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[CountAntonius]

Fucking repulsive.

 

[CyclopsRock]

But they're just doing their jobs, so it's okay.

I don't understand why you're presenting this false dichotomy. I didn't say "it's ok" because they're doing their jobs. I said that if you think it isn't ok, what needs changing is the law, not the personnel implementing it. Law enforcement shouldn't be legislating ad-hoc based on their own moral compass. The US has a fairly complicated set of checks and balances on law making, and those that write and sign those laws are accountable to the public. That system shouldn't be circumvented by law enforcement officers. That doesn't mean everything they do is "ok". It means you're blaming the wrong people.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't understand why you're presenting this false dichotomy. I didn't say "it's ok" because they're doing their jobs. I said that if you think it isn't ok, what needs changing is the law, not the personnel implementing it. Law enforcement shouldn't be legislating ad-hoc based on their own moral compass. The US has a fairly complicated set of checks and balances on law making, and those that write and sign those laws are accountable to the public. That system shouldn't be circumvented by law enforcement officers. That doesn't mean everything they do is "ok". It means you're blaming the wrong people.

They weren't conscripted.

 

[Einchy]

I don't understand why you're presenting this false dichotomy. I didn't say "it's ok" because they're doing their jobs. I said that if you think it isn't ok, what needs changing is the law, not the personnel implementing it. Law enforcement shouldn't be legislating ad-hoc based on their own moral compass. The US has a fairly complicated set of checks and balances on law making, and those that write and sign those laws are accountable to the public. That system shouldn't be circumvented by law enforcement officers. That doesn't mean everything they do is "ok". It means you're blaming the wrong people.

I can blame Trump and the person pulling the trigger for him.

What ICE does it downright evil and I will never not think it so. I was just following orders wasn't a good enough excuse back then, and it isn't one now.

 

[numble]

I don't understand why you're presenting this false dichotomy. I didn't say "it's ok" because they're doing their jobs. I said that if you think it isn't ok, what needs changing is the law, not the personnel implementing it. Law enforcement shouldn't be legislating ad-hoc based on their own moral compass. The US has a fairly complicated set of checks and balances on law making, and those that write and sign those laws are accountable to the public. That system shouldn't be circumvented by law enforcement officers. That doesn't mean everything they do is "ok". It means you're blaming the wrong people.

Actually, the recent policies and change in policies come unilaterally from the executive branch, i.e. the ones enforcing the law. Can you show me what new laws have been passed to lead to the change in enforcement?

 

[boring accountant]

I can blame Trump and the person pulling the trigger for him.

What ICE does it downright evil and I will never not think it so. I was just following orders wasn't a good enough excuse back then, and it isn't one now.

If ICE is evil, what in your mind is the best solution to deal with a family such as yours which you described in your prior post?

 

[CyclopsRock]

They weren't conscripted.

surely they're just shmucks doing what they can to make a living, just like the chap in the OP who illegally entered the US.

I wasn't claiming they were under the jack boot of the state. My whole point is that they're implementing the law of the land. If you don't like it, blame those that wrote (or ideally try to have changed) the law of the land. I don't understand why everyone seems so hostile to the idea of holding those actually responsible to account here. Implementation of the law shouldn't occur or not occur at the whims of some guy in a car no one chose.

 

[Ensirius]

Land of the free

 

[Einchy]

If ICE is evil, what in your mind is the best solution to deal with a family such as yours which you described in your prior post?

Just let us live our lives in peace, is that so much to ask for? We've been in America since 1999, we aren't making anyone's life worse, so why make ours a living nightmare?

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Boohoo.

That's the job they applied for, interviewed for, and so dutifully carried out after tailing a father dropping his children off at school, and I'm sure taking the pay.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure feel fucking safer now! Right??

They're scum.

Did we hear of stories like this before Trump? You think all ICE agents were just waiting for the chance to go rogue and follow people to elementary schools?

Kinda weird to take the stance so many are taking here when we have military personnel carrying out drone strikes against people we have no clue about whether they are actually involved with terrorists. Why no call for our soldiers to quit and are they scum?

