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[nikolino840]

Insert craig meme, sorry 343 if spencer or nadella have modelled and created the textures of halo infinite

 

[Bragr]

While something seems to be up and I don't discount these guys, it's still just two guys on Twitter.

People forget that 343 did a solid job on Halo 4.

 

[ZehDon]

People forget that 343 did a solid job on Halo 4.

Terrible art direction, bad gameplay loop, questionable narrative decisions, and the worst multiplayer in the series. If that's called doing a "solid job", sure, 343i did a "solid job". Curious how you describe their efforts on Halo 5...

 

[REDRZA MWS]

This is one side of the story. MS gave 343 an entire years delay, while skipping launch of their brand new console, that COULD NOT have been easy.

Is it possible MS had to get rid of incompetent employees?

 

[Nydius]

Now that's some grade A hyperbole.

Except it isn't.

You think the inflated number of millions of players were all playing the campaign? They weren't. They aren't. They're playing MP and MP alone. The layoffs that are happening are almost entirely axing the single player side of the studio. Campaigns and single player cost a shit load and that's not where the money is.

Infinite will limp along as a multiplayer only game and any future Halo games will almost certainly be multiplayer only. Because that is where the money is. But go ahead and keep gulping your big cups of liquid copium if it helps you sleep better at night. Xbox fans live in delusionland and refuse to acknowledge reality. I've already pointed out how Microsoft cannot be trusted and they have burned down more properties than you can count, a post you reacted to with laughter. Which only proves you aren't willing to live in reality and have nothing to contribute further to this discussion.

 

[Bragr]

Terrible art direction, bad gameplay loop, questionable narrative decisions, and the worst multiplayer in the series. If that's called doing a "solid job", sure, 343i did a "solid job". Curious how you describe their efforts on Halo 5...

Give me a break. Halo 5 was bad, Halo 4 was passable for a new studio doing Halo.

 

[ZehDon]

Give me a break. Halo 5 was bad, Halo 4 was passable for a new studio doing Halo.

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Halo 4 was passable for a new studio doing Halo.

Halo 4 campaign was great! It was the Multiplayer that stumbled there, imo.

 

[Smoke6]

Not sure I believe it when other MS studios are doing fine. Forza Horizon, Ori, Psychonauts, Flight Sim, Age of Empires, Pentiment, Grounded. I’ll agree that Phil should have cracked down on internal 343 mismanagement much sooner though.

For reals? This gotta be sarcasm right?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

For reals? This gotta be sarcasm right?

sarcasm or total denial.

 

[JackMcGunns]

yea its confirmed, theres some major mismanagement going on in Xbox. this is the most definitive proof you could find

Absolutely! A disgruntled employee who was recently fired is the best source!

 

[Ishma3L]

The awards keep pilling up so I don't believe that.

The paid for ones?

 

[Thirty7ven]

Glad to see devs no longer on the payroll calling MS trash because that’s what they are. Creatives go there to die a slow death.

 

[Hayabusa83]

Their franchises are burnt out husks that lack soul. Compare the original Gears of War trilogy to Gears 4/5. Compare the original Halo Trilogy + Reach and ODST to 343i's offerings. They need to abandon the triple A, assembly line method of creating games. Get people that are passionate about the franchises they are working on. And for the love of God they need to fire Bonnie Ross and Stinkles.

 

[Kokoloko85]

So Xbox devs are now saying this. Its been known for awhile.

But blind fanboys will still want Xbox picking up another publisher with lots of IP too look after when they are firing 343 and bethesda staff lol…. Theres no logical reason to want someone like MS to handle IP’s they didnt create and cant look after when they cant sort their own studios out

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Not looking good at Xbox. What a mess.

 

[gothmog]

So Xbox devs are now saying this. Its been known for awhile.

But blind fanboys will still want Xbox picking up another publisher with lots of IP too look after when they are firing 343 and bethesda staff lol…. Theres no logical reason to want someone like MS to handle IP’s they didnt create and cant look after when they cant sort their own studios out

"Free" games.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Absolutely! A disgruntled employee who was recently fired is the best source!

 

[Klosshufvud]

I mean..Halo Infinite's development, release and support, all the senior ppl that's leaving Playground, the rumors about Fable being rebooted, them hiring outside studios to help develop Perfect Dark while MS has god knows how many internal development studios themselves...the fact that even with all those studios they can go for over a year and half without releasing a single AAA game.

We know this even without those tweets in the OP.

