Support NeoGAF

[Deleted member 231381]

I think we sorta should do the country rating as a thread effort, since that would be too much for everyone else to judge. There are how many countries? 200? Everyone voting for those individually is too much work. I only would like the actual player voting to be anonymous, but the rest could work if we juggle around with the numbers a bit.

I think if we use the "not listed countries are assumed to have been given 5/10" rule, it works fine. Even a player rated 10/10 by everyone can play a 5/10 average nation, so we don't need to care so much after that point. Most nations don't really have very good starts, the number of nations that you would genuinely rate as 6/10 or above are probably not that high. We could decide openly, though.

 

[Morfeo]

I will just say that I think we are bordering on a way to complicated system here. As I play in India, there is no way for me to really judge how well Haly is progressing each session as the Hansa in Europe. One score after the whole game should be enough imo.

Edit: But Im glad we are discussion this and that it seems we might change some stuff for the next game.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I will just say that I think we are bordering on a way to complicated system here. As I play in India, there is no way for me to really judge how well Haly is progressing each session as the Hansa in Europe. One score after the whole game should be enough imo.

Edit: But Im glad we are discussion this and that it seems we might change some stuff for the next game.

Uh, when I meant session, I meant like "finished game", sorry. I didn't mean track everyone's progress after every Wednesday, that'd be hellish.

 

[Toma]

I will just say that I think we are bordering on a way to complicated system here. As I play in India, there is no way for me to really judge how well Haly is progressing each session as the Hansa in Europe. One score after the whole game should be enough imo.

Edit: But Im glad we are discussion this and that it seems we might change some stuff for the next game.

Well its not required for you to rate everyone. We'll still get plenty of european input from the european players.

My only issue would be the numbering system itself. As with reviews, putting a number on things... is sometimes incredibly hard. Just doing Very Good, Good, Mediocre, Beginner might be easier to digest and use as a guideline. Like this:

- Beginners can take any country and pick first
- Mediocre can pick any country except the tier 1 countries "England, Austria, Muscovy, Ottomans, Castille" and pick 2nd
- good players pick anything except tier 1/2 (tier 1 + portugal, aragon, burgundy, poland, mamluks..) and pick 3rd
- very good players can take anything except tier 1-3 (tier 1+2 + morocco, viyajanagar, brandenburg, norway or worse)

Obviously, the very good players shouldnt be left with only 1 province minors, so tier 4 still needs to include "decently playable" nations, but that was my thought atm.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Well its not required for you to rate everyone. We'll still get plenty of european input from the european players.

My only issue would be the numbering system itself. As with reviews, putting a number on things... is sometimes incredibly hard. Just doing Very Good, Good, Mediocre, Beginner might be easier to digest and use as a guideline. Beginners can take any country and pick first, Mediocre can pick any country except the tier 1 countries "England, Austria, Muscovy, Ottomans, Castille" and pick 2nd, good players pick anything except tier 1/2 (tier 1 + portugal, aragon, burgundy, poland, mamluks..) and pick 3rd (morocco, viyajanagar, brandenburg, norway) and so on.

Obviously, the very good players shouldnt be left with only 1 province minors, so tier 4 still needs to include "decently playable" nations, but that was my thought atm.

Equally, how do you average those, though? If someone thinks someone else was Good, and another Beginner, do you make them Mediocre?

EDIT: Also Burgundy is a T1 start, definitely. Excellent NIs, easy expansion, super-wealthy, no way it's comparable to Portugal or Aragon.

 

[Toma]

Equally, how do you average those, though? If someone thinks someone else was Good, and another Beginner, do you make them Mediocre?

EDIT: Also Burgundy is a T1 start, definitely. Excellent NIs, easy expansion, super-wealthy, no way it's comparable to Portugal or Aragon.

Yes, Good and beginner equals mediocre. If its right on the 0.5 edge, they can move to the better tier (like very good and beginner would count as good).

And yeah, thats why we should discuss the country tiers here to get a decently agreeable list.

 

[Kabouter]

Well its not required for you to rate everyone. We'll still get plenty of european input from the european players.

My only issue would be the numbering system itself. As with reviews, putting a number on things... is sometimes incredibly hard. Just doing Very Good, Good, Mediocre, Beginner might be easier to digest and use as a guideline. Like this:

- Beginners can take any country and pick first
- Mediocre can pick any country except the tier 1 countries "England, Austria, Muscovy, Ottomans, Castille" and pick 2nd
- good players pick anything except tier 1/2 (tier 1 + portugal, aragon, burgundy, poland, mamluks..) and pick 3rd
- very good players can take anything except tier 1-3 (tier 1+2 + morocco, viyajanagar, brandenburg, norway or worse)

Obviously, the very good players shouldnt be left with only 1 province minors, so tier 4 still needs to include "decently playable" nations, but that was my thought atm.

