Just pointing out that the US is far from unique in this instance.
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Father of 4 detained by ICE while dropping his kids off at school
- Thread starter Killthee
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Just pointing out that the US is far from unique in this instance.
Black Mamba
Member
They probably came here legally and overstayed their visas. Which is actually a bigger issue than border crossings.
Other countries aren't the United States. We're a nation of immigrants. People fled persecution to create this place.
Also, other places aren't the US or like the US. We're the biggest economic and military power in the world. For an intents and purposes, we are the center of the world. So other countries are irrelevant to this discussion.
Yeah I guess a lot of non-Americans view the situation as a bit odd because of the lack of an American lens to view it through.
Do you think there should be any requirement for becoming a US citizen then?
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
I don't think most people would be complaining if they caught people who just got here illegally got deported, or people who actually committed serious crimes, but tossing out people like this is just harmful to the US as a whole and quite frankly, pretty goddamn evil.
boring accountant
Banned
I respect and appreciate your viewpoint. My small point would be that a person enjoying the benefits of citizenship unfairly when someone following the rules does not get that benefit is the difficult part to swallow.
Also, tax minimization is not illegal. Tax evasion is. Trump is not evading taxes, he is using legal framework to reduce them. The same way every single person does. Illegal immigration on the other hand is illegal and there should be no positive benefit from it, for anyone.
You guys can't decide international comparators are valid only when it suits your argument. Apart from the indigenous people, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are all countries of immigrants. Like most developed countries though they enforce their immigration laws to a greater extent than the US.
What does being the "economic and military power" of the world have to do with anything? Your social services are pretty shit btw.
Black Mamba
Member
Of course!
I think people should have to apply to come here. The system needs a major overhaul to make it easier. And of course, there should be some level of vetting.
I'm fine with deporting people who are caught crossing the border. Of course, I also believe we should give these people less of a reason to cross (and by that I mean helping Mexico and making it a better place to live).
But I don't believe in ruining the lives that exist here and have existed for years and sometimes decades. I don't believe the children of these people should be punished.
It's fine to have rules as long as the rules are mostly fair. But we also have to have empathy.
I forgot about the tens of millions of people trying to move to New Zealand, Canada, and Australia each year.
The "economic and military power" part is supposed to clue you in to the fact that a shit ton of people specifically want to move to the US because we are the center of the world.
You don't see people moving in large scale from Los Angeles to Rural America just like you don't see people trying to move from the US in large scale to Zambia. It works the other way around.
There's no need. America provides jobs for these people, because no one else wants to do them. Americans like things cheap..that comes from immigrant labor. We are forgetting that with this crackdown. It's been ok for decades to do just what he did. It's a way of life here. "I need to move some heavy stuff.. Bah I'll just go to home Depot and get some laborers"
But Trump convinced a bunch of bigots that they are the reason coal is disappearing. So you have this ramp up. This isn't an isolated family. There are probably hundreds of thousands or millions..they all aren't from Mexico either.
It is absolutely disgusting to pull.the rug out from under these people all of a sudden. A dui doesn't make you a criminal for the rest of uour life. You paid the price and faced justice, that you wouldn't have, if you had a good lawyer. All these people say the law is the law, yet have no concept of what it means to pay a debt to society when it comes to law.
You're always bad.God forbid anyone make a mistake in life, and face legal punishment. Then right their life and have a family
Shadow Puppetry
Member
Do elaborate what benefits illegal immigrants get more than those that follow the rules.
The connection between the US having a minimal welfare state and its minimal immigration enforcement is an interesting thought. Would people trade jus soli for universal health care and a larger social safety net? Would there be such an aversion for greater social programs?
You're right and individual cases from any similar country should warrant it's own thread for a discussion.
In this particular instance though, the question of whether ICE are justified in their decision is not so cut & dry.
First off, "illegal" is incorrect terminology. Undocumented immigrants are not criminals for being undocumented. The case is a civil one, not a criminal one. You're falling for political rhetoric by using the "illegal" misnomer.
Second, "no positive benefit"? His kids benefit from his presence. Customers at the restaurant he cooks for benefit. His community benefits. Who is benefited by deporting him? No one. Yes, there are rules in place, but a rule's existence does not guarantee it is a just rule, and beyond that, rules without the wisdom to know how and when to apply them are worthless to a fair-minded society.
Are we having a racism off? Or are you just venting in are thread about a father being arrested in front of his children?
I mean this seems like a sensible option which is why it's not being implemented.
Right, I agree. And it somewhat stems from the 14th Amendment. Like I said, I don't mind it either way, I'm not one bit concerned about immigrants taking jobs or committing crimes or anything of that nature, I'm totally fine with it staying exactly as it is, but a very large reason we don't deport people is because they have kids, which are American citizens, and splitting up a family is bad economically, ethically and optically. So lots of people stay and build normalish lives. Just to become pawns later down the line and have their lives upended again. Like this guy.
So my thinking is this, I don't believe being lax on immigration or strict on immigration is a right or wrong thing morally. They both have pros and cons and I'm ok with people who hold either opinion. That said, having birthright citizenship and wanting to be strict on immigration is counterintuitive. I do not believe there is a humane, fair and ethical way to keep the 14th as is and be hard on illegal immigration. I don't think it's possible. And working the direction we are, which is ramping up enforcement while not changing the 14th just means that this story will be played out many times in the future over and over. Whereas if we were changing the 14th first and then ramping up enforcement I think things would be a little more humane because then everyone after that point would have no, zero, pre-conceived idea of them getting to stay or even of their children getting citizenship and getting to stay without them. Keeping things as they are makes everything "grey."