But Phil Spencer is the man that's changing Xbox ...aaaany day now. (he's CEO since 2014 btw...almost a decade now)

Honestly can't help but notice that MS games have taken a nosedive ever since Spencer took charge. Launch Xbone era was the last time I felt some hint of excitement from Xbox first-party games. But I do appreciate all their games being on PC now.

 

[Kokoloko85]

"Free" games.

Yep. They should just work on their own studios and creating new IP’s for “free”. Prove they can handle it

These free games will later on be shite games. I mean Bethesda hasnt released Starfield etc and MS are firing Bethesda staff. I thought Bethesda was independently run?
This model will effect their future “free” games. Bethesda will be effected already now

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Honestly can't help but notice that MS games have taken a nosedive ever since Spencer took charge. Launch Xbone era was the last time I felt some hint of excitement from Xbox first-party games. But I do appreciate all their games being on PC now.

People trash the Xbox One release...but in terms of games it was so much better.

 

[Scotty W]

I feel that Batman the animated series was green lit sometime after the box office success of the 1989 Batman movie. Then in 92 they released Batman Returns and then that same year the animated series came out for the first time and believe me the kids ate that shit up.
And now for the twist, amazingly in that same year (1992) Marvel releases X-Men the animated series the same year as the Batman animated series
And to my knowledge I think the Punisher is the only movie Marvel attempted before Brian Singers X-men trilogy.

‘X-Men’ at 25: The Unlikely Story of the Animated Hit No Network Wanted

The influential Fox Kids cartoon only hit the air after a studio exec bet her career on it, with the show going on to prove the Marvel Universe "had commercial value far beyond what anybody estimated."

www.hollywoodreporter.com

An Oral History of ‘Batman: The Animated Series’

The show that defined the Dark Knight for a generation, in the words of its creators and stars.

www.vulture.com

Still the best adaptations

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Wasn't Halo in development for like 6-7 years? And even after all that time the game was released massively unfinished? Seems to me that these devs are given way too much time and money to make these kinds of mistakes. MS owns more studios than Nintendo or Sony yet they basically skipped an entire year last year. Their biggest game for this year is one they bought half (or more) finished. What are all of these people working on and where is the urgency to ship some shit?

Think the problem is that every game has become urgent. Which means more and more time and more and more pressure.

I bet Microsoft canceled a slew of games because they weren't shaping up to be GOTY type games and they were afraid of getting slagged by the fanbase.

That's not sustainable.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

What exactly you expect them to do actually? Chain devs to desks? If they would not allow them to buy back their company they would left and create new studio with money that they had to pay MS.

I love the hyperbole and deflection.

Obviously, the answer is fostering a relationship and maintaining good standards between the companies.

Maybe start by not forcing them to work on just Halo... They could have pushed Halo to another studio and had Bungie do their thing. They could have built 343 AND kept Bungie...

 

[gimmmick]

yea its confirmed, theres some major mismanagement going on in Xbox. this is the most definitive proof you could find

And people desperately think series X will reign supreme over this generation.

 

[sinnergy]

And people desperately think series X will reign supreme over this generation.

I think not everyone thinks that , besides a couple of hardcore . What most do think , they will do better this generation, and they are , but not on all accounts.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

The whole DC vs Marvel IN MY OPINION has to do with the kids. Even as a kid in the 80s I always felt marvel was more for the kids and DC is more adult oriented.
Fast forward to the movies. This Marvel continuation story has been going on for over 10 years now.
So all you kids that started to watch these movies in 2010 and you were 10 (you know who you are on this forum) now your 23 and of course you’ve been following the whole storyline for the past 12 years plus the writing is easy and cohesive for younger people to follow along with. Remember all my opinion.

As for the leadership at Microsoft your spot on success always starts from the top.

lol - In 2010 I've been 20 years old. The MCU is way better then the DCU (movies and series that have been made in the last 20 years). At least overall.
DC movies/series have been all other the place. Some were fucking amazing others pure trash.
Marvel movies and series have been consistently okay. Some I thought were even great/amazing.

 

[Havoc2049]

Terrible art direction, bad gameplay loop, questionable narrative decisions, and the worst multiplayer in the series. If that's called doing a "solid job", sure, 343i did a "solid job". Curious how you describe their efforts on Halo 5...

Halo 4 is easily 343's best, most feature complete and most competent work, across both multiplayer and single player. It was also the last M rated Halo game with an adult storyline and had the best Cortana.