Yeah, it shouldn't just be Albania, Chimu or Ryukyu. Well, except maybe for mgo.

 

[Toma]

Yeah, it shouldn't just be Albania, Chimu or Ryukyu. Well, except maybe for mgo.

Probably would be good to start with a list of countries that are actually playable and sort of endurable choices and use that as the bottom line for the country rating. What are the worst countries that could still be used in an MP game?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Probably would be good to start with a list of countries that are actually playable and sort of endurable choices and use that as the bottom line for the country rating. What are the worst countries that could still be used in an MP game?

Brittany, perhaps? It's just about playable in MP if you rush Ireland and colonize, but I wouldn't be quick to recommend it. If you stay RM'd to France and Allied, they usually leave you alone, especially if you find stronger allies, and you are in a prime position to pounce if they fuck up.

 

[fanboi]

Guys I have worked the formula out when choosing nation since you make it so hard.

Formula:

A^2 * (E*(D+C) / H + G * (I*23) - J * D + B^2 = X


A = Points during the first 100 years
B = Points during the last 100 years
C = Average number of solider dead in the first battle
D = Number of sexual encounters Morfeo have had during our EU4 sessions
E = Number of sexual rejections Morfeo have encountered during our EU4 sessions
F = The amount of times Kabouter picks the wrong nation
G = The amount of tech KingSnake is behind rest
H = A
I = The average post on GAF during Christmas
J = Number of Dreams you had about me
X = your Point

Now you take a note and write down the number that X is and put in your anus. Then you divide this by the amount of days it takes to come out again.

This is your final score.

The one that get the lowest will chose first.

Easy.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Guys I have worked the formula out when choosing nation since you make it so hard.

Formula:

A^2 * (E*(D+C) / H + G * (I*23) - J * D + B^2 = X


A = Points during the first 100 years
B = Points during the last 100 years
C = Average number of solider dead in the first battle
D = Number of sexual encounters Morfeo have had during our EU4 sessions
E = Number of sexual rejections Morfeo have encountered during our EU4 sessions
F = The amount of times Kabouter picks the wrong nation
G = The amount of tech KingSnake is behind rest
H = A
I = The average post on GAF during Christmas
J = Number of Dreams you had about me
X = your Point

Now you take a note and write down the number that X is and put in your anus. Then you divide this by the amount of days it takes to come out again.

This is your final score.

The one that get the lowest will chose first.

Easy.

But everyone will have 0 points because the equation is 0 at the point D = 0...

 

[fanboi]

But everyone will have 0 points because the equation is 0 at the point D = 0...

 

[Toma]

But everyone will have 0 points because the equation is 0 at the point D = 0...

Its a sum, so one part of the equation being 0 doesnt make the sum 0.

 

[Kabouter]

Quick and dirty start to a list of country ratings. Feel free to add to the list or say I'm an idiot who doesn't understand the game and change the ratings to non-bullshit ones.

Note specifically for fanboi, this is not a complete list of all countries that should be rated. It can and should be added to

Totally unsure:
- Hordes

5/10 (or notable nations below)
- Until Paradox unfucks ROW countries, literally anything below Muslim tech that also can't reform into Muslim tech via decisions and what not, but would have to westernize.
- Najd
- Tunisia
- Norway?
- Bosnia
- Serbia
- Byzantium
- Haasa
- Granada
- Liège
- Georgia

6/10
- All HRE countries not specified as having a higher grade or lower grade
- Novgorod
- Algeria
- Morocco
- Livonian Order

7/10
- Yemen
- Oman
- Hedjaz
- Papal State
- Qara Qoyunlu
- Naples


7.5/10
- Teutonic Order
- Bavaria
- Hungary
- The Hansa
- Venice

8/10
- Denmark
- Portugal

8.5/10
- Timurids
- Sweden
- Aragon
- The Mamluks

9/10
- Brandenburg (Best ideas.)
- Burgundy
- Poland
- England

10/10
- Ottoman Empire
- Castile
- France
- Muscovy
- Austria

 

[fanboi]

Its a sum, so one part of the equation being 0 doesnt make the sum 0.

It is such a huge 0, you could even call it a vacuum, so it transcend space and time and over rules all math logic and make the whole equation 0.

You can say we just created a black hole.

 

[Morfeo]

Also, we all know that is false. The problem is rather that D will be so hard to measure (for being so high) that it will be really hard to calculate it all.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Its a sum, so one part of the equation being 0 doesnt make the sum 0.

I know that, but the joke isn't as funny otherwise. Also, it creates bad incentives - we could artificially increase our scores by having frequent sex with Morfeo.

 

[Toma]

I know that, but the joke isn't as funny otherwise. Also, it creates bad incentives - we could artificially increase our scores by having frequent sex with Morfeo.