Me personally, I don't mind immigration at all, frankly I get pissed at the free flow of capital but restrictions on the flow of people, I find the whole thing hypocritical.
But a person's child has broken no laws, he or she didn't immigrate here illegally.
Look at it another way, to make a child born in the United States not an American citizen we ourselves would have to ignore our own constitution!
Oh no I just think people need to stop using that term. It's incredibly insensitive.
And this is the thread you decided to go on that tangent?
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
EDIT: my google fu is weak
thanks it's very helpfull! Don't you have way of staying legally without being a citizen? it's a lot like that in my country, and people can live normally without being a citizen of the country
It was used in this thread so it's valid to call it out.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Considering that 99% of everyone here right now came from immigrants, yeah it's a perfectly valid descriptor. It's too late. Native Americans were already marginalized a long time ago. Unless you're trying to say only the native Americans are actual citizens and everyone else isn't. Like, I don't really get what you're trying to say here outside of trying to get some sort of really stretched gotchya against pro immigration stances.
Wow. Really dude?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Remember: they only become derails if you help out
Black Mamba
Member
Please do not fall for the troll's red herring.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Yeah, really. It's terrible what happened, but it's absolutely true. Conditions on reservations are horrible. Native Americans are in terrible shape because of how they've been treated. Just look at the pipeline for a recent example. It's weird you'd think otherwise, honestly.
Edit:
True enough. Has no place in this discussion anyway. Polari already made his intentions clear in this thread earlier anyway.
You thinking things are valid, doesn't always mean it's a good time to share. Especially with something that really has little to do with the context in which it was said, combined with the op. Most adults are aware of what settlers do to indigenous people. It's hardly a noteworthy call out. I think it's valid to point that out to you.
What happened to the Native Americans was indeed an incredibly fucked up thing, but that doesn't excuse the fact that America, the nation, which is a synonym for country, was built and is being built by immigrants.
We can't just say "Yeah it sucks that this guy who posed no threat was ripped away from his family, but don't forget Native Americans!"
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
NoRéN;231397519 said:
Should people only be allowed to think this is bad if they live near the people being rounded up?
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
NoRéN;231397519 said:
What exactly is the point you're trying to make here? Is the country really safer with this guy gone? The real criminals are usually better at hiding.
Should just reply, "If you think 9/11 was bad were you living in NYC or DC? No? Then what do you know?"
Thats not what I said at all - it's about the marginalisation of Native Americans through the (oft-repeated) notion that America is a nation of immigrants. But let's move on.
They didn't think it through. Where you live has no bearing on empathy.
StopMakingSense
Member
NoRéN;231397519 said:
I live in this area. This is fucking atrocious.
These areas voted for Clinton at 90+ percent.
Barrylocke
Member
1/3 years is a long time for the short term memory of voters and 2016 taught us that expecting people to vote for non self interests because of empathy is a folly. At best this will get some Hispanic potential voters that were apathetic in 2016 to start voting now, and maybe a few sympathizers. The rest is going to need a better plan to be swayed.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Personally, I always thought the idea that the US was a nation built by immigrants really whitewashes what happened to the African slaves as well.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Even legal experts who are sympathetic to how the term affects minorities know that there's some accuracy present in the term "illegal immigrant".
http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/should-i-use-the-term-illegal-immigrant
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
These are Trump's hardened criminals.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
I'm all for the IRS replacing ICE. My only beef with the undocumented are those who under report wages/dodge taxes and that taxpayers foot the bill for emergency medical treatment.
Other than that, immigration policy in the U.S. has always been racist as hell with Europeans riding the gravy train (Ellis Island era) while strict quotas were in place for those of African and Asian descent.
And so many white immigrants overstay their visas and are pretty much invisible after the fact due to being white. This whole "illegal" fervor unfairly overlooks them and targets visible minorities obviously.
Other than that, immigration policy in the U.S. has always been racist as hell with Europeans riding the gravy train (Ellis Island era) while strict quotas were in place for those of African and Asian descent.
And so many white immigrants overstay their visas and are pretty much invisible after the fact due to being white. This whole "illegal" fervor unfairly overlooks them and targets visible minorities obviously.
Saw this on Twitter.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...s_58b8920fe4b0d2821b4cc632?oakr09x07hu5mnp14i
So, even if you're a DREAMER, you shouldn't speak out or you will face deportation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...s_58b8920fe4b0d2821b4cc632?oakr09x07hu5mnp14i
So, even if you're a DREAMER, you shouldn't speak out or you will face deportation.
That's on the governments for fostering those kinds of expectations over the long term then. Criminalizing everyone who ever took part in this status quo is absolutely not the solution, of course.
This would be the equivalent to arresting anyone who ever pirated something online.
(I probably wouldn't hold it above Trump to enforce that as well, but only on minorities like the war on drugs)
theignoramus
Member
Slave patrolmen were just following orders too.
CyclopsRock
Member
Everyone's blaming ICE but surely they're just shmucks doing what they can to make a living, just like the chap in the OP who illegally entered the US. They're only doing it because that's what the law tells them to. If you want a giant amnesty, or to effectively have an open door immigration policy, then you'll need to pass legislation to that effect, not simply expect ICE to selectively interpret the law that exists, no?
It's easy to say, "eh, they're just doing their jobs" when you're not dreading every single day because you're not sure if your life will be destroyed.
Tomorrow I hope to have a normal day out when I go watch Logan. But my worst nightmare is that my parents will be arrested, or that I might be arrested since even having DACA isn't stopping ICE right now. So I either have a decent time watching a movie or my life is destroyed, I've honestly don't know which it will be, and every day since Trump got sworn in has been like this for me.
But they're just doing their jobs, so it's okay.
I hope you never have to deal with such uncertainty.
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