Halo 4 launched with campaign co-op. It had a full multiplayer suite with 4v4 arena style maps, medium sized maps and BTB maps at launch. Forge and theater mode at launch. It had everything that fans complained that games like Halo 5 and Infinite launched without. It also launched on time and wasn't a bug filled mess.

Even though Halo 4 wasn't a GAAS game, its post launch support put Infinite, which is/was supposed to be a GAAS game to shame. Halo 4 had two large map packs within the first six months after release. Halo 4 also had single player/co-op campaign content as well, with the 10 episode Spartan Ops missions.

 

[Banjo64]

They’ve got us living of pure hopium and they’ve done that for years now.

Look at this from the Xbox sub - posted exactly a year ago today. Xbox proceeded to release no major games.



It’s all talk and it’s got to the point where it just washes over me now.

 

[Umbasaborne]

They’ve got us living of pure hopium and they’ve done that for years now.

Look at this from the Xbox sub - posted exactly a year ago today. Xbox proceeded to release no major games.



It’s all talk and it’s got to the point where it just washes over me now.

Thats nice, wheres perfect dark which was announced more than 3 years ago, where is hell blade that was announced over 3 years ago. Where is avowed that was announced almost 3 years ago, where is everwild that was announced over 3 years ago, where is state of decay 3 that was announced almost 3 years ago?

Its just hard for me to feel any confidence in their line up when their games are announced 6 years before they are released or cancelled. Add that most of their announced titles have rumors of development issues and its just hard to feel good about the brand right now

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Halo 4 campaign was great! It was the Multiplayer that stumbled there, imo.

Agreed. It might be my favorite campaign in the series. I think Guardians is my least favorite. It’s weird how far apart they are in quality.

Infinites campaign is great, despite a pretty meh narrative imho and a lack of variety in the setting. But the core gameplay loop, gunplay, and sandbox are all top notch.

 

[Stare-Bear]

Phil Spencer should’ve been ousted the second he launched a new console with no first party software. Not even an “astrobots” like demo or something.

And he thinks he can manage Bethesda and Activision? Get your current studios in order and release a few games before making huge acquisitions.

 

[HTK]

One thing they complain about which is MS-wide apparently and might be an actual concrete problem is outsourcing work on MP to temporary hires and then firing all this people in 18 months for some financial reason which I am too lazy to look up. Alluded to here:

It could suck when most of game's development is in the hands of contractors who get kicked out of the door with all their expertise - all while you desperately need to produce new content for your MP game.

So Microsoft used to hire contractors and just keep them under contract for years and years without benefits or converting them into Full Time.

People were pissed so a law came out that MS/Others can have a contractors up to 18 months and then either convert them to full time or let them go. If they let them go they can come back after a certain period of time, I think 12 months.

What it comes down to is the contractors are treated like second hand citizens even though they contribute a lot of the work on these games.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

So Microsoft used to hire contractors and just keep them under contract for years and years without benefits or converting them into Full Time.

People were pissed so a law came out that MS/Others can have a contractors up to 18 months and then either convert them to full time or let them go. If they let them go they can come back after a certain period of time, I think 12 months.

What it comes down to is the contractors are treated like second hand citizens even though they contribute a lot of the work on these games.

I think Microsoft struggles to recruit FTEs with a lack of prestige games to work on.

All these studios are in the same locations, so getting people to join your company is really an ordeal.

Would you rather work on God of War and get that on your resume or Hell Blade?

Despite spending 80 billion dollars in just two years, Microsoft hasn't really wanted to spend money on internal development and it just caught up with them. They were kind of meandering along, but all of a sudden Sony started putting serious money into AAA titles and then used existing assets to get games out fast

Spider-Man Miles Morales
TLOUP1
God of War Ragnarok
GT7
Horizon Forbidden West
Demon's Souls
Rift Apart
Uncharted Lost of Thieves

All of these games were built off of previous game engines/assets or were remasters/remakes. The only "big" game that hasn't from sony was Returnal.

This let Sony continue these franchises quickly but build a stopgap for a game like Spider-Man 2.

They'll probably use the GoW2018/Ragnarok engine to remake God of War 1-3 in time for the Amazon show.

 

[Heisenberg007]

They’ve got us living of pure hopium and they’ve done that for years now.

Look at this from the Xbox sub - posted exactly a year ago today. Xbox proceeded to release no major games.



It’s all talk and it’s got to the point where it just washes over me now.

Wow, this Reddit post is so much cringe.

