue going forward, because it's not like MS is raking in huge profits from their gaming business.

No one here is saying that MS should turn Live free AND get rid of the ads.

They are simply explaining the inconvenience of having their service of payment AND with ads. Specially when other have their services free and without ads. I think that everyone here won't complain about ads if that made Live free.

 

[lowrider007]

So... there is people here that thing that ads in the dashboard is the same than the ads in Home?

Probably next step will be saying that Wii has also ads if you use the browser.

Completely agree mate, I'm in disbelief at these people trying to make out this is the same thing, when it blatantly isn't.

 

[NullPointer]

When Cable TV first launched, it launched without any ads, and that was one of the selling points of the service.

They then "innovated" in the same way MS is talking about here. I also have zero doubt this will lead to more ads, as well as more intrusive ads on the 360. Its the nature of the beast.

 

[Data West]

I'm more pissed at unskippable HERES WHO MEDE THIS GAME at the start of games nowadays than ads I can just fly by without having to watch

 

[surly]

I think that everyone here won't complain about ads if that made Live free.

Some would still complain I'm sure, but the point I was making still stands. Make Live free and that would equate to an annual loss in revenue of $30-$60 x however many customers pay for Gold per year, i.e. a boatload of cash. MS aren't just going to take that hit when their gaming business has lost them so much money.

Specially when other have their services free and without ads.

That's true, but then look at how those companies are doing. Nintendo has made billions by selling the weakest console hardware-wise by some distance at a profit from day one, and with the least fully featured online service. Sony, on the other hand, has lost billions by selling a powerful console at a loss for a long time, and by running their online service at a loss as well. Sony have lost so much this gen so far that I can't see how they're going to make that back before the generation ends.

What I'm saying is, unless one manufacturer is utterly dominant (as Sony have been in the past), then there have to be compromises. I'm not saying it has to be paid for online services and adverts, but something has to give. Sony gives you powerful hardware sold at a loss, free online that's decent, but even with the profit-making PS2 and PSP on the market at the same time as the PS3, they're the most financially fucked of the three for this generation. Do you think they will repeat this business model for the PS4? If they don't, do you blame them?

 

[Neuromancer]

To be fair that video is not targeted at consumers, it's a video for advertisers and marketing people. It's certainly not meant to convince users how cool these ad features will be.

Knowing this video wasn't specifically aimed at me doesn't make it any less onerous.

 

[surly]

Completely agree mate, I'm in disbelief at these people trying to make out this is the same thing, when it blatantly isn't.

It was only one person and he specifically stated that he was not trying to imply that they're the same thing: -

In none of the posts I said it was the same thing, just talking about different things and how there are different ways to advertise things.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

*looks at recent NPD sales and Live activity lists*

It would seem the advertisers are on the money.

*Looks at avatar* You my friend are right.

Well, yeah. They're in the business to make money just like every other business. Is not like Sony introduced PlayStation Plus out of kindness. Neither why they updated their XMB to put small ads in each section (Games, Movies, Music..and in Home) a few years ago.

But for example...

Before NuAds, Snuggler:
1. Turned on his Xbox 360
2. Navigated around the dashboard, noticed the "beef jerky ad" in the Games section, but ignored it.
3. Checked around for some games, nothing interesting; head backs to play his favorite game

Spoiler

of course, Fable III

.

After NuAds, Snuggler:
1. Turned on his Xbox 360
2. Navigated around the dashboard, noticed the "beef jerky ad" in the Games section, but ignored it.
3. Checked around for some games, nothing interesting; head backs to play his favorite game

Spoiler

of course, Fable: The Journey

.

All I'm saying is that NuAds is not the epitome of intrusion that should make us all quit Xbox Live; that some people are trying to make it.

It's not, but nothing really starts out with a bang. Usually it starts out slow and if adopted it will blow up in the consumers face. Basically if the people that are defending this shit catches Microsoft's eyes they will use it as a reason to push that rod deeper into their consumers arse.

 

[kevm3]

Microsoft floods their services with ads AND requires you to pay to access the online portion of your games because they can. People are still going to run out and pay that $60 fee, so they figure why not put more money in their pocket if the consumer is so accepting?

