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[orthodoxy1095]

Would all of the military coup apologists in here also support a coup in the US if Trump wins?

I wouldn't recommend a coup just because he wins. There's enough limiting factors like institutional checks and balances, term limits, etc. that should prevent too much damage from occurring.

But if he became Erdogan 2.0 and started jailing political dissidents, removing various politicians/leaders from their offices, clamping down on the free press and started killing ethnic minorities, yeah, a call for his removal wouldn't be inherently insane.

Is this some kind of sick joke? Erdogan fomented a low level civil war against the Kurds just recently to bolster his election prospects. He's a fucking megalomaniac.

You obviously don't get it.

Since then, Kurds are being bombed daily, hundreds of people have died and hundreds of thousands are still displaced.

But things are sooooo good now!

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

So good that he is only bombing them to hell.

While I agree that Erdogan over reacted big time to armed Kurds in the Syrian/Iraqi border region, that doesn't mean there is ethnic cleansing of Kurds going on. Turkey and PKK are at war, PKK has carried out many terrorist attacks in the past year and it's only normal for Turkey to retaliate. PKK and Kurds are not synonymous.

 

[DJKhaled]

Would all of the military coup apologists in here also support a coup in the US if Trump wins?

What a stupid comparison and question

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Is this some kind of sick joke? Erdogan fomented a low level civil war against the Kurds just recently to bolster his election prospects. He's a fucking megalomaniac.

Please help me understand Turkish Kurdish relations during the 80s and 90s please mate.

I can wait.

 

[toadsworth]

Who needs free speech when you've got democracy?

 

[Cromwell]

clamping down on the free press and started killing ethnic minorities.

He's already about 80% there and we haven't even hit the RNC yet.

 

[spekkeh]

so then what is a democracy if not a decision by the masses?

I do agree with your premise that it doesn't always lead to what's morally right but a democracy is a democracy

Let's, for a moment, look at brexit. The country voted to leave despite pretty much the whole world saying not to do it - but you need to respect the votes since it came from the people

Brexit is another moment where it went awry IMO. Some simple considerations: should our elected governments serve the will or the interest of the people? If a group manages to start a referendum to abolish taxes and they get a majority, should their will be done? Can people who don't pay taxes have a say? If we have a representative government, but they should represent the will of the people, shouldn't we have an actual cross representation of the population instead of voting in upper class silver spoon people? The people that exercise their passive voting rights want to have power, are these people best fit to represent the people's interest? Wouldn't a lottery be better?

A good democracy should consider this and create the appropriate checks and balances.

This is why I think democracy = mob rule greatly undersells democracy. Sadly in a time where politicians care more about polling numbers than governance, the two get conflated more and more.

 

[Dying Of Thirst]

What a stupid comparison and question

I was thinking the same thing, what's worse is posters are actually humoring such an unreleated question.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

He's already about 80% there and we haven't even hit the RNC yet.

Like I said, I'm still confident enough in the design of the government that there are enough safeguards to prevent him from doing anything too crazy. For all the importance we place on the president election, there's too much complexity to get most of his stupid ideas done.

The comparison is really honestly kind of goofy, because if Trump did get over the safeguards and became what Erdogan is, I don't think many people would find the idea of a forced removal too insane.

 

[trembli0s]

Please help me understand Turkish Kurdish relations during the 80s and 90s please mate.

I can wait.

You're the one spouting bullshit claims that life under Erodgan is rosy if you're a Kurd.

And yet...

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...-kurds-presidential-system-new-elections.html

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0X11IQ

He's actually managed to unite all the Kurds against him, mostly because he's a maniacal murderer.

Keep on spinning though, maybe you'll get somewhere peddling that garbage.

 

[Syder]

I’m glad the coup has seemingly failed. I hope Erdogan purges the military of all that thought such action justified and this failed coup allows for the constitution of Turkey to be changed. So that in the future no one can ever again claim legality for such a murderous and despicable act. Military coups are almost never the answer, especially not in democratic countries in the 21st century. Allowing the military to solely decide when and if to forcibly remove an elected leader in order to protect such vague concepts as democracy and secularism, even when action seems to be opposed by all political parties and the people themselves, is dangerous, undemocratic and not at all comparable to Supreme Courts and other such institutions in the West (institutions that Turkey shares). Dislike Erdogan all you like, I do too, but he is not in any way like Hitler or the slave-holding South, comparisons I’ve actually seen made in this thread. You should be ashamed of yourselves and if Erdogan uses this to gain even more power it’ll be no one else’s fault but the military and yourselves.

Turkey does not fall into this criteria under Erdoğan.

