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Fall Anime 2014 lOTl Unlimited Tomino Works
- Thread starter Narag
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No, but when someone goes out of the way to critique something, it helps to be informative about the objection or perceived flaw rather than saying "I don't enjoy this type of stuff" in a bunch of different ways. If the only value of the content is just "I don't like it" then it doesn't need to be repeated over and over or debated over. It's just not worth talking about. Different people like different stuff, but if someone wants to actually debate over it, there should be something worth discussing.
BassForever
Member
I think we found the real problem here. It's fine not to like something because you don't find it interesting. But that in itself does not mean it is bad. If the bulk of the objection is "I don't like this genre and I don't understand why anyone finds this interesting or funny!" then well... I think the answer is pretty clear.
But I have seen shows in those genres that I've enjoyed despite not being the biggest fan of those genres, I can watch and enjoy a good moe comedy or a good sports anime if I sit down to watch one. Dismissing my opinion on GuP because I generally don't like moe comedy/sports is pretty disappointing, I'm not trying to hate the show I'm giving my honest thoughts on it.
Oh don't misunderstand, challenging that opinion is the fair and proper course of action. It's just when someone says something is "bad/good", the initial assumption would be its "bad/good" in their opinion as opposed to them trying to necessarily make some statement on its objective quality. That's something that comes with further elaboration from the conversation said opinionated exclamation may encourage. When prompted, he was able to clarify and defend his position no? Not that an agreement has to be reached necessarily but at least the origin of that opinion has been derived no?
It's a shame that we don't get enough discussion and debate, to be honest. I'd be all for it. Sure would be better than the continuous repeats of people bashing people for not agreeing with the majority opinion.
Like this:
Is a genuine critique. If it hadn't been so long since I've watched GuP, I would be engaged in answering.
ColossalLazy
Member
Twintails 4
Holy shit the whole eroge part was AMAZING
And Dragguildy was awesome, best villain.
Best comedy of the season. So hilarious.
Holy shit the whole eroge part was AMAZING
And Dragguildy was awesome, best villain.
Best comedy of the season. So hilarious.
Deputy Dangle
Member
Ideal version if you ask me.
BassForever
Member
My reasons for not liking Girl Und Panzer
I can't take the premise seriously, your response was "lol taking cartoons seriously"
I don't like the characters and feel there problems aren't reasonable/relatable (I know Croc posted this, but I agree with him), your response was "lol you're watching the dub that's why"
We replied that the dub is the only reason we're still able to watch it, and that we've seen enough bad dubs to notice when a show is being made worse because of a bad dub and that isn't the issue with GuP, that point was completely dismissed
I'm not sure what else we need to defend our opinion on why we (or I) don't like GuP.
I can't take the premise seriously, your response was "lol taking cartoons seriously"
I don't like the characters and feel there problems aren't reasonable/relatable (I know Croc posted this, but I agree with him), your response was "lol you're watching the dub that's why"
We replied that the dub is the only reason we're still able to watch it, and that we've seen enough bad dubs to notice when a show is being made worse because of a bad dub and that isn't the issue with GuP, that point was completely dismissed
I'm not sure what else we need to defend our opinion on why we (or I) don't like GuP.
Ufotable trying to take back the lolicon crown from Silver Link.
We're finally going to get our Ilya route!
Narag
#2 Infinite Stratos Fan
I'm not dismissing it, I'm just pointing out that your lack of affection for the genre contributes to your inability to enjoy it. I think I'm being fair here, and I'm not engaging to tell you that you cannot hold that position, but rather that I feel that you might have misunderstand the show or the praise for the show. I don't feel it is a show that transcends the genres it is in, far from that, instead it is one which embraces the genres it is part of, and appeals to people to enjoy those tropes while framing it in a ridiculous over-the-top premise which is both novel and entertaining.
You repeatedly say that people whose opinions you respect have said it is a good show, and you're unable to see where the good show is. I'm just pointing out that you might not find it because you're not looking at the praise it got in the correct perspective. I don't believe that anyone with a good assessment of the show will say "even if you don't like cute girls doing cute things, and you don't really care for traditional sports anime, you have to check this out!" I think the reverse is true - If anyone thinks that a traditional sports anime formula applied onto cute girls riding tanks as a club sport is a fun idea, then they will almost certainly enjoy this show.