 

[boring accountant]

Just let us live our lives in peace, is that so much to ask for? We've been in America since 1999, we aren't making anyone's life worse, so why make ours a living nightmare?

I have no ill will toward you nor do I wish to antagonize you. I am merely interested in a conversation.

You don't believe there should be repercussions for people who illegally enter a country's borders and take advantage of services and conveniences paid for by the citizens of that country?

Why not let anyone from any country do the same thing as your family? Why is yours special in that regard?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I wasn't claiming they were under the jack boot of the state. My whole point is that they're implementing the law of the land. If you don't like it, blame those that wrote (or ideally try to have changed) the law of the land. I don't understand why everyone seems so hostile to the idea of holding those actually responsible to account here. Implementation of the law shouldn't occur or not occur at the whims of some guy in a car no one chose.

It's possible to direct ire toward both the flawed institutions and those who join up with them.

 

[numble]

I have no ill will toward you nor do I wish to antagonize you. I am merely interested in a conversation.

You don't believe there should be repercussions for people who illegally enter a country's borders and take advantage of services and conveniences paid for by the citizens of that country?

Why not let anyone from any country do the same thing as your family? Why is yours special in that regard?

What services and conveniences are paid for by citizens and not by him and his family? Note that an undocumented person can pay taxes using an ITIN and non-citizens with green cards or on work visas can pay taxes as well.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I have no ill will toward you nor do I wish to antagonize you. I am merely interested in a conversation.

You don't believe there should be repercussions for people who illegally enter a country's borders and take advantage of services and conveniences paid for by the citizens of that country?

Why not let anyone from any country do the same thing as your family? Why is yours special in that regard?

Honest question, how do taxes work with this in the US? Are they taken out of a paycheck by the employer already?

Because it seems they are paying social security: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

It works like this: Many immigrants who aren’t authorized to work in the United States buy fake Social Security cards and present them to their employers, who either don’t know they are fake or don’t look too closely. When the employer submits a W-2 form and a tax payment on those workers’ behalf to the Social Security Administration, the federal government holds onto those payroll taxes, even if the Social Security number isn’t linked to anyone on file. And then, a large chunk of that money ends up in the Social Security trust funds, from which retirement benefits are doled out to aging Americans.

The American system seems very strange in this, that this is possible at all actually. So you have a situation where illegal immigrants get a job, the employer pays social security and the employee never gets it later on.

If it is the same with income tax, then they are paying for it.

If the US wants to tighten this stuff, they need to offer a grace period for people already there and a quick path to citizenship.

 

[Einchy]

I have no ill will toward you nor do I wish to antagonize you. I am merely interested in a conversation.

You don't believe there should be repercussions for people who illegally enter a country's borders and take advantage of services and conveniences paid for by the citizens of that country?

Why not let anyone from any country do the same thing as your family? Why is yours special in that regard?

Can you tell me which services and conveniences my parents took advantage of? Because from what I've seen, they've been paying taxes for a country that doesn't ever help them back, and now is hunting them like animals.

Let me ask you this: what do you have to gain from removing my parents and me from this county? We've lived here for 18 years, did you notice your life getting worse 18 years ago, will you notice is get better if we're gone?

If any other family was able to prove that they could live in a country for 18 years, pay taxes and not commit crimes, then yeah, why would you want to stop them?

 

[ReplacementPelican]

It's good to know that not everybody in the US voted for this. It's live Brexit.

The difference is... Although we're leaving the EU were not doing it like a bunch of cruel xenophobic nutters. An sad the fear had won

Well, that and the fact that despite wanted to do something stupid we didn't elect a fucking nutter and instead said 'fucking nutter' couldn't even win his own constituency. Soz Nige.

 

[boring accountant]

Can you tell me which services and conveniences my parents took advantage of? Because from what I've seen, they've been paying taxes for a country that doesn't ever help them back, and now is hunting them like animals.

Let me ask you this: what do you have to gain from removing my parents and me from this county? We've lived here for 18 years, did you notice your life getting worse 18 years ago, will you notice is get better if we're gone?