I haven't really researched enough to put my money on this being a false flag conducted by Erdoğan himself but I've seen lots of posts across GAF, twitter, Facebook, reddit, etc. that find this whole thing extremely fishy. The sad thing is, this coup, 'real' or not, 'justified' or not, will probably actually lead to law/constitution change in Turkey.

Turkey would 100% be better off without Erdoğan but this military group lost all moral high ground when the first blood of an innocent was spilled.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

While I agree that Erdogan over reacted big time to armed Kurds in the Syrian/Iraqi border region, that doesn't mean there is ethnic cleansing of Kurds going on. Turkey and PKK are at war, PKK has carried out many terrorist attacks in the past year and it's only normal for Turkey to retaliate. PKK and Kurds are not synonymous.

It's interesting that groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International aren't being allowed to document what's happening.

If there's no ethnic cleansing or abuses happening, surely they could be allowed to investigate without any cause for worry right?

 

[Cromwell]

Like I said, I'm still confident enough in the design of the government that there are enough safeguards to prevent him from doing anything too crazy. For all the importance we place on the president election, there's too much complexity to get most of his stupid ideas done.

The comparison is really honestly kind of goofy, because if Trump did get over the safeguards and became what Erdogan is, I don't think many people would find the idea of a forced removal too insane.

Did you forget George W. Bush? This idea that the President can't really cause too much damage because of reasons is... well, flat out wrong. He single handedly (with the help of Uncle Cheney) threw us into the most catastrophic war in American history. He created ISIS. And Trump's base wants him to carry out these ideas. They would not be on board with removing him no matter what he does. If he's elected I can't even begin to imagine the degree to which racial tensions will escalate, since white supremacy will officially be accepted out in the open again.

 

[kruis]

So this probably means Bye Bye secular Turkey and Welcome dictator Erdogan forever?

Yup. This coup is for Erdogan what the burning Reichstag was for Hitler: the time to grab power completely and finish off all of his remaining opponents. I wonder how many judges and journalists will be accused of being co-conspirators of this coup. Lots of them I guess.

 

[AuthenticM]

So has the coup failed?

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

You're the one spouting bullshit claims that life under Erodgan is rosy if you're a Kurd.

And yet...

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...-kurds-presidential-system-new-elections.html

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0X11IQ

He's actually managed to unite all the Kurds against him, mostly because he's a maniacal murderer.

Keep on spinning though, maybe you'll get somewhere peddling that garbage.

So you can't educate me on what happened before then yeah?

There are times when you should just sit down, be quiet and accept that frantically googling isn't always the way.

 

[brian577]

Did you forget George W. Bush? This idea that the President can't really cause too much damage because of reasons is... well, flat out wrong. He single handedly (with the help of Uncle Cheney) threw us into the most catastrophic war in American history.

As you pointed out, he was also surrounded by shitty people and not just Cheney.

 

[Sijil]

Well I just woke up to see coup soldiers being tortured in Mosques, and some being executed.

Truly the Turkish people deserve someone like Erdogan, hope they enjoy every minute of him, and all the economic misery and tyranny that will follow.

Attaturks Turkey is dead and buried at this point, we live in a time where you can buy T shirt with ISIS slogans on them right in downtown Ankara or Istanbul without the authorities flinching.

 

[Cromwell]

As you pointed out, he was also surrounded by shitty people and not just Cheney.

And Trump would be surrounded by even shitter and dumber people.

 

[cyba89]

Turkey would 100% be better off without Erdoğan but this military group lost all moral high ground when the first blood of an innocent was spilled.

My opinion too. Can't really choose a side in this.
Just a shame for the innocent lifes lost.

e: and why is this suddenly about Trump now in here?

 

[brian577]

And Trump would be surrounded by even shitter and dumber people.

He would also not have the support of either party. You think Obama has a hard getting things done? It would be next to impossible with Trump in the White House.

 

[trembli0s]

So you can't educate me on what happened before then yeah?

There are times when you should just sit down, be quiet and accept that frantically googling isn't always the way.

Here is your direct quote:

During his democratically elected reign, Kurdish relations have never been this good.

If you think the bombings are bad now, should have been around during the 80s/90s.

Maybe you should sit down.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Well I just woke up to see coup soldiers being tortured in Mosques, and some being executed.

Truly the Turkish people deserve someone like Erdogan, hope they enjoy every minute of him, and all the economic misery and tyranny that will follow.

Attaturks Turkey is dead and buried at this point, we live in a time where you can buy T shirt with ISIS slogans on them right in downtown Ankara or Istanbul without the authorities flinching.

Mustafa Kemal will be a bit miffed at how his name was spelt.

And the concern for torture. And desire for democracy.

 

[Soulflarz]

Been gone from the topic for a bit- so is the general consensus that the coup was a success? Or not at all.