But you know what I will readily dismiss?
Sure, I think that is real critique, and I'm more than happy to actually discuss what GuP does right and what it could do better at. It's not a perfect show. But I think it's also fair to say that Croc isn't really pushing for that discussion entirely here, he said something on his own, which Bass jumped on, and then doubled down on over and over like somehow everyone who said it was a good show had wronged him. I'm just trying to provide perspective that he might not enjoy the show because he had certain expectations which I don't think were realistic.
This is your tag. Please look forward to it.
ShinRPGamer
Member
the hilariously bad infinite stratos sentai dub with the fake accents doe
Good God and I thought Tiffany Grant's German accent in Samurai Girls was bad.
BassForever
Member
I'm not dismissing it, I'm just pointing out that your lack of affection for the genre contributes to your inability to enjoy it. I think I'm being fair here, and I'm not engaging to tell you that you cannot hold that position, but rather that I feel that you might have misunderstand the show or the praise for the show. I don't feel it is a show that transcends the genres it is in, far from that, instead it is one which embraces the genres it is part of, and appeals to people to enjoy those tropes while framing it in a ridiculous over-the-top premise which is both novel and entertaining.
You repeatedly say that people whose opinions you respect have said it is a good show, and you're unable to see where the good show is. I'm just pointing out that you might not find it because you're not looking at the praise it got in the correct perspective. I don't believe that anyone with a good assessment of the show will say "even if you don't like cute girls doing cute things, and you don't really care for traditional sports anime, you have to check this out!" I think the reverse is true - If anyone thinks that a traditional sports anime formula applied onto cute girls riding tanks as a club sport is a fun idea, then they will almost certainly enjoy this show.
But you know what I will readily dismiss?Your terrible opinion that a full dub track is more valuable than a series getting a proper complete release in terms of content! That truly is a bad opinion and you should feel bad for having it, regardless of your personal preferences.You shitting on the artwork for Princess Kaguya.
Fair enough, that argument I can understand about why some people enjoy GuP and why I don't.
And I can accept people not agreeing with my opinion on Princess Kaguya/preferring a dub to a complete content on a dvd release.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
The premise doesn't need to be taken "seriously". It's a world where schools are on giant ships and tankery is the most feminine of pursuits. It's clearly meant to be somewhat ridiculous, and that's fine. The show knows that and rolls with it. I can understand if you prefer worlds that are more grounded in the reality that we know, but I don't think the premise of Girls und Panzer is inherently worse or more silly than "magic robots beat each other up in space". I think much of it comes down to the kind of stories you're interested in.
Am I the only one that was upset during episode 4 of Psycho-Pass 2. They did a really good job of making you hate Sibyl system even more.
I'm more upset than when Makishima killed Akane's friend in front of her. They didn't even give the Enforcers or Inspectors a chance to hesitate. However, it was Shimotsuki's hesitation that was partly responsible.
R_thanatos
Member
I will say that execution does matter when you want to express something , but you have to pay attention to the context too . GuP set a context and if you can't accept that first , no matter what you do , even something that is common in anime won't work ..
In the exemple you quoted the mother refuses her daughter choices , a choice she made for herself and her friends , and because she likes it.
Seeing a character that want to do something "on their own" is not that rare in anime .. It's also often used as character develloppement ( like in GuP ). In that case that wasn't a problem of execution but if you can accept the premise of the anime first. You can't except to even try to enjoy the characters if you don't like the world where they live in.
The point works even better since that scene lead to another where the motyher initially reluctant , begin gradually to accept her daughter choice.. it's nothing that hasn't been done before.
But ,that doesn't mean you have to accept whatever the world throw at you , I personnaly can understand the premise of "black bullet" yet , scream at how awefull this anime is and how dumb everyone is.
Disgusting. Would rather end up with the other suggested one; "Not actually called Jeff"
BassForever
Member
Most people aren't watching it due to the obvious racist designs and undertones of the show, those who are ignoring it are mostly frustrated by the censorship when people get killed.
A lot of pointless death, but somehow I still read the manga. The premise is very interesting to me at least.
Surely all of it. The serialization has been over for nearly 20 years.