If a joke doesnt make sense, dont make the joke. The equation is still perfectly usable though.

 

[fanboi]

If a joke doesnt make sense, dont make the joke. The equation is still perfectly usable though.

So... have you put it up your anus yet?

EDIT: OH I TRY TO HELP AND WHAT DO I GET THANKS KAB

 

[Toma]

So... have you put it up your anus yet?

10/10, would anus again.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Byzantium is hella not 5/10 in multi-player. You will get fucking wrekt by AI Ottomans 3 games in 4 without other player intervention. Even single-player Byzantium has a load of pot luck involved.

 

[Toma]

Byzantium is hella not 5/10 in multi-player. You will get fucking wrekt by AI Ottomans 3 games in 4 without other player intervention. Even single-player Byzantium has a load of pot luck involved.

5/10 or 1/10 doesnt really matter. Its only important to have a category with 5/10 and below countries.

 

[Kabouter]

Byzantium is hella not 5/10 in multi-player. You will get fucking wrekt by AI Ottomans 3 games in 4 without other player intervention. Even single-player Byzantium has a load of pot luck involved.

"or notable nations below"
The Roman empire is notable, and I agree is in no way 5/10, but is below 5/10 .

 

[Morfeo]

Must say I love the turn of events after Fanbois post. Anyways, I think your list is good Kab, but why not have England at the highest tier?

 

[Toma]

Must say I love the turn of events after Fanbois post. Anyways, I think your list is good Kab, but why not have England at the highest tier?

I definitely would put england in there as well. Strong navy, easy colonization and easy entry into scandinavia.

 

[Kabouter]

Must say I love the turn of events after Fanbois post. Anyways, I think your list is good Kab, but why not have England at the highest tier?

- They're almost certainly going to lose their continental stuff, especially if France is player-controlled
- England itself is much poorer and less manpower rich than the other countries area.
- Expanding into Europe again after being booted from France will generally mean either attacking Scandinavia (poor) or the HRE (tough). I wouldn't have been able to do it last game without fanboi's help.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

- They're almost certainly going to lose their continental stuff, especially if France is player-controlled
- England itself is much poorer and less manpower rich than the other countries area.
- Expanding into Europe again after being booted from France will generally mean either attacking Scandinavia (poor) or the HRE (tough). I wouldn't have been able to do it last game without fanboi's help.

Doesn't really make them bad, per se. I like to think of England as the troll's nation - you take sides almost arbitrarily in wars and just blockade people with your enormous navy, laughing in the knowledge that you can't touch this.

 

[Kabouter]

Doesn't really make them bad, per se. I like to think of England as the troll's nation - you take sides almost arbitrarily in wars and just blockade people with your enormous navy, laughing in the knowledge that you can't touch this.

It doesn't make them bad, it just makes them non-godlike like those others are. A 9/10 is not low.

 

[Haly]

I'd bump Hansa down one tier so it can chill with Bavaria and friends. The nation itself might be strong, but as far as I can tell, minor powers in the HRE are kind of fucked at the moment. The mechanics are too stacked against them to do anything. Maybe put Venice at 6/10.

 

[Kabouter]

I'd bump Hansa down one tier so it can chill with Bavaria and friends. The nation itself might be strong, but as far as I can tell, minor powers in the HRE are kind of fucked at the moment. The mechanics are too stacked against them to do anything.

Well, I think Bavaria is weaker than the Hansa despite its base tax because it borders Austria and Bohemia. I am however going to bump the Livonian Order down one notch.

 

[Haly]

It's close, I admit, but compared to the others in 8/10, it doesn't match up.

Portugal just has a much more solid position than Hansa does. Contiguous, zero equally sized rivals, historic protection of an S tier nation, access to the Americas and Africa.

Denmark's start is a bit more precarious than Portugal's but they are pretty much untouchable so long as Norway and Sweden are under their thumb, which is pretty easy to do. Denmark just needs to play the waiting game until Norway and Sweden integrates, that's worth 40-50 years of conquest just for twiddling their thumbs, maybe poking at HRE/Polish lands every now and then.

I don't know about Hungary, it's pretty big but it's bordered by Poland-Lithuania (strong), Austria (super strong), and they quickly border Ottomans (unstoppable).

Having played as Republic minors in both MP games, I'll say this. As a medium-sized trading country, I live or die by the deals I can broker with stronger players. If Mgo didn't team up with me to take out the Ottomans, I would've had to roll over while the Ottomans swept across the Balkans. If Colkate didn't team up with me to break Denmark, Sweden would've integrated and I wouldn't be able to stop Denmark, nor would Austria, because as strong as it is, there was just no way it could fight off every player who wanted a piece of the HRE lands. This is why Brandenburg suddenly became the emperor last session, Austria wound up taking relation hits left and right from getting their shit pushed in.