 

[BigDes]

Shit, It just hit me that my Uncle is in Turkey.

Hope he's Ok.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Here is your direct quote:

During his democratically elected reign, Kurdish relations have never been this good.

If you think the bombings are bad now, should have been around during the 80s/90s.

Maybe you should sit down.

It's ok for you to say "hey, I just don't know about this subject area"

I would respect you more for saying, "it seems really bad now but I don't know enough about Turkey to continue to comment about this"

You can do it mate, it's not painful in the slightest to say you just don't know.

 

[Cromwell]

He would also not have the support of either party. You think Obama has a hard getting things done? It would be next to impossible with Trump in the White House.

I don't think anyone can guarantee that. After GWB absolutely nothing is off the table, he took 9/11 and then threw us a bullshit line about WMD's, boom everyone was on board. The same or worse could happen with Trump. Being old enough to remember what was happening to the country in the early 00's taught me even the craziest shit you can imagine today can be a reality tomorrow.

 

[reckless]

Been gone from the topic for a bit- so is the general consensus that the coup was a success? Or not at all.

Not at all.

 

[TCRS]

Oh shit it failed? And they trird to kill Erdogan by bombing his Hotel? Jeebus

 

[GasProblem]

Been gone from the topic for a bit- so is the general consensus that the coup was a success? Or not at all.

It failed an 90 people died so far so no, not a succes at all.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Turkey does not fall into this criteria under Erdoğan.

I haven't really researched enough to put my money on this being a false flag conducted by Erdoğan himself but I've seen lots of posts across GAF, twitter, Facebook, reddit, etc. that find this whole thing extremely fishy. The sad thing is, this coup, 'real' or not, 'justified' or not, will probably actually lead to law/constitution change in Turkey.

Turkey would 100% be better off without Erdoğan but this military group lost all moral high ground when the first blood of an innocent was spilled.

It's a fucking coup. Fucking gaffers and their ridiculous standards of how the world should work. If innocent people didn't die it would be a miracle.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Brexit is another moment where it went awry IMO. Some simple considerations: should our elected governments serve the will or the interest of the people? If a group manages to start a referendum to abolish taxes and they get a majority, should their will be done? Can people who don't pay taxes have a say? If we have a representative government, but they should represent the will of the people, shouldn't we have an actual cross representation of the population instead of voting in upper class silver spoon people? The people that exercise their passive voting rights want to have power, are these people best fit to represent the people's interest? Wouldn't a lottery be better?

A good democracy should consider this and create the appropriate checks and balances.

This is why I think democracy = mob rule greatly undersells democracy. Sadly in a time where politicians care more about polling numbers than governance, the two get conflated more and more.

My heart tells me the government should represent the interests of the people however the will is also factored in subconsciously or not.

It's why you have two or more parties that represent the interests and to a degree the will of their voting constituency.

The checks and balance part I whole heartedly agree, that is why the Supreme Courts exist... But, the folly here is it lies up to the population to implement said checks and balances of their democratic systems

They put it in their constitution that a military coup is allowed and it happened... Opposers to the coup however felt it was not in their best interest for it to succeed and it played out as such if there were a slight majority that held an opposing view they absolutely need to let their voices be heard.

Saying they were staying home because that's what they were told to do may have been valid at the moment but the second it appeared the coup failed it was time to act - making excuses otherwise reminds me of when people said oh brexit didn't represent the will of the country because some people voted ironically or didn't bother voting at all.

You're right though democracy = mob rule isn't the best way to go about it

 

[reckless]

Oh shit it failed? And they trird to kill Erdogan by bombing his Hotel? Jeebus

Erdogan says they tried to bomb his hotel, witnesses say otherwise...

 

[TCRS]

Turkey does not fall into this criteria under Erdoğan.

I haven't really researched enough to put my money on this being a false flag conducted by Erdoğan himself but I've seen lots of posts across GAF, twitter, Facebook, reddit, etc. that find this whole thing extremely fishy. The sad thing is, this coup, 'real' or not, 'justified' or not, will probably actually lead to law/constitution change in Turkey.

Turkey would 100% be better off without Erdoğan but this military group lost all moral high ground when the first blood of an innocent was spilled.

So it was the Coup guys who started the bloodshed? Does anyone have a summary of the last 9 hours (that I have been asleep)?

 

[oti]

So this coup failed because:

1. Not all military was behind it
2. It was badly organized
3. Erdogan threw his people at panzers
4. Erdogan supporters would literally die for him

Whatever the result, Erdogan showed he would do anything to stay in power, his supporters showed they would do anything to keep him in power (although "knowing" the Turkish I'm sure they would have entered the streets even if this wasn't Erdogan, patriotism and so on). So expect thousands of people disappearing in the next weeks and expect the "New Turkey".

