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[Branduil]

aka: "i only like democracy when it goes my way"

Pretty much

You heard it here first, if you don't support theocratic dictators or ignorant xenophobes destroying their own country, it turns out you're the real enemy of democracy.

 

[univariate]

It's hard to believe that a single FaceTime call turned it all around.

sums up 2016 nicely though.

 

[Frustrated_me]

You heard it here first, if you don't support theocratic dictators or ignorant xenophobes destroying their own country, it turns out you're the real enemy of democracy.

It's like they just don't want to understand huh? Like they truly DONT get it.

 

[kittenbreath]

A list of things that are true:

-Erdogan is a democratically elected leader
-He has ruled in an increasingly undemocratic and authoritarian way
-Military coups are undemocratic
-The coup plotters attempted to depose Erdogan, but also bombed the Turkish parliament, attempted to suppress the media, and killed civilians
-All Turkish political parties opposed the coup, including the opposition
-Erdogan will now take advantage of the opportunity that the coup has presented to further consolidate his power and crack down on his enemies

Any attempt to construct a narrative or interpretation of these events that has only a single villian necessarily means denying at least some of the above.

Sometimes there is no lesser evil. If you're going to be angry, be angry for the people of Turkey, who had nothing to gain (and now are at risk of losing everything) from these events regardless of the victor.

 

[Nesotenso]

You heard it here first, if you don't support theocratic dictators or ignorant xenophobes destroying their own country, it turns out you're the real enemy of democracy.

no, but supporting a coup somehow makes a champion of democracy.

 

[Lead]

This is awful, I hope this doesn't blow up into a state of civil war. Europe could be looking at another massive wave of refugees that we simply can't take in...

 

[TheRealTalker]

You heard it here first, if you don't support theocratic dictators or ignorant xenophobes destroying their own country, it turns out you're the real enemy of democracy.

your dodging the question here

the so called coup attacked civilians

is that fine since they all came against the coup?

 

[Azzanadra]

Y'know we have been talking a lot about Erdogan here but.... what's the death toll here? Surely by the end we are looking at at least 100?

Some year, goddamn 2016.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

You heard it here first, if you don't support theocratic dictators or ignorant xenophobes destroying their own country, it turns out you're the real enemy of democracy.

If people vote for a dictator and are willing to face tanks to support him then that's on the population.

That's democracy, the people have spoken

Didn't you just associate this with brexit?

 

[Macam]

A list of things that are true:

-Erdogan is a democratically elected leader
-He has ruled in an increasingly undemocratic and authoritarian way
-Military coups are undemocratic
-The coup plotters attempted to depose Erdogan, but also bombed the Turkish parliament, attempted to suppress the media, and killed civilians
-All Turkish political parties opposed the coup, including the opposition
-Erdogan will now take advantage of the opportunity that the coup has presented to further consolidate his power and crack down on his enemies

Any attempt to construct a narrative or interpretation of these events that has only a single villian necessarily means denying at least some of the above.

Sometimes there is no lesser evil. If you're going to be angry, be angry for the people of Turkey, who had nothing to gain (and now are at risk of losing everything) from these events regardless of the victor.

And sanity returns to the thread.

 

[Rorsach]

Last message from my brother, who lives in Ankara with his family (for work). I had asked him if everyone was alright:

Yes, have sat through the night in one bed, full on bombings that shook the house and gun fire with constant low flying jets all night. Still ongoing. Every body in my team accounted for and all in lock down at the moment.

 

[Azzanadra]

If people vote for a dictator and are willing to face tanks to support him then that's on the population.

That's democracy, the people have spoken

Didn't you just associate this with brexit?

Something something Hitler

I see your point though, and actually the reason why I allow the coup is because in any democratic society there are checks and balances on even the most powerful person, all it takes is a glance at Erdogan's Wikipedia page to see how he has time and time again acted in an undemocratic manner and borderline fascist with his censorship, silencing and anti-protest measures.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

It's like they just don't want to understand huh? Like they truly DONT get it.

It's fine if you have a dissenting opinion.

But don't try to act like the it's not the Turkish people who are opposing the coup.

 

[MMaRsu]

It's fine if you have a dissenting opinion.

But don't try to act like the it's not the Turkish people who are opposing the coup.

The turkish people or just erdogan supporters??

 

[Mr.Sumal]

Why? El-Sisi was elected in 2014 via a totes legit democratic process too.

The people in egypt didn't even bother to show up to vote in that sham

 

[Frustrated_me]

It's fine if you have a dissenting opinion.

But don't try to act like the it's not the Turkish people who are opposing the coup.

Yes the Turkish people are supporting an undemocratic borderline fascist semi-dictator who continues to imprison his foes and take away civil freedom.

What is you point here exactly?

 

[BigDes]

What is going to happen to the soldiers who took part in the coup? Not the officers the actual rank and file?