Largely accepted for it's deep and thorough dissection of class struggle.
its a worthy spiritual sequel to the birth of a nation
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Should be the whole thing.
nintendoman58
Member
Twintail Flamenco - 2
We have villains playing Jenga, the risk element of the show being the loss of people liking things, and a mother who's perfectly fine and dandy with a girl she's never met before sleeping with her son.
It's official folks, we have our Samurai Flamenco successor. Go forth, Twintail Flamenco!
We have villains playing Jenga, the risk element of the show being the loss of people liking things, and a mother who's perfectly fine and dandy with a girl she's never met before sleeping with her son.
It's official folks, we have our Samurai Flamenco successor. Go forth, Twintail Flamenco!
Mockingbird
Member
Log Horizon Season 2 Ep 5
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
R_thanatos
Member
I think that was the intended goal of this episode. That was clearly obvious given the result and what we , as spectator knows.
It also have the secondary effect of making characters act worse than they should, because they can't think outside of the box and that make them act like idiots ( for them it's fine )
It was like watching a crash test in slow motion.
One of the points of the first season was that you need to think differently to reach the right conclusion when ordinary methods doesn't work. Problem , everyone who know this is either : dead, in prison, in exil
That leaves us with akane that has no leeway to act as freely as she should because "sibyl"
Since it was brought up, I'll follow up on this and see if anyone actually wants to discuss it. I certainly don't believe shows to be perfect, even if I enjoy them a lot, so there's always room to talk about quality of execution.
For the question about whether it was meant to be comedic, it definitely is. The brand of "drama" and humor in GuP is pretty consistent with the style the director uses in almost all his works. Often there's debate about whether certain things were really intended to be funny or if it just ended up that way, but familiarity with the director's work will indicate that there's a very low chance that it is not intentional. His other "dramatic" works like Blood-C and Another also showcase this attribute. He uses exaggeration while playing it straight, especially in completely ridiculous scenarios, to create comedic effect. The scenes themselves are presented in a completely straight faced way, with the characters not indicating any sense of being part of a joke, but that in itself is the joke. Doesn't work for everyone I guess, but the intent is there.
As for my personal thoughts on some of the flaws in the series, I would say that overall the narrative arc is a bit too traditional and predictable. That's not always a bad thing, but it also saps the actual tension out of a number of the matches. They lose the first practice match to show how "strong" a competitor is for example, and that same competitor is latter beaten in the real competition by the "real enemy" to show how strong the final team will be. That sort of stuff is just a little too on the nose and I would have enjoyed the show even more if it wasn't so obvious.
It was also extremely clear from the start that once the tournament started, they would never lose, so every match up to the finale was a matter of watching to see how they pull themselves a win when overwhelmed. I think the actual tactics and direction of the matches made them pretty exciting to watch, but deep down everyone knows who will win the match. Gundam Build Fighters also suffers from this problem a lot, and I love that show too, but it would be better if the tournament formats had room for both victory and loss in individual matches.
I'm fine having a conversation on what I've seen of GuP if people are interested. Maybe I or Bass didn't explain myself/ourselves in the best way possible but I will say I'm surprised at the push back. I will be clear that I don't at all feel wronged that I'm not liking the show as much as others (I know you were talking about Bass but I feel I should be clear on my feeling on this as well).
When talking about believability, which Bass has refereed too, I mean that the show has done a poor job so far on making me relate to these characters and their ambitions, tribulations and interactions. Moments that are clearly supposed to induce sympathy or adulation do nothing for me and I've seen enough bad dubs in my life to make be believe that it isn't the difference maker. I can enjoy shows that are strongly grounded in reality or completely absurd all the same and I can still take the events, characters, etc. seriously if the show in question calls for it an the execution is on point. Ping Pong and TTGL (random shows ahoy) are both shows on the opposite sides of the grounded/absurd spectrum but both manged to set me on their worlds and their characters. Girls in tank battles on a super huge aircraft carrier isn't a premise me or Bass can't handle. However, the show has so far completely failed to make me care about its characters or their actions. Things come off as stupid in world rather than awesome.
GuP has failed to sell me on its world setting or character set - that is the major fault of the show and why I nor Bass can "take anything seriously". It all comes off as a joke.
Is that at all clear?
EDIT: Shit I wrote all this before I saw duckroll's post above. I will read that now and respond shortly.