 

[RSP]

My no-vacation-to-turkey rule just got a 5-year extension.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

So this coup failed because:

1. Not all military was behind it
2. It was badly organized
3. Erdogan threw his people at panzers
4. Erdogan supporters would literally die for him

Whatever the result, Erdogan showed he would do anything to stay in power, his supporters showed they would do anything to keep him in power (although "knowing" the Turkish I'm sure they would have entered the streets even if this wasn't Erdogan, patriotism and so on). So expect thousands of people disappearing in the next weeks and expect the "New Turkey".

5. All political parties, including the main Kurdish one were opposed to it.
6. All media, private and public, were opposed to the coup.

This is Turkey being mobilised, not just Recep's supporters.

 

[Tyaren]

Well, well, how convenient for Erdogan this huge fail of a coup is...

Had any mainstream media the guts yet to address this?

 

[Matt]

And Trump would be surrounded by even shitter and dumber people.

It doesn't really matter. If elected (which he wont be), he'll be the President and should be allowed to operate as such under the law. If he actually did start to violate the constitution or other laws, then that would be a different situation.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

It's interesting that groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International aren't being allowed to document what's happening.

If there's no ethnic cleansing or abuses happening, surely they could be allowed to investigate without any cause for worry right?

The state of freedom of the press in Turkey is piss poor, no denying that. However, given Erdogan's past actions towards Kurds in the 2000s which considerably normalized relations, I have a hard time believing he'd take a hard U-turn and start ethnically cleansing Turkey of Kurds. There's something to be said about Turkey's overreaction to PKK in Syria/Iraq, but I don't think Erdogan is genocidal.

 

[Soulflarz]

Not at all.

It failed an 90 people died so far so no, not a succes at all.

Got it
and 90? Erg.

 

[SJRB]

Holy hell, I can't believe it failed. They seemed to have things on lockdown when I went to bed last night.

What a bizarre situation.

 

[Engell]

So has the coup failed?

Yeah they forgot rule nr. 1 for a successful coup..

1) kill the current leader (or at least make sure he is under your control/captured)

Not sure why they would even try without this happening should be the very first thing you do.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Holy hell, I can't believe it failed. They seemed to have things on lockdown when I went to bed last night.

What a bizarre situation.

All things considered the turkish people showed incredible courage. To go out in masses and risk to get killed to protect the democratically elected? I dont know how many people would do that in european countries. I dont like Erdogan at all but the reaction of the people is to be admired

 

[oti]

5. All political parties, including the main Kurdish one were opposed to it.
6. All media, private and public, were opposed to the coup.

This is Turkey being mobilised, not just Recep's supporters.

Saying you're opposed to the coup and being opposed to the coup are two different things. Again, I don't think this was just Erdogan's supporters but without the fanatical element it would be a different story.

The coup failing is good news. The question is for how long and at what price. But an inconvenient leader is always better than a power vacuum and especially in Turkey, such an important nation for several geopolitical reasons.

 

[Cromwell]

Yeah they forgot rule nr. 1 for a successful coup..

1) kill the current leader (or at least make sure he is under your control/captured)

Not sure why they would even try without this happening should be the very first thing you do.

It's such a fucking clueless stupid mistake that it makes me think it really all must be a work after all. How do you plan for something like this without making 100 percent sure you can kill the guy in charge as soon as it pops off?

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Yeah they forgot rule nr. 1 for a successful coup..

1) kill the current leader (or at least make sure he is under your control/captured)

Not sure why they would even try without this happening should be the very first thing you do.

That's not a necessary requirement and it could set a bad precedent. There have been coups without the leader being killed.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Saying you're opposed to the coup and being opposed to the coup are two different things. Again, I don't think this was just Erdogan's supporters but without the fanatical element it would be a different story.

The coup failing is good news. The question is for how long and at what price. But an inconvenient leader is always better than a power vacuum and especially in Turkey, such an important nation for several geopolitical reasons.

supporters of those parties were out on the streets.

 

[Arnie7]

All things considered the turkish people showed incredible courage. To go out in masses and risk to get killed to protect the democratically elected? I dont know how many people would do that in european countries. I dont like Erdogan at all but the reaction of the people is to be admired

Not really. This is the scariest aspect of this entire thing. People are blind and brainwashed enough to put their lives at risk at whims of dictator who told them through facetime.

Makes me wonder if people are ever willing to overthrow fascists. Like Stockholm syndrome. You need outsiders to come do it. Worked for Hitler all the way to Saddaam.

 

[hEist]

https://twitter.com/mhmtslmz/status/754211994585141248

#BREAKING Deputy PM Müezzinoğlu says gov't will discuss bringing back death penalty for coup plotters. #TURKEY

Here we go.