 

[fernoca]

It's not, but nothing really starts out with a bang. Usually it starts out slow and if adopted it will blow up in the consumers face. Basically if the people that are defending this shit catches Microsoft's eyes they will use it as a reason to push that rod deeper into their consumers arse.

But, it goes back to the same point: Who in this thread is "defending them"?
Who in here said "I love ads, I can't wait for NuAds..hope they bring more!!"... (well aside sarcasm.. )

The closest to "defending them" I've seen in this thread, is others saying that those of us that said "we don't mind", are basically bending and taking it...without lube. (or how we're just stupid/casuals/etc.) ...when we just pay for the service, are satisfied with it, and see no problems with the ads here and there. Or the ones that talk about this move making sense as far as income and money goes; but no actual "defenders" that approve this.

That it may be a taste of things to come, who knows right know. Heck for all we know, the PlayStation 4 equivalent of the XMB could be full of ads, sponsors, micro-transactions (seeing how they're testing all that with Home) and a paid-service with some benefits (seeing how they're testing it with Plus); yet there's no reason to start thinking about that ...now. And with so many awesome games coming by the end of this year only, the least thing on my mind right now is NuAds, or any ad for that matter.

 

[lowrider007]

It was only one person and he specifically stated that he was not trying to imply that they're the same thing: -

Well he seemed to be insinuating it was the same thing, if you read back he is drawing comparisons with how many ads are on 360 dash to how many there are in home at one point, perhaps I read it wrong.

Anyway, I don't have an issue with ads myself, 'but', I do have an issue as to how they are incorporated into my entertainment experience, forced ads are a no go imo, the spotlight channel in the 360 dashboard is fine but being forced onto that channel at start-up and every time I exit a game is far from fine, I don't care that I only have to press up on my controller, I don't want to be forced onto that channel, it's too blatant, I think there are subtler ways of displaying ads or information.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

But, it goes back to the same point: Who in this thread is "defending them"?
Who in here said "I love ads, I can't wait for NuAds..hope they bring more!!"... (well aside sarcasm.. )

The closest to "defending them" I've seen in this thread, is others saying that those of us that said "we don't mind", are basically bending and taking it...without lube. (or how we're just stupid/casuals/etc.) ...when we just pay for the service, are satisfied with it, and see no problems with the ads here and there. Or the ones that talk about this move making sense as far as income and money goes; but no actual "defenders" that approve this.

That it may be a taste of things to come, who knows right know. Heck for all we know, the PlayStation 4 equivalent of the XMB could be full of ads, sponsors, micro-transactions (seeing how they're testing all that with Home) and a paid-service with some benefits (seeing how they're testing it with Plus); yet there's no reason to start thinking about that ...now. And with so many awesome games coming by the end of this year only, the least thing on my mind right now is NuAds, or any ad for that matter.

Saying "I don't mind" is basically saying "bring it". If you don't mind them bringing it then you are not protesting, and if you are not protesting then you obviously accept it and that's a reason for them to bring it. Remember when ads started on YouTube video's? they started with those little pop ups on the bottom of the screen, now you are forced to watch 30 sec ads before a 40 sec video starts . If you do not protest while it's still in it's infancy you will never have the chance to protest again. Turning a blind eye to this is basically welcoming it, and it will only grow believe me.

 

[Jomjom]

I dont get why I don't have the option to turn off ads completely when I have to pay for the service.

 

[surly]

being forced onto that channel at start-up and every time I exit a game is far from fine, I don't care that I only have to press up on my controller

You said in the other thread on this topic that you find having to press up once on an analogue stick "utterly infuriating". Do you really? It's hard to imagine someone being utterly filled with fury at having to momentarily push up on a stick, but if you are, I'd have thought you'd choose the option to exit directly to the games library instead of the dashboard.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

You said in the other thread on this topic that you find having to press up once on an analogue stick "utterly infuriating". Do you really? It's hard to imagine someone being utterly filled with fury at having to momentarily push up on a stick, but if you are, I'd have thought you'd choose the option to exit directly to the games library instead of the dashboard.