I don't imagine they had much choice in taking part?

 

[Branduil]

no, but supporting a coup somehow makes a champion of democracy.

Who said anything about

a. thinking a coup is a good idea that will lead to good things

or

b. being a champion of democracy?

My comment was on the running trend of GAF posters trying to shame people for being "enemies of democracy" whenever they oppose something that was decided "democratically." First of all, it's bullshit because pure democracy tends to be really dumb and most people don't actually support simple majority-rules democracy. Second of all, the reason people run to this dumb argument is because any other argument in support of dictators or racist xenophobia would likely lead to them being banned.

 

[Ragnaroz]

This is awful, I hope this doesn't blow up into a state of civil war. Europe could be looking at another massive wave of refugees that we simply can't take in...

There will be no civil war. Had the coup succeeded then maybe, but not now, no.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The people stepped up and defended their president and government. These are incredibly brave citizens.

They could have ignored Erdogan's plea, but they opted to answer his call instead.

Brave citizens, rising to the challenge, helping to preserve an oppressive state. Thank goodness that tomorrow, the jailing of political dissidents, suppression of the press and murder of Kurds can go on unmolested.

We salute their courageous sacrifice (-ω-)ゝ

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Something something Hitler

I see your point though, and actually the reason why I allow the coup is because in any democratic society there are checks and balances on even the most powerful person, all it takes is a glance at Erdogan's Wikipedia page to see how he has time and time again acted in an undemocratic manner and borderline fascist with his censorship, silencing and anti-protest measures.

I agree his conduct is most disagreeable.

But my point is, if this is what a majority of the population wants then what is there to be done?

I'll be honest, perhaps I'm speaking from ignorance but if the U.S. And nato are supporting this guy AND the people of the country as well then what am I supposed to say? You're all wrong and I know what's best for you because my opinion is the right opinion?

 

[Sesuadra]

Brave citizens, rising to the challenge, helping to preserve an oppressive state. Thank goodness that tomorrow, the jailing of political dissidents, suppression of the press and murder of Kurds can go on unmolested.

We salute their courageous sacrifice (-ω-)ゝ

It's a sad morning.

 

[Frustrated_me]

Brave citizens, rising to the challenge, helping to preserve an oppressive state. Thank goodness that tomorrow, the jailing of political dissidents, suppression of the press and murder of Kurds can go on unmolested.

We salute their courageous sacrifice (-ω-)ゝ

...Fuck.

Well said.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Yes the Turkish people are supporting an undemocratic borderline fascist semi-dictator who continues to imprison his foes and take away civil freedom.

What is you point here exactly?

You just made my point for me.

I'll even put it in bold

You want to be mad, be mad at the Tirkish people, erdogan is an ass but he obviously has huge support. Direct your anger at them

 

[anonymous_abc]

I feel very sorry for the people of Turkey.
The likelihood of Erdogan cracking down and consolidating power seems awfully high...

 

[Omega Kirby]

Hard to believe this happened exactly 24 hours after the nice attack. Just too much impactful stuff happening so quickly

 

[spekkeh]

What a weird coup. So they closed off the bridges and made a big show and then, nothing? Leave the PM and president where they are? Aren't coups about usurping power?

You'd think they didn't think it through, but nothing about yesterday showed incompetence. Something is weirdly off.

 

[anonymous_abc]

What a weird coup. So they closed off the bridges and made a big show and then, nothing? Leave the PM and president where they are? Aren't coups about usurping power?

You'd think they didn't think it through, but nothing about yesterday showed incompetence. Something is weirdly off.

Gulnur Aybet, head of the Department of Political Science and International Relations at the Centre for Security Studies at Bahcesehir University in Istanbul, tells the BBC World Service that the reasons for the coup's apparent failure are:

• A relatively low number of solders took part
• Senior commanders were outspoken in condemning it
• People came out onto the streets to oppose it

via BBC

 

[Jasper]

Let this be a wake up call to the EU to scrap any intention of visa-free travel for turks, as well as Turkey's accession into the EU.

The turkish majority have made themselves crystal clear...they want Turkey to be a non-secular Islamic dictatorship, and such people (and such a country) has absolutely no place in the EU.

 

[Pusherman]

I’m glad the coup has seemingly failed. I hope Erdogan purges the military of all that thought such action justified and this failed coup allows for the constitution of Turkey to be changed. So that in the future no one can ever again claim legality for such a murderous and despicable act. Military coups are almost never the answer, especially not in democratic countries in the 21st century. Allowing the military to solely decide when and if to forcibly remove an elected leader in order to protect such vague concepts as democracy and secularism, even when action seems to be opposed by all political parties and the people themselves, is dangerous, undemocratic and not at all comparable to Supreme Courts and other such institutions in the West (institutions that Turkey shares). Dislike Erdogan all you like, I do too, but he is not in any way like Hitler or the slave-holding South, comparisons I’ve actually seen made in this thread. You should be ashamed of yourselves and if Erdogan uses this to gain even more power it’ll be no one else’s fault but the military and yourselves.