Also, 90% of the IPs are acquired or to-be-acquired with 0 exclusive games on Xbox so far. Who thought name-dropping external multiplatform IPs would paint a good picture when you have 20 years of history and presence in the industry.

 

[Heisenberg007]

So Microsoft used to hire contractors and just keep them under contract for years and years without benefits or converting them into Full Time.

People were pissed so a law came out that MS/Others can have a contractors up to 18 months and then either convert them to full time or let them go. If they let them go they can come back after a certain period of time, I think 12 months.

What it comes down to is the contractors are treated like second hand citizens even though they contribute a lot of the work on these games.

This contractor situation for tax benefits is actually one of the biggest reasons why XGS struggles so much. If they fix this, a lot of their issues would go away.

There will still be shortcomings and they won't be able to produce games on the same level of PlayStation because they don't have the shared production pipelines setup that PS has, but it will still be a noticeable improvement. Microsoft is too greedy, however, to hire full-time employees and let go of this musical chair of contractors.

Game development is an endeavor that takes more 4-6 years of time. You need employees that stay at least double the time in one studio so (1) they can consistently develop a game, and (2) take that learning, become more efficient and effective, and apply that knowledge for at least one more game at the same studio.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Think it's pretty obvious there's issues and Microsoft needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and do what ever they need to do to get these studios putting out decent products in as best working environment as possible for their staff. Putting great leadership at the top of these studios.

Time to step up Phil and prove you are the legend they say you are...lol

 

[Banjo64]

Wow, this Reddit post is so much cringe.

Also, 90% of the IPs are acquired or to-be-acquired with 0 exclusive games on Xbox so far. Who thought name-dropping external multiplatform IPs would paint a good picture when you have 20 years of history and presence in the industry.

I know. And it got 122 awards. Cringe is the word.

 

[HTK]

I hope MS/Xbox gets better, only time they really competed was with the Xbox 360 and they made that console very compelling. They were in a perfect position to do well again but that presentation with Don Mattric was the most tone deaf thing I’ve ever seen. All that work destroyed in one preso.

I hope moving forward they deliver.

 

[Orta]

Bad workman blames his tools etc

 

[Heisenberg007]

I hope MS/Xbox gets better, only time they really competed was with the Xbox 360 and they made that console very compelling. They were in a perfect position to do well again but that presentation with Don Mattric was the most tone deaf thing I’ve ever seen. All that work destroyed in one preso.

I hope moving forward they deliver.

It's not really the result of that presentation, to be honest. It is what came after that.

Xbox One was $100 more expensive than PS4 and Xbox 360, but it still started very well. It was even outpacing Xbox 360 by the first 6 months by 60% and was pacing to hit 100 million console sales! And Xbox One also beat PS4 in NPD three months in a row.

The problems came after that, when Phil Spencer took over, gutted the first-party studios and game development, and just stopped releasing games altogether. The mismanagement of studios began there, and that's when the downfall began. That's when the gap b/w PS4 and Xbox One grew wider.

People bash Don Mattrick -- to an extent, rightly so -- but he did bring a ton of high-quality first-party games on Xbox. A lot of the Xbox 360 success can be attributed to that.

 

[aries_71]

Halo 4 is easily 343's best, most feature complete and most competent work, across both multiplayer and single player. It was also the last M rated Halo game with an adult storyline and had the best Cortana.

Halo 4 launched with campaign co-op. It had a full multiplayer suite with 4v4 arena style maps, medium sized maps and BTB maps at launch. Forge and theater mode at launch. It had everything that fans complained that games like Halo 5 and Infinite launched without. It also launched on time and wasn't a bug filled mess.

Even though Halo 4 wasn't a GAAS game, its post launch support put Infinite, which is/was supposed to be a GAAS game to shame. Halo 4 had two large map packs within the first six months after release. Halo 4 also had single player/co-op campaign content as well, with the 10 episode Spartan Ops missions.

Perfectly described. I wonder what happened between Halo 4 and now. It’s clear to me that some important key people wasn’t there anymore.

 

[The Tourmaline Gorilla]

Now MS gives their devs creative freedom and are now being accused of not tamping down on them enough. Doesn't look like they can win.

Indeed. Of all the big companies, MS is often praised by devs as being the one that allows and promotes the most creative freedom. But, creative freedom without proper management and vision results in this. It results in the mess that was 343i. A lot of people want to stand behind 343i, but I'm not one of them. They have been failures, from inception. Halo 4 might be the most solid release they've had, and all other games since then have been a step down...