See, this is the problem. It doesn't matter if it infuriates him, what matter is that it shouldn't be there in the first place. (btw Defender number 1 found)

 

[lowrider007]

You said in the other thread on this topic that you find having to press up once on an analogue stick "utterly infuriating". Do you really? It's hard to imagine someone being utterly filled with fury at having to momentarily push up on a stick, but if you are, I'd have thought you'd choose the option to exit directly to the games library instead of the dashboard.

I don't get 'infuriated' at having to press up, that's silly, I get infuriated at being forced onto that channel all the time, there is a difference.

 

[surly]

See, this is the problem. It doesn't matter if it infuriates him, what matter is that it shouldn't be there in the first place. (btw Defender number 1 found)

It just find it a little strange that someone would describe it as "utterly infuriating" when it's not something you have to do. Even if you did have to do it, "utterly infuriating" is yet another example of the OTT bullshit being spouted by some people in this thread.

 

[alr1ght]

You said in the other thread on this topic that you find having to press up once on an analogue stick "utterly infuriating". Do you really? It's hard to imagine someone being utterly filled with fury at having to momentarily push up on a stick, but if you are, I'd have thought you'd choose the option to exit directly to the games library instead of the dashboard.

would you be pissed off if you booted a game and the first thing you see is a 15 second commercial? I bet you would. DVDs used to not have this, but look at them now. No huge inconvenience in the long run, but "utterly infuriating" for a paying customer.

 

[fernoca]

Saying "I don't mind" is basically saying "bring it". If you don't mind them bringing it then you are not protesting, and if you are not protesting then you obviously accept it and that's a reason for them to bring it. Remember when ads started on YouTube video's? they started with those little pop ups on the bottom of the screen, now you are forced to watch 30 sec ads before a 40 sec video starts . If you do not protest while it's still in it's infancy you will never have the chance to protest again. Turning a blind eye to this is basically welcoming it, and it will only grow believe me.

But then, how to protest?

1. Not paying for Xbox Live, doesn't remove the ads; as free subscribers also get ads.

2. The ads are mostly in the US, as users from other regions have said in this thread misc. ads with no relation to Xbox Live aren't part of their dashboards.​

Am I supposed to just sell my Xbox 360, despite that it hasn't failed me on the main reason I bought one: play videogames? I don't know, what's a good alternative to protest, in your case, for example..how are you protesting?

Well he seemed to be insinuating it was the same thing, if you read back he is drawing comparisons with how many ads are on 360 dash to how many there are in home at one point, perhaps I read it wrong.

Anyway, I don't have an issue to ads myself, 'but', I do have an issue as to how they are incorporated into my entertainment experience, forced ads are a no go imo, the spotlight channel in the 360 dash channel is fine but being forced onto that channel at start-up and every time I exit a game is far from fine, I don't care that I only have to press up on my controller, I don't want to be forced onto that channel, it's to blatant, I think there a subtler ways of displaying ads or information.

That, reading it may have given the wrong impression to some. So, sorry in that aspect.

I was just drawing back to a point made earlier, when some of us were suggesting to ignore the ads, or ways to avoid them (launching to disc, choosing anything though the guide, launching offline then connecting online); and how ignoring the ads doesn't change the fact that the ads are still there. And that things might just get worse, because of those of us that don't mind/ignore them. Which is why I said, that. There are tons of ads/sponsors in Home too and Sony has talked about Home been profitable; to them, yet I don't see people talking about Sony turning the PS4 into a big Home-esque lobby/chat room with tons of ads...and you have to pay for it too.

But the actual post, was never to give the impression that 360 Dashboard = Home. So if I gave that impression, again..my mistake.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Ads are everywhere: Movies, Television, Radio, Internet, Newspapers, Magazines, Billboards, Sports events, and the list goes on. No sense in crying about it. This was going to happen sooner or later anyway. And it won't be just Microsoft. It's going to be Nintendo and Sony, too. We might as well be thankful that it took this long. And I hardly equate advertisements in video game services to taking it up the butt with no lube. Totally hilarious.