 

[GasProblem]

Atleast Erdogan apologized to Putin recently and made a deal with Israel to normalize relations. Let's hope Erdogan continues on that path...

 

[orochi91]

A list of things that are true:

-Erdogan is a democratically elected leader
-He has ruled in an increasingly undemocratic and authoritarian way
-Military coups are undemocratic
-The coup plotters attempted to depose Erdogan, but also bombed the Turkish parliament, attempted to suppress the media, and killed civilians
-All Turkish political parties opposed the coup, including the opposition
-Erdogan will now take advantage of the opportunity that the coup has presented to further consolidate his power and crack down on his enemies

Any attempt to construct a narrative or interpretation of these events that has only a single villian necessarily means denying at least some of the above.

Sometimes there is no lesser evil. If you're going to be angry, be angry for the people of Turkey, who had nothing to gain (and now are at risk of losing everything) from these events regardless of the victor.

Agreed, wholeheartedly, especially with the bolded.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Brave citizens, rising to the challenge, helping to preserve an oppressive state. Thank goodness that tomorrow, the jailing of political dissidents, suppression of the press and murder of Kurds can go on unmolested.

We salute their courageous sacrifice (-ω-)ゝ

youre breathless.

cant get over 1453 still

only someone as embittered as you have become can downplay how important it was for citizens to act in protective democracy, however fragile.

presume the kurds that poured onto the streets are traitors then?

and tsipras a supporter of molestation

youre actually deluded

 

[m_shortpants]

A list of things that are true:

-Erdogan is a democratically elected leader
-He has ruled in an increasingly undemocratic and authoritarian way
-Military coups are undemocratic
-The coup plotters attempted to depose Erdogan, but also bombed the Turkish parliament, attempted to suppress the media, and killed civilians
-All Turkish political parties opposed the coup, including the opposition
-Erdogan will now take advantage of the opportunity that the coup has presented to further consolidate his power and crack down on his enemies

Any attempt to construct a narrative or interpretation of these events that has only a single villian necessarily means denying at least some of the above.

Sometimes there is no lesser evil. If you're going to be angry, be angry for the people of Turkey, who had nothing to gain (and now are at risk of losing everything) from these events regardless of the victor.

Great post. Thank you.

Honestly don't think a coup is the right move, don't have to go too far back to see why. Just look at Egypt in 2013.

 

[spekkeh]

I agree his conduct is most disagreeable.

But my point is, if this is what a majority of the population wants then what is there to be done?

Again, a democracy is not, and never has been, a tyranny of the majority. The ancient Greeks already wrote many books on this.
If the majority of the population wants to e.g. endlöss the Kurds, this cannot be allowed to happen. If a popular dictator is deposed, it's not per se any less democratic than when he stays in power.

 

[Jasper]

Atleast Erdogan apologized to Putin recently

Only because Turkey was bleeding BILLIONS of dollars worth of trade from Russia.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Why? El-Sisi was elected in 2014 via a totes legit democratic process too.

You can't compare Turkey to Egypt. In Egypt, the military is far more powerful, and a lot of assets like hotels actually belong to generals and former generals. They were always the one who pulled the strings in the background and the El-Sisi and his muslim brothers were a thread to that. So they got rid of them.

Now, we still have no clue who's behind this coup. Kemalists? Junior officers? Gülan?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

youre breathless.

cant get over 1453 still

only someone as embittered as you have become can downplay how important it was for citizens to act in protective democracy, however fragile.

presume the kurds that poured onto the streets are traitors then?

and tsipras a supporter of molestation

youre actually deluded

Nah, I actually can't get over 1915, but that's a different story for another day.

I'm not downplaying anything. It was incredibly important that they come out to maintain Erdogan's government. There's no doubt that they played a decisive role in the happenings.

And they'll deserve the horrific government they get, while others will continue to suffer unfairly.

And lol at "Kurds pouring onto the streets."

 

[Nesotenso]

Who said anything about

a. thinking a coup is a good idea that will lead to good things

or

b. being a champion of democracy?

My comment was on the running trend of GAF posters trying to shame people for being "enemies of democracy" whenever they oppose something that was decided "democratically." First of all, it's bullshit because pure democracy tends to be really dumb and most people don't actually support simple majority-rules democracy. Second of all, the reason people run to this dumb argument is because any other argument in support of dictators or racist xenophobia would likely lead to them being banned.

yeah I don't see people hear doing that. You can not be a fan of Erdogan's actions and at the same time not be a fan of coups.

 

[EmiPrime]

Yes the Turkish people are supporting an undemocratic borderline fascist semi-dictator who continues to imprison his foes and take away civil freedom.