I honestly can't wrap my mind around why it took this long to really shake shit up at 343, and make some serious changes, and restructure. These devs blaming management might have a point - it by all come down to shoddy decision making and piss poor management, with zero accountability. I really don't understand how you can be tasked with running one of the biggest IPs in gaming history, which happens to be Microsoft's flagship title, under deliver and under perform with every new release, and still manage to be given chance after chance, and worse, keep your job. How the fuck has Bonnie Ross been there for so long? I and many others have been seeing the shit pool that has been 343 for years, solely by measuring the merits of their work, but Phil and other higher-ups weren't seeing it? How many chances was 343 given? And they've consistently failed, with every release.

This will sound incredibly rude and perhaps will be out of place, but I really have to wonder if Bonnie had some "other skills" that kept her in the position she was in. I have to speculate, because she really never deserved to be there, for that long.

What a sad state of affairs. And honestly, this doesn't inspire much confidence in the other studios MS now owns, or even the ABK deal, going forward. Get. Your. Shit. Together. Microsoft.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

This contractor situation for tax benefits is actually one of the biggest reasons why XGS struggles so much. If they fix this, a lot of their issues would go away.

There will still be shortcomings and they won't be able to produce games on the same level of PlayStation because they don't have the shared production pipelines setup that PS has, but it will still be a noticeable improvement. Microsoft is too greedy, however, to hire full-time employees and let go of this musical chair of contractors.

Game development is an endeavor that takes more 4-6 years of time. You need employees that stay at least double the time in one studio so (1) they can consistently develop a game, and (2) take that learning, become more efficient and effective, and apply that knowledge for at least one more game at the same studio.

What talent do you think wants to work there? Knowing that they could be laid off anytime GamePass underperforms and on franchises that don't build out their resumes?

Outside of Halo, what Microsoft product are people desperate to work on? Imagine putting 6 years into a game and it just goes on GamePass. Maybe you get paid out bonuses based on internal metrics, but who knows when they would come.

I really think Microsoft is in trouble and I think they knew that and that's why they are trying to buy Activision. If that fails... I think we're in for a rough few years.

 

[Bonfires Down]

Now MS gives their devs creative freedom and are now being accused of not tamping down on them enough. Doesn't look like they can win.

They already are winning with this being the fastest selling Xbox despite only two major exclusives and heavy supply constraints. That they aren’t outselling the PS5 or whatever is irrelevant. Not even the most ardent Xbox fans expected that to happen.

 

[Three]

Their franchises are burnt out husks that lack soul. Compare the original Gears of War trilogy to Gears 4/5. Compare the original Halo Trilogy + Reach and ODST to 343i's offerings. They need to abandon the triple A, assembly line method of creating games. Get people that are passionate about the franchises they are working on. And for the love of God they need to fire Bonnie Ross and Stinkles.

The original gears of war were made by Epic, the Halo trilogy by Bungie. They bought the IPs and set up studios to create sequels. AAA is fine but they need to back up some new IPs and studios that are creating something they believe in not something given to them. When the creators themselves no longer want to make the thing they created maybe it's time to create something new. Bonnie already stepped down by the way.

 

[Thirty7ven]

They keep buying IPs and they keep losing the talent. Shows where their priorities lie.

 

[hyperbertha]

so what if we can't make games, we still publish like a motherfucker.

 

[HTK]

It's not really the result of that presentation, to be honest. It is what came after that.

Xbox One was $100 more expensive than PS4 and Xbox 360, but it still started very well. It was even outpacing Xbox 360 by the first 6 months by 60% and was pacing to hit 100 million console sales! And Xbox One also beat PS4 in NPD three months in a row.

The problems came after that, when Phil Spencer took over, gutted the first-party studios and game development, and just stopped releasing games altogether. The mismanagement of studios began there, and that's when the downfall began. That's when the gap b/w PS4 and Xbox One grew wider.

People bash Don Mattrick -- to an extent, rightly so -- but he did bring a ton of high-quality first-party games on Xbox. A lot of the Xbox 360 success can be attributed to that.

Very true, if that presentation wasn’t that big of a disaster maybe Phil never gets a chance?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Phil Spencer should’ve been ousted the second he launched a new console with no first party software. Not even an “astrobots” like demo or something.

Phil Spencer should have been ousted for launching a console that was so popular you couldn't buy it on store shelves for 2+ years?

Me thinks first party software just a wee bit overrated yeah?