 

[surly]

would you be pissed off if you booted a game and the first thing you see is a 15 second commercial? I bet you would. DVDs used to not have this, but look at them now. No huge inconvenience in the long run, but "utterly infuriating" for a paying customer.

But that's what you do see a lot of the time with games. You have to skip past a bunch of logos. I can't think of any recent console games that boot straight to the menu where I can just select start or continue. Maybe there are some though.

Besides, what's that got to do with pressing up once to go from Spotlight to My Xbox, which is something that takes as long as pushing up on a stick takes, not 15 seconds.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

But then, how to protest?

1. Not paying for Xbox Live, doesn't remove the ads; as free subscribers also get ads.

2. The ads are mostly in the US, as users from other regions have said in this thread misc. ads with no relation to Xbox Live aren't part of their dashboards.​

Am I supposed to just sell my Xbox 360, despite that it hasn't failed me on the main reason I bought one: play videogames? I don't know, what's a good alternative to protest, in your case, for example..how are you protesting?



That, reading it may have given the wrong impression to some. So, sorry in that aspect.

I was just drawing back to a point made earlier, when some of us were suggesting to ignore the ads, or ways to avoid them (launching to disc, choosing anything though the guide, launching offline then connecting online); and how ignoring the ads doesn't change the fact that the ads are still there. And that things might just get worse, because of those of us that don't mind/ignore them. Which is why I said, that. There are tons of ads/sponsors in Home too and Sony has talked about Home been profitable; to them, yet I don't see people talking about Sony turning the PS4 into a big Home-esque lobby/chat room with tons of ads...and you have to pay for it too.

But the actual post, was never to give the impression that 360 Dashboard = Home. So if I gave that impression, again..my mistake.

One person doesn't make a significant difference when it comes to things like these, and am pretty sure the majority of people will right it off as a mild annoyance. Back to my YouTube video comment. When they added those little pop ups it was a mild annoyance to many people (The X button was smashed before the ad even appeared) but there were others who saw that it was an avenue that was going to lead to something bigger, and it did. This is exactly that same situation, it's currently a mild annoyance and nothing you nor i do will change that (Unfortunately) but as time goes the avenue will only grow and it will reach a point were people will then start to protest but it will be too little too late (Those stupid YouTube comment's that ask for the ads to be removed, but at the end of the day they watch the video's anyways).

But that's what you do see a lot of the time with games. You have to skip past a bunch of logos. I can't think of any recent console games that boot straight to the menu where I can just select start or continue. Maybe there are some though.

Besides, what's that got to do with pressing up once to go from Spotlight to My Xbox, which is something that takes as long as pushing up on a stick takes, not 15 seconds.

It will grow to a point were it's no longer "pushing up on the stick" and it will become "wait 15 seconds till ad is finished".

 

[Freshmaker]

What if the ad revenue helps make the paid service better?

What's the revenue for the paid service doing?

 

[fernoca]

One person doesn't make a significant difference when it comes to things like these, and am pretty sure the majority of people will right it off as a mild annoyance. Back to my YouTube video comment. When they added those little pop ups it was a mild annoyance to many people (The X button was smashed before the ad even appeared) but there were others who saw that it was an avenue that was going to lead to something bigger, and it did. This is exactly that same situation, it's currently a mild annoyance and nothing you nor i do will change that (Unfortunately) but as time goes the avenue will only grow and it will reach a point were people will then start to protest but it will be too little too late (Those stupid YouTube comment's that ask for the ads to be removed, but at the end of the day they watch the video's anyways).

That I agree, which is why in that sense I don't mind how are things are now. And it's obvious that "in the future" it might be worst. Similar to what alr1ghtstart said; there might be even games that right when you put them you a 15-30 seconds spot might play, before going to the usual company logos.

In the end I see more positives than negatives; like with Hulu Plus.
Even when you have to pay, you usually get the same commercials in between series and movies. Kinda sucks...but the advantages of HD streaming, having a decent amount of series and movies to stream at any time in HD.