If any other family was able to prove that they could live in a country for 18 years, pay taxes and not commit crimes, then yeah, why would you want to stop them?

I can only say that you responded to my questions with your own questions which is a typical non-response. If you believe that you should be given full amnesty, you can say so. It's not that I don't understand your position, I just feel that if I asked you about other situations where people break the laws or take shortcuts in a system, you would most likely expect that there are repercussions. So then I would ask why there shouldn't be in your case.

I only mean these as a conversation point and not a true solution, but what if your family was for example barred from being able to get a license, or maybe passport, or had to pay a fine, or wasn't eligible for credit. Would some sort of penalty be feasible for you? Or you still believe that there should be no consequences for your parents?

Since you didn't respond to my last post I realize you may not to this so at the least I hope you consider this side of the conversation.

 

[numble]

I can only say that you responded to my questions with your own questions which is a typical non-response. If you believe that you should be given full amnesty, you can say so. It's not that I don't understand your position, I just feel that if I asked you about other situations where people break the laws or take shortcuts in a system, you would most likely expect that there are repercussions. So then I would ask why there shouldn't be in your case.

I only mean these as a conversation point and not a true solution, but what if your family was for example barred from being able to get a license, or maybe passport, or had to pay a fine, or wasn't eligible for credit. Would some sort of penalty be feasible for you? Or you still believe that there should be no consequences for your parents?

Since you didn't respond to my last post I realize you may not to this so at the least I hope you consider this side of the conversation.

Aren't there already consequences as they do not enjoy many of the services and conveniences you seem to believe that they do enjoy? Of course a non-citizen already cannot get a US passport, are you somehow assuming that they can do that now?

 

[thehypocrite]

You have to be a special kind of heartless to be working at ICE.

There's deporting those who are clear dangers, and then there's trying to convince yourself that you're really the good guy in the movie when you rip families like these apart.

"Just following orders" this is some Milgram experiment at scale.

 

[boring accountant]

Aren't there already consequences as they do not enjoy many of the services and conveniences you seem to believe that they do enjoy? Of course a non-citizen already cannot get a US passport, are you somehow assuming that they can do that now?

My scenario was under the assumption that the people in question would be identified and given the choice to leave the country or stay but with some sort of penalty. Stay meaning a path to being fully documented or even citizenship. So if they were allowed eventual citizenship but never allowed to travel for example.

Again just a conversation point, not something meant to be taken as a literal solution.

 

[thehypocrite]

I have no ill will toward you nor do I wish to antagonize you. I am merely interested in a conversation.

You don't believe there should be repercussions for people who illegally enter a country's borders and take advantage of services and conveniences paid for by the citizens of that country?

Why not let anyone from any country do the same thing as your family? Why is yours special in that regard?

I don't think that cause borders are arbitrary. A fiction build by the strength and abuse of their weaker neighbors. They take advantage less than any other citizens while receiving none of the subsidies that they do but contributing the same or more than them. Everyone that desires to move to improve their lives should do it. Who am I to tell them not try to make a better live for yourself and your family?

 

[thehypocrite]

I wasn't claiming they were under the jack boot of the state. My whole point is that they're implementing the law of the land. If you don't like it, blame those that wrote (or ideally try to have changed) the law of the land. I don't understand why everyone seems so hostile to the idea of holding those actually responsible to account here. Implementation of the law shouldn't occur or not occur at the whims of some guy in a car no one chose.

That's exactly the excuse presented by German generals once they saw that Hitler was going down. "Just following rules". They both are responsible. Following blindly the rules of the land are not what a democracy is about nor how is sustained. Heck, the US was founded on actually not obeying the rules of a monarch for being unjust to the people.

 

[boring accountant]

I don't think that cause borders are arbitrary. A fiction build by the strength and abuse of their weaker neighbors. They take advantage less than any other citizens while receiving none of the subsidies that they do but contributing the same or more than them. Everyone that desires to move to improve their lives should do it. Who am I to tell them not try to make a better live for yourself and your family?