When talking about believability, which Bass has refereed too, I mean that the show has done a poor job so far on making me relate to these characters and their ambitions, tribulations and interactions. Moments that are clearly supposed to induce sympathy or adulation do nothing for me and I've seen enough bad dubs in my life to make be believe that it isn't the difference maker. I can enjoy shows that are strongly grounded in reality or completely absurd all the same and I can still take the events, characters, etc. seriously if the show in question calls for it an the execution is on point. Ping Pong and TTGL (random shows ahoy) are both shows on the opposite sides of the grounded/absurd spectrum but both manged to set me on their worlds and their characters. Girls in tank battles on a super huge aircraft carrier isn't a premise me or Bass can't handle. However, the show has so far completely failed to make me care about its characters or their actions. Things come off as stupid in world rather than awesome.
GuP has failed to sell me on its world setting or character set - that is the major fault of the show and why I nor Bass can "take anything seriously". It all comes off as a joke.
Is that at all clear?
EDIT: Shit I wrote all this before I saw duckroll's post above. I will read that now and respond shortly.
phoenix296
Member
That was horrible.
Well, I knew it was probably going to happen from episode 3's ending, but I kept hoping it wouldn't.
I think Akane has more leeway than some, but she just didn't put everything together fast enough. Tow Ubakata is trying to emulate Urobutcher.The matches and tank tactics were one of the best parts of GuP. It's a pretty typical underdog story though. I enjoyed it.
nintendoman58
Member
I was really upset with how terrible the episode was, and I'm even more upset with my inability to drop the show. I can't say I really have any emotional attachment to the characters or the worldview in the series, so I'm not really upset at the actual events of the episode. The low level of intelligence exhibited by the entire cast in the new series makes the outcome at the end inevitable, so it wasn't really surprising either. I get the sort of thing they're trying to do with the new season, but I think the writing and direction is so poor that the message becomes sort of irrelevant. The emphasis they have on making everything so edgy each week makes it feel more like a slasher flick than a real social commentary.
Then again, I guess Psycho-pass was also like that, and the degree here is more intense because they're on a single season ongoing story arc rather than a more episodic two season series. The production values are really awful though. No doubt because it's pretty rushed as they use two studios to run in parallel so they can have this season out now and the movie finale in Jan next year.
Is this the crew that did Pani Poni Dash?
Ok, the way everybody in the scene was acting was telling me I should be taking that seriously which caused mood whiplash but I guess that may just be my unfamiliarity with the director. I haven't seen Another but I never felt that sort of mismatch with Blood - C (which I liked putting aside the blue balls that was the movie) or Shirobako (which has been a blast so far) which I'm watching now. If there's going to be more of that stuff I'll keep this in mind but I'm skeptical I'll actually enjoy it any more. It's a directional choice that hasn't worked for me in the context of this series.
The actual tank battle tactics is one of the few strong points of the show so I'll agree with that. I enjoy super moves as much as the next person but overuse them and they lose luster. Every victory in GuP has felt "earned" though it is helped by the opposing team being kind of dumb more often than not.
It was mostly
Aoyanagi's death
ayoi mentioned Aoyanagi could be restrained too and Shimotsuki telling them to do nothing
R_thanatos
Member
I feel similar .
PP2 is a serie i would have dropped had i not seen the first season, i'm waiting for something to happen and that wasn't what ep 4 did , since we know already , as viewer, that the sibyl system is flawed ( beyond repair for some ).
Unlike , say , GITS SAC2ndgig i'm not feelign that "new feelign" when it comes to show the world & the characters that live in it . IN GITS SAC , after the events of the first season, we had a certain understanding of the world and of the chartacters and the 2nd season , improved our perspective by making more stories on the characters while giving us another viewpoint on their society .
PP2 does the opposite by recycling facts and setups we already know without altering either the conclusion not the consequences.i guess i would be more forgiving if i had only the point of view of the rookie inspector... but the show actually showcase everyone sides and motivations clear for us and the forshadowing isn't actually subtle.
I'm waiting for PP to show new things , new situations , new problems
Crash Station
Member
Designs are mocked as racist and fans of the manga aren't too happy about the censorship (may no longer be relevant with the CR uncensored releases).
Haven't watched the most recent episode yet, but I did like 3 and 4 even if the animation should be better, especially for such a fight-heavy series.