Then when I compare that to Netflix, which doesn't allow streaming of any content to Puerto Rico, because of copyright infringements and some licenses. Even when they charged the exact same amount of money for subscribers in PR to the US and we can't stream content. People protested, sent letters and managed to get interviews and responses from the heads at Netflix..and nothing. Not even a discount in the price, because of the whole no streaming issue (i.e. paying for less content than advertised). Then when asked about why Hulu and others stream content to PR, they blamed the studios saying that they're the ones that decided.

So even paying and getting ads, I don't mind the ads in Hulu Plus. Now Netflix, good luck on having me use a free trial. They loss a lot of people from PR too because of that and they haven't done anything to try to get "us" back.

 

[ghst]

you just know some of this thread's arguments are gonna be quoted ad verbatim in the pr feeler-packs doing the redmond blackberry rounds on monday morning.

if fernoca's lucky, he might even get his name up on a whiteboard.

 

[fernoca]

you just know some of this thread's arguments are gonna be quoted ad verbatim in the pr feeler-packs doing the redmond blackberry rounds on monday morning.

if fernoca's lucky, he might even get his name up on a whiteboard.

Hahaha XD ..hope not, they probably don't even know how to pronounce "fernoca". They'll just say: "so this *points at board* user"..

 

[surly]

It will grow to a point were it's no longer "pushing up on the stick" and it will become "wait 15 seconds till ad is finished".

If it does, I shall re-evaluate the situation, but there's no point whining about something that hasn't happened and may never happen.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

If it does, I shall re-evaluate the situation, but there's no point whining about something that hasn't happened and may never happen.

It's pretty much a guarantee that it will happen, in fact i will make a bet of $20 today and in 2 years time if it hasn't happened i will paypal you the money.

 

[kevm3]

Ads are everywhere: Movies, Television, Radio, Internet, Newspapers, Magazines, Billboards, Sports events, and the list goes on. No sense in crying about it. This was going to happen sooner or later anyway. And it won't be just Microsoft. It's going to be Nintendo and Sony, too. We might as well be thankful that it took this long. And I hardly equate advertisements in video game services to taking it up the butt with no lube. Totally hilarious.

The only reason it happens is because consumers accept with with a smile. Screw that accepting it nonsense. I guess we should accept Microsoft trying to lock down PC with pay for play like they attempted to with Live on Windows? Well that didn't work since gamers didn't go for it.

 

[surly]

It's pretty much a guarantee that it will happen, in fact i will make a bet of $20 today and in 2 years time if it hasn't happened i will paypal you the money.

OK, that sounds fair enough. I don't mind taking your money.

How do you know that it will happen though, as it's a future event? Does it say it in the Bible?

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

OK, that sounds fair enough. I don't mind taking your money.

How do you know that it will happen though, as it's a future event? Does it say it in the Bible?

We are humans and big companies are run by humans. Something like this benefits them as a company, but having the advert optional will not get them some pay. If they impose it (Under compulsion) then they get more pay from the company whose product is getting advertised. humans are greedy and we love money, in this case it's no longer revenue the bulk of it is profit.

 

[DangerousDave]

Sony, on the other hand, has lost billions by selling a powerful console at a loss for a long time, and by running their online service at a loss as well. Sony have lost so much this gen so far that I can't see how they're going to make that back before the generation ends.

What I'm saying is, unless one manufacturer is utterly dominant (as Sony have been in the past), then there have to be compromises. I'm not saying it has to be paid for online services and adverts, but something has to give. Sony gives you powerful hardware sold at a loss, free online that's decent, but even with the profit-making PS2 and PSP on the market at the same time as the PS3, they're the most financially fucked of the three for this generation. Do you think they will repeat this business model for the PS4? If they don't, do you blame them?

First, even if Sony lose money in the online (quite obvious, if it's free and without ads), you don't know (well, nobody know) how many PS3 has been sold worldwide mainly because of the free online.

Also, of course I understand that MS win more money with ads than without ads. And Sony win more money without supporting Linux. And Nintendo win more money selling their portable console at 250$, just because the hype after the past E3 was huge. And Activision get more money selling their CoD games at 60$, with three 15$ map DLC.