I'm not sure if I am reading your post correctly.
You are suggesting an open border policy where anyone with any reason can enter as a legal resident?

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

That's exactly the excuse presented by German generals once they saw that Hitler was going down. "Just following rules". They both are responsible. Following blindly the rules of the land are not what a democracy is about nor how is sustained. Heck, the US was founded on actually not obeying the rules of a monarch for being unjust to the people.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of nazi soldiers faced a small punishment if any after the war right, sometimes just a fine. They were just following orders and didn't face many repercussions. Are you saying ICE agents are on the same level as Hitler's generals? That's a pretty fucking big leap.

And again what about our own soldiers and drone strikes on civilians? Have you been calling for our soldiers to quit as many are with these ICE agents?

 

[Yamauchi]

Crappy situation, but how does someone live illegally in a country for 20 years? I grew up around expats in different parts of Asia, and foreigners were usually deported within days or weeks of their visas expiring. In Indonesia, foreigners are required by law to carry their passports at all times, so if they didn't have any visa at all (is this what you call 'undocumented'?), they'd also be deported quickly.

 

[thehypocrite]

I'm not sure if I am reading your post correctly.
You are suggesting an open border policy where anyone with any reason can enter as a legal resident?

I just responded to your posts. The issue isn't a hypothetical. They are already here so what actions do you take? I say that the border policy is immaterial cause they already went through it. Thus, your response shouldn't be well they didn't entered the "right" way cause the right way isn't even fixed and has changed many times for not even justified reasons. Instead, try to fully integrate those that are already among you.

 

[Any Questions]

Well, that and the fact that despite wanted to do something stupid we didn't elect a fucking nutter and instead said 'fucking nutter' couldn't even win his own constituency. Soz Nige.

Nigel is moving to NY and Trump tower to continue his abnoxious ranting

 

[Fantastapotamus]

It's actually a requirement to have your soul and humanity removed before you can start working for ICE. True fact.

 

[thehypocrite]

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of nazi soldiers faced a small punishment after the war right, sometimes just a fine. They were just following orders and didn't face many repercussions.

And again what about our own soldiers and drone strikes on civilians? Have you been calling for our soldiers to quit as many are with these ICE agents?

Sounds like the excuse worked then. Super effective. What's with the whataboutism. If I don't have a "right" answer for that then I don't have merit to complain about this? I think people should not use the "just following rules excuse" to justify things that they wouldn't impose on themselves to others. You are an individual, the actions that you take are an expression of you. Thus, you must act in accordance to that fact.

 

[boring accountant]

I just responded to your posts. The issue isn't a hypothetical. They are already here so what actions do you take? I say that the border policy is immaterial cause they already went through it. Thus, your response shouldn't be well they didn't entered the "right" way cause the right way isn't even fixed and has changed many times for not even justified reasons. Instead, try to fully integrate those that are already among you.

There are thousands of people a year who go through the right way who don't get that chance. I have worked with people who have advanced degrees and professional licenses that weren't able to win the visa lottery and had to return to their home country to try again or give up. These are highly skilled professionals that have things to offer a country. But if someone jumped a wall and laid low long enough to not get caught, they should be able to create a life here with no repercussions?

I simply disagree. Those people must face consequences or what is the point of there being a system at all.

 

[numble]

There are thousands of people a year who go through the right way who don't get that chance. I have worked with people who have advanced degrees and professional licenses that weren't able to win the visa lottery and had to return to their home country to try again or give up. These are highly skilled professionals that have things to offer a country. But if someone jumped a wall and laid low long enough to not get caught, they should be able to create a life here with no repercussions?

I simply disagree. Those people must face consequences or what is the point of there being a system at all.

But you already proposed some consequences such as not being able to get a US passport. That consequence already applies to them.

By the way, you keep using terminology such as "illegally enter" and "jumped a wall". Most undocumented immigrants legally entered and just overstayed their visas. You are buying into the idea that building or expanding a wall would actually deter people.

 

[boring accountant]

But you already proposed some consequences such as not being able to get a US passport. That consequence already applies to them.