I think, as far as country ranking in MP goes, the first thing you have to ask is: "How far can a player take this country without relying on the help of other players?" Because MP sees alliances you'd never encounter in SP, you can't evaluate these countries from an SP standpoint. In an SP Hansa game, Austria is guaranteed to expand. As long as Hansa is friendly with Austria, they can expand as well until they're large enough to buck Austria. MP? Between players in the HRE refusing to help Austria and players around the HRE pushing in unhistorically, an AI Austria simply can't keep up. If AI Austria is weak, so becomes minors like Hansa. This is why I feel that the most important thing for any country in an MP game is its agency in its own affairs.

BTW put Mamluks at 8.5.

 

[Kabouter]

You make a good case, adjusted

 

[Haly]

Venice at 7!

 

[Deleted member 125677]

I'd bump Hansa down one tier so it can chill with Bavaria and friends.

Dude, we can chill and be friends anytime

 

[Haly]

We'll chill once you become my vassal.

 

[CloudWolf]

I'd say Livonian Order should be lower than that, unless Poland, Lithuania, Denmark and/or Muscovy are player-controlled and there exist specific rules about not attacking other players for an x amount of time, the Livonian Order is pretty much fucked every time. Sure, it won't get wiped out at game start too often (unlike Novgorod and Morocco 90% of the time), but it's second on the list.

 

[Kabouter]

I'd say Livonian Order should be lower than that, unless Poland, Lithuania, Denmark and/or Muscovy are player-controlled and there exist specific rules about not attacking other players for an x amount of time, the Livonian Order is pretty much fucked every time.

Yeah, the main reason I put it as high as I did was because if a player does succeed as them, they can form Prussia with all its delicious ideas. But I'll bump them down a notch.

 

[mkenyon]

*edit*

disregard

 

[fanboi]

Oh my God.

The watch icon on the iphone is the actual time and it moves!

Jesus.

 

[FACE]

Its a sum, so one part of the equation being 0 doesnt make the sum 0.

Maths is hard.

 

[Haly]

Oh my God.

The watch icon on the iphone is the actual time and it moves!

Jesus.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

Maths is hard.

lol

Oh my God.

The watch icon on the iphone is the actual time and it moves!

Jesus.

Have you made the thread yet?

 

[Fitz]

Damn, looks like you guys have been trying to write a constitution up in here.

 

[Morfeo]

Damn, looks like you guys have been trying to write a constitution up in here.

More or less yeah.

 

[fanboi]

lol



Have you made the thread yet?

Good idea...'

 

[Deleted member 125677]

A = Points during the first 100 years
B = Points during the last 100 years
C = Average number of solider dead in the first battle
D = Number of sexual encounters Morfeo have had during our EU4 sessions
E = Number of sexual rejections Morfeo have encountered during our EU4 sessions
F = The amount of times Kabouter picks the wrong nation
G = The amount of tech KingSnake is behind rest
H = A
I = The average post on GAF during Christmas
J = Number of Dreams you had about me
X = your Point

Now you take a note and write down the number that X is and put in your anus. Then you divide this by the amount of days it takes to come out again.

This is your final score.

The one that get the lowest will chose first.

Easy.

Formula:

A^2 * (E*(D+C) / H + G * (I*23) - J * D + B^2 = X

Even though the jokes was a bit inaccurate and possibly inflicting injuria to Morfeo, this formula can be simplified with D = 0 to:

B^2 = X

So points the last 100 years^2 determines score. Fanboi was right. It's really easy. We can even leave out the ^2 part since it's equal for all and we get points last 100 years = score.

And the anus part.

 

[Morfeo]

Come on, the anus-part is integral to the formula as Toma just showed us.

 

[Mgoblue201]

I was already leaning toward picking either the Livonian Order or Georgia for the next game anyway. I assume everyone would be okay with that. I've even been toying with the idea since Sunday of allowing other players to choose my nation, as long as it isn't something ridiculous like Chimu.

 

[KingSnake]

I was already leaning toward picking either the Livonian Order or Georgia for the next game anyway. I assume everyone would be okay with that. I've even been toying with the idea since Sunday of allowing other players to choose my nation, as long as it isn't something ridiculous like Chimu.

Wallachia.

 

[Kabouter]

I was already leaning toward picking either the Livonian Order or Georgia for the next game anyway. I assume everyone would be okay with that. I've even been toying with the idea since Sunday of allowing other players to choose my nation, as long as it isn't something ridiculous like Chimu.

Kongo. It's doable in SP at least.

Edit: I'm not sure I'd want you to play Livonian Order given their ability to become Prussia . Once you overcome the early years, you'd still just go through the familiar process of domination.