What is you point here exactly?

But he won elections that were totally above board!

If we ignore the imprisoning of political opponents as well as academics and journalists who get a bit too vocal.

And the electoral fraud.

And that he controls all the media.

If that's not democracy I don't know what is.

 

[jorma]

Who said anything about

a. thinking a coup is a good idea that will lead to good things

or

b. being a champion of democracy?

My comment was on the running trend of GAF posters trying to shame people for being "enemies of democracy" whenever they oppose something that was decided "democratically." First of all, it's bullshit because pure democracy tends to be really dumb and most people don't actually support simple majority-rules democracy. Second of all, the reason people run to this dumb argument is because any other argument in support of dictators or racist xenophobia would likely lead to them being banned.

I'm sorry i accused you of only liking democracy when it goes your way, it's kinda evident you just don't like it at all.

 

[Blablurn]

 

[trembli0s]

2016 claims another life: Republic of Turkey.

Time to move the nukes out and kick them out of NATO. Russia can have fun with them

 

[Kenzodielocke]

So, the coup has most likely failed or is this propaganda ? Also, doesn't the miltitary have some important people hostage?

 

[orochi91]

2016 claims another life: Republic of Turkey.

Time to move the nukes out and kick them out of NATO. Russia can have fun with them

Lol

Be reasonable, we both know that can never happen, Turkey is too geopolitical important of an ally to NATO.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

Let this be a wake up call to the EU to scrap any intention of visa-free travel for turks, as well as Turkey's accession into the EU.

So having a military coup would be a supposed fast track to getting in the EU. Rubbish.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Again, a democracy is not, and never has been, a tyranny of the majority. The ancient Greeks already wrote many books on this.
If the majority of the population wants to e.g. endlöss the Kurds, this cannot be allowed to happen. If a popular dictator is deposed, it's not per se any less democratic than when he stays in power.

so then what is a democracy if not a decision by the masses?

I do agree with your premise that it doesn't always lead to what's morally right but a democracy is a democracy

Let's, for a moment, look at brexit. The country voted to leave despite pretty much the whole world saying not to do it - but you need to respect the votes since it came from the people

 

[kami_sama]

A list of things that are true:

-Erdogan is a democratically elected leader
-He has ruled in an increasingly undemocratic and authoritarian way
-Military coups are undemocratic
-The coup plotters attempted to depose Erdogan, but also bombed the Turkish parliament, attempted to suppress the media, and killed civilians
-All Turkish political parties opposed the coup, including the opposition
-Erdogan will now take advantage of the opportunity that the coup has presented to further consolidate his power and crack down on his enemies

Any attempt to construct a narrative or interpretation of these events that has only a single villian necessarily means denying at least some of the above.

Sometimes there is no lesser evil. If you're going to be angry, be angry for the people of Turkey, who had nothing to gain (and now are at risk of losing everything) from these events regardless of the victor.

Couldn't have said it better myself. We might act a little arm-chairy sometimes, so it is nice to have something like this.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Nah, I actually can't get over 1915, but that's a different story for another day.

I'm not downplaying anything. It was incredibly important that they come out to maintain Erdogan's government. There's no doubt that they played a decisive role in the happenings.

And they'll deserve the horrific government they get, while others will continue to suffer unfairly.

And lol at "Kurds pouring onto the streets."

clueless as ever.

no surprise you could oppose the mobilisation of a populace in preserving democracy.

its ok mate, you can hate Turks and be pleased democracy triumphing at the same time.

it also doesnt mean authoritarianism is condoned. like you are able to have these ideas in your head. at. the. same. time.

 

[spekkeh]

I’m glad the coup has seemingly failed. I hope Erdogan purges the military of all that thought such action justified and this failed coup allows for the constitution of Turkey to be changed. So that in the future no one can ever again claim legality for such a murderous and despicable act. Military coups are almost never the answer, especially not in democratic countries in the 21st century. Allowing the military to solely decide when and if to forcibly remove an elected leader in order to protect such vague concepts as democracy and secularism, even when action seems to be opposed by all political parties and the people themselves, is dangerous, undemocratic and not at all comparable to Supreme Courts and other such institutions in the West (institutions that Turkey shares). Dislike Erdogan all you like, I do too, but he is not in any way like Hitler or the slave-holding South, comparisons I’ve actually seen made in this thread. You should be ashamed of yourselves and if Erdogan uses this to gain even more power it’ll be no one else’s fault but the military and yourselves.

Or maybe it's Erdogans fault?
The same judicial institutions that are used to throw his opponents and nobelprize winning journalists in prison are your checks and balances of a strong democratic state?
I don't think coups are a particularly great idea, but the moment it started it would have been much better if it were successful. The moment tanks in Turkey get stopped by people shouting allahuakbar, you know what time it is. You undoubtedly think differently.