The tone dissonance is definitely there in Blood-C. The director had nothing to do with the movie (that was the Psycho-Pass director! RIP...), and I think the way scenes are presented are different in a very obvious way.
One of the examples I can think of would be the infamous bus scene in episode 3, where Saya mostly just stands there and does nothing, emotionless until the worst possible outcome occurs. It was done in a really slow way, specifically for "dramatic" effect, but there's really no reason why there would be any attachment to the character, so most of it feels like "ROFLMAO, is she for real?! OMG, she's STILL standing there! LOL!" to me.
Now, on its own, that might just be a poor attempt at tension, or a stupid scene. But there's clearly an ongoing trend throughout the series leading up to the climax. Saya being blissfully unaware even though the audience is, and things get worse and worse in increasingly silly and over the top ways. At some point it is clear that it's not a serious action drama, but a sort of twisted black comedy. This is quite clear when the show decides to show it's full hand in the finale, with the way the deaths are portrayed, how each character over-dramatically "reveals" their betrayals, only to get a hilariously grotesque comeuppance. The entire sequence right at the end is both exciting (if the audience is at that point invested in the twisted relationship between Saya and Fumito), and also hilarious and insane (because of all the wacky ass gore going on everywhere in the background and foreground). I think these elements are the director's strongest suites - the ability to juggle various potential reactions from audiences without specifically making a scene spell out if it's supposed to be "serious" or "humorous".
If we're looking for comparisons in direction between GuP and Shirobako though, I think one interesting comparison is the breakdown Aoi undergoes in episode 3 of Shirobako. Compare that with the breakdown Miho has in the first episode of GuP where she gets deadeyes and the scenes just flip on and on with that expression on her face showing how she has totally lost it. That's the sort of gag the director likes to pull too.
Obviously none of this will really convince someone to enjoy the show if the fundamental themes and the characters aren't engaging. That's not something that can really change. But I think it's worth pointing out the intent in tone.
ADV were the people who originally brought Pani Poni over, so it's possible.
On a side note, Bass; you keep saying "DVD" release over and over. Do you not buy BDs? Are there people in this thread who continue to buy anime on DVD even when a BD version is available? I'm curious, since that just seems so strange to me. BD players are very cheap these days, so it can't be a cost thing like it was in the early days of BDs...
Yeah I have that Pani Poni boxset. Its a huge box though. Takes up so much space.
regarding dvds, they are just a bit cheaper. Some people dont care that much about hd anime.
R_thanatos
Member
Vanadis - 05
Alright episode , mostly because they didn't cut too much ( or at all ) on the story this time.
So let's check
-2 vanadis acting like children : check
-Number of times our MC has seen a vanadis naked : 2 <- this counter won't go up as fast as you think it would.
-Number of times our MC has seen a woman naked : 3 <- this counter will go up faster than you think.
-Bear disguises are as powerfull as the benches in assassin creed.
-Always have your tea set on you , could be usefull when you're on a snow moutain.
It was alright , thank god they didn't cut the " who did you just think of" scene. I would have written a RANT longer than possible by animegaf standards if they did.
Alright episode , mostly because they didn't cut too much ( or at all ) on the story this time.
So let's check
-2 vanadis acting like children : check
-Number of times our MC has seen a vanadis naked : 2 <- this counter won't go up as fast as you think it would.
-Number of times our MC has seen a woman naked : 3 <- this counter will go up faster than you think.
-Bear disguises are as powerfull as the benches in assassin creed.
-Always have your tea set on you , could be usefull when you're on a snow moutain.
Someone likes her bears too much.
It was alright , thank god they didn't cut the " who did you just think of" scene. I would have written a RANT longer than possible by animegaf standards if they did.
I'm sure I'll end up picking up Pani Poni down the line, though I'll probably just go with Funimation's SAVE DVD set. Saves on space.
I really can't fathom not caring about HD anime; why get something in inferior quality just because it's a little cheaper? I can understand in the case of upscales, but otherwise? Well, everyone's different I guess...
R_thanatos
Member
I've stopped buying dvd since years ago. Last dvd i've bought was the Natsume book of friends season 1 & 2 set.
Now i'm buying blu-rays, much better quality and audio ( usually since we still have some weird releases )
The S.A.V.E sets are horrible. a true crime against dvds and blu-ray cases.
That green bar that kill the presentation on a product.
Aren't the covers typically reversible?
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