Yeah my parents also told me this an hour ago. Looting everywhere it seems.
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Failed military coup in Turkey; Erdogan promising swift reprisal
- Thread starter nynt9
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Yeah my parents also told me this an hour ago. Looting everywhere it seems.
From what I've been reading there is uncertainty as to whether Gulen is a US citizen or a resident alien (green card holder.) In either case some legal experts are saying that Obama doesn't really have the authority to make any such decision and that it would be up to a judge. Gulen has legal rights and if an attempt were made to extradite him it would mean a long legal battle. Edrogan is overplaying his hand if he thinks the US government will just hand him over. Even if they were willing, they can't.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I really how much you can "violate an airspace" if you're actually allies.
Whatever the case, I'd like to get the NATO troops out of there ASAP and cut off all relationships with them until Erdogan is gone.
They've begun digging the grave, it's time to let them lie in it.
DudeWithNoName
Member
If the Obama administration, and by proxy a potential Clinton administration bend to this guy, Trump walks away with the election. Bank on it.
ClosingADoor
Member
And I'm sure the appropriate NATO commanders are on top of the situation there trying to figure it out. Just flying over troops is not a good solution. Take a bit of time and try to find a good solution instead.
You don't just cut ties that easily with a 60+ year ally. They need to take their time and see what the next steps will be in the next weeks and months.
The problem is one refugee costs the German tax payer roughly 1000 per month + all the expenses for registration and sending those back who don't have a right to stay + increased security meassures.
Something started this huge wave of refugees coming to Germany, it got out of hand and Merkel has never adressed the issue - the small Eastern European countries did when they closed their borders. Not one single German would have had a problem with 500.000 refugess from Syria who went through a clean registration process, but what we've got instead is madness. Was it so hard for her to step in front of a camera saying "Sorry, but we're full now". That's the whole issue! Was she intending to invite the whole 3rd world into her country? I don't think so, but that's where things where heading. So she tries to correct her mistake by going to one of the shadiest guys in the world? I respect your arguments, still what has been done here looks like a mistake and tragedy of historic proportions.
It's more than just Erdogan. He's but the figure head of that country's pan-Islamic sentiment that has engulfed the Middle East for the past 10 years.
I think this is extremely likely. There were reports of a probable coup months ago apparently.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
What you're describing would be ISIL's wet dream. While Erdogan is there he'll basically turn a blind eye to their fighters streaming into Europe through Turkey.
At least he was beginning to take the threat seriously and made overtures to Russia and Israel.
How many years is enough time to give Turkey?
It's not like I'm upset he's keeping some people confined to an airbase, I'm not. His government is descending further and further into an authoritarian regime. I assume if we had any leverage at all over them that such a slide would have slowed or halted it but it just continues to pick up pace.
Keeping them around is just as shortsighted, I mean, we need/want the bases now not necessarily 50 years in the future. Granted, I know the other stuff, shipping lanes, gas pipelines, relatively strong military for the region, I got it. But if we're keeping someone a strategic ally for those reasons once they start threatening to hold those things from us they're no different than not being an ally.
#2 looks like what happened. Military purges/replacements were imminent.
ClosingADoor
Member
Sure, but that should be figured out in the time to come. Any decision like that can not be taken lightly for exactly the reasons you name there.
Let's say we dump them out of NATO - how exactly, since there is no clear protocol for that? - then who fills the void and with who is Turkey going to align itself more? Russia probably. Not really a good idea.
The whole situation is a mess, but NATO is a defense alliance. We can keep them in and work with them on those grounds, while still putting pressure on them in others.
There's nothing to pressure left. He rounds up anyone and want to put the death penalty back into effect. How do you pressure a stranglehold in which if you cave you get killed?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
dude
The opposite, reports are that a couple helicopters flew by but nothing exploded. But who cares about facts, right?
Four_Chamber
Member
Easily the most sane post in this thread
Every other post is so hyperbolic its hard to take seriously.
ClosingADoor
Member
The same way we always do. Through diplomatic and economic means.