But, as consumers, we can ask (or, at least, vote with our wallet) if their tactics to get befenifts don't like us. MS win TONS of money with the paid Live. A lot of millions each year. Is really necessary the ads to keep Live as it is, without losing money? No, is not necessary. That's the complain.

 

[jgkspsx]

Like many, I like the gaming ads. (I wouldn't mind targeted ads, so I don't get ads for bald space marines.) Everything else should get off my console.

 

[Paches]

My favorite part about this shit is how these marketing suits spin this shit and call it innovation. They wanted my opinion on the service? I think it blows ass.

 

[enzo_gt]

I know it's devious, but one of the most overexaggerated things this gen has been the "MS shoves ads down my throat I can't breathe someone help" reaction. I've had my 360 for about 5 years and they have never once looked out of context and never have annoyed me either. Like TV commercials, you adapt to avoid them, and it really becomes a non-issue when you can still find the shit your looking for, uninhibited by said ads. I don't even notice them anymore.

People really love to get riled up about nothing.

 

[Aouri]

I don't want to pay for ads! That's like paying someone to take a sh!t at your doorsteps...

 

[disappeared]

What's the revenue for the paid service doing?

Nothing that contributes to making our game experience any better. That's for fucking sure.

 

[freddy]

I know it's devious, but one of the most overexaggerated things this gen has been the "MS shoves ads down my throat I can't breathe someone help" reaction. I've had my 360 for about 5 years and they have never once looked out of context and never have annoyed me either. Like TV commercials, you adapt to avoid them, and it really becomes a non-issue when you can still find the shit your looking for, uninhibited by said ads. I don't even notice them anymore.

People really love to get riled up about nothing.

It's not nothing though. You may have convinced yourself otherwise for whatever reason but let's not try downplay the fact that these are ads on a paid service. People have a legitimate right to feel annoyed.

 

[Freshmaker]

First, even if Sony lose money in the online (quite obvious, if it's free and without ads), you don't know (well, nobody know) how many PS3 has been sold worldwide mainly because of the free online.

Doubtful they lose money on online when they can line up people to stand around in Home buying $5 t shirts etc for their avatars all day long.

 

[onken]

I thought the whole PSN losing money thing was because of large-scale infrastructure investment, not because of an unviable business model.

 

[lockload]

I pay for Xbox Live.

Why the fuck am I getting advertisements in the first place?

I play for lots of thing that still have adverts, im sure you do too

 

[SamuraiX-]

So are we allowed to blame this on Kinect?

 

[Neuromancer]

So are we allowed to blame this on Kinect?

Yeah I don't see why not

 

[Alx]

So are we allowed to blame this on Kinect?

If what bothers you is that they added the ability to "click" on ads with voice, then maybe yes. But I haven't seen anybody complain about that.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

So are we allowed to blame this on Kinect?

Kinect allows to add new functionality, that can be used only if you are already watching the ad. So no, I don't think you can blame this on Kinect.

 

[Salazar]

My favorite part about this shit is how these marketing suits spin this shit and call it innovation. They wanted my opinion on the service? I think it blows ass.

I get to tweet some prefabricated dribble about how awesome Coca Cola's advertising campaign is.

I can't imagine how sterile someone's imagination has to be, or how positively reptilian their greed, for them to think that this is exciting.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

One of the reasons i sold my xbox 360 was because of the online. Im not huge online gamer, but i do use once in a while. So i cant justify paying 50 a year, but i defiantly want it there.

 

[Gandie]

I gave them the benefit of the doubt too, until I watched this video:

Interactive TV Ads - Cannes Lions - Microsoft Advertising

Disgusting.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I'm more pissed at unskippable HERES WHO MEDE THIS GAME at the start of games nowadays than ads I can just fly by without having to watch

There was a thread about how long it takes to get into the game after being forced to watch all the developer intros and rumbling through menus. Rediculous.

There are usually more than that on PlayStation Home alone, but I guess since noone goes there; they don't notice.

heh

 

[Corky]

Disgusting.

Oh loooord what the hell hahahaha that's....ughh....oh man.