At the moment, Turkey is a mess. But it is mostly an internal mess. So any action from foreign actors need to be careful. Otherwise we have learned nothing from Iraq, Libya, Egypt and Syria.
We're talking about Turkey here, not Saudi Arabia.
Turkey as is was founded by Mustafa Ataturk is a democracy and Erdogan is a dictator, Putin style, who should not be in power based on Turkey's constitution. The coup or failed coup by the military is justified in Turkey's constitution if religious fanatics take over.
Believe it was immediately debunked.
But guys, DEMOCRACY!
Yeah but it's not a internal mess when you refuse to let your allies enter/leave the bases, surrounding them and cutting off their power.
Diplomacy probably won't work or take years to get anywhere.
I'm not saying we invade them, but surely pulling out and starting to cut our ties with them seems reasonable. We can't say "we support these" while our own soldiers are held hostage by them.
For a defensive alliance to work there must be trust. Trust and equal minded and goal set governments. There's little if any of that the way they keep moving now, and it's only looking to get worse.
ClosingADoor
Member
It is not reasonable to make those long term and very big changes within 24 hours after an event like this.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Yep.
Allies don't hold your military hostage over an extradition demand. Even for political showmanship.
Wasn't the 1982 constitution introduced by a military junta after the coup in 1980?
Yeah but it's not responsible to hold allies hostage over political gain to flex muscles.
Not sure to be honest, I was going from a quote earlier in the thread which I presumed to be from Ataturk's government and constitution.
ClosingADoor
Member
Agreed. The situation should be resolved as soon as possible and then we need to figure out where to go from there.
Talk like this to just kick Turkey out of NATO and fly in more troops to free the base are not necessary at the moment.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
I seriously fear for the day his attentions turn to Cyprus and Greece, both of whom have disputes Turkey of oil and gas reserves.
Atatürk, the general?
They are in the EU, they should be safe.
Yeah but a alliance don't function when you take them hostage for your personal gain.
There's not much else to say.
petran79
Banned
Israel is part of that game in the region too, so fear not
If he was to invade Greece and Germany/France/UK/Italy wouldn't intervene that would mean the end of the EU and Europe as we know it.
FWIW I'm sure he'll be focusing on bending Turkey to his will for the foreseeable future before hey pays attention to other stuff.
I don't even think they're keeping them hostage really.
Sad Affleck
Member
I live in Greece and my brother lives in Cyprus. I seriously fear as well that things are going to get worse as Turkey is slowly turning into a dictatorship. What is more disconcerting is that NATO seems happy to bow to Erdogan's every whim.
He was much more than a general.
No way in hell he invades Greece or even tries to.
They effectively are. Not at gun point but surrounding them, cutting their power, not allowing anyone to enter or leave the premises and not allowing them to fly or land.
You are stuck there against your will, and he demanded US to give him Gulen if there is to be any cooperation between the nations.
Frozenprince
Banned
Erdogan would not be stupid enough to try and use American lives as bargaining chips.
Egypt Blocks UN Security Council Condemnation of Coup in Turkey
Dude El-Sisi what are you doing, hope this doesn't spiral out of control.
Dude El-Sisi what are you doing, hope this doesn't spiral out of control.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
If Turkey invaded Greece, I would expect the rest of the world to loudly condemn it and not lift a damn finger to help.
I doubt Erdogan would do that though, given the internal problems he has to deal with right now. There are more pressing things to deal with than territorial expansionism.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Russia is more likely to come to Greece and Cyprus' aid in a military conflict with Turkey than any of the EU countries.
Greece has a great insurance policy -- If Turkey invades Greece, the Germans and French won't get their money back.
ClosingADoor
Member
Well, the guy got in power after a coup. So condemning this one would undermine his position.
Ether_Snake
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The parroted statements by Western leaders to support the democratically-elected government is laughable considering Erdogan said democracy is irrelevant. Just who exactly do they think they are asking people to support?
Lol what did you think he would do. These things are useless anyway.
I tend to agree although we don't know what his endgame is.
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