By the way, you keep using terminology such as "illegally enter" and "jumped a wall". Most undocumented immigrants legally entered and just overstayed their visas. You are buying into the idea that building or expanding a wall would actually deter people.

That consequence was after the fact that they are actually apprehended. The apprehension has to happen first. Saying they can't get a passport because they are on the run from authorities and it would give them up is not a consequence. It is a sacrifice they are willing to make to avoid apprehension. They must actually be given the chance to take responsibility for their actions. The option to not have a passport is something we would propose based on specific circumstances, not something they get to decide for themselves.

Also I am using the most common and easy to understand phrases for brevity's sake. I understand fully well the point you are trying to make and purposely referred to the expired status people in my first post in this discussion. The point is irrelevant regardless.

 

[thehypocrite]

There are thousands of people a year who go through the right way who don't get that chance. I have worked with people who have advanced degrees and professional licenses that weren't able to win the visa lottery and had to return to their home country to try again or give up. These are highly skilled professionals that have things to offer a country. But if someone jumped a wall and laid low long enough didn't get caught, they should be able to create a life here with no repercussions?

I simply disagree. Those people must face consequences or what is the point of there being a system at all.

So what? Good for them that were in a position in which you could abide by their arbitrary rules that were created to pander to their political constituents. Not everyone has the same latitude nor situations to do it. No need to complain about others methods. The fiction under which you operate in which these people face no consequences already doesn't correlate with reality. They and their children reckon with those consequences every waking moment of their lives. At times, the system breakdown and the solution to a broken system has never been more injustice. I'm also sure those highly skilled professionals are also in a better situation in their country of origin than the wall jumpers that bother you so much, but you don't incorporate that into your argument cause it contradicts your sob storyline of their lives.


Plus, doesn't simple disagree, this would be a better conversation if we both explained the reasons why we disagree and examined the merits of our position. Engage.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Sounds like the excuse worked then. Super effective. What's with the whataboutism. If I don't have a "right" answer for that then I don't have merit to complain about this? I think people should not use the "just following rules excuse" to justify things that they wouldn't impose on themselves to others. You are an individual, the actions that you take are an expression of you. Thus, you must act in accordance to that fact.

Some of us realize people aren't in the position to up and quit a job because leadership changes direction. I wouldn't impose random marijuana tests on myself but I have had to send people to get drug tested as it was company policy. Should I have quit the job? Many police officers hate doing prostitution stings and speed traps as they feel its a waste of time and resources, should they quit? Should our soldiers quit when asked to carry out many acts they wouldn't perform on US citizens?

But of course you have no answer, just complaints.

 

[numble]

That consequence was after the fact that they are actually apprehended. The apprehension has to happen first. Saying they can't get a passport because they are on the run from authorities and it would give them up is not a consequence. It is a sacrifice they are willing to make to avoid apprehension. They must actually be given the chance to take responsibility for their actions.

Also I am using the most common and easy to understand phrases for brevity's sake. I understand fully well the point you are trying to make and purposely referred to the expired status people in my first post in this discussion. The point is irrelevant regardless.

It isn't irrelevant, because a big policy point is that undocumented immigrants are pouring in due to weak border controls and building a wall will solve much of the problem.

How is not being able to enjoy the same services and conveniences, having difficulty getting jobs, etc. not a consequence of their status? The people that you spoke about that did not win the visa lottery and had to go back could also choose to overstay their visas, but they did not want to face the consequences of overstaying their visa. You indeed face consequences by choosing this status (and many children did not choose it), it does not mean that an undocumented status means a reward of great services and conveniences and no negative consequences.

 

[Gattsu25]

The people doing this are scum of the earth. It's so sad to see families demolished like this.

I'm reminded of Jim Crow era laws/policies that sought to split black families apart.

Sessions' fingerprints are all over this.

 

[thehypocrite]

Some of us realize people aren't in the position to up and quit a job because leadership changes direction. I wouldn't impose random marijuana tests on myself but I have had to send people to get drug tested as it was company policy. Should I have quit the job? Many police officers hate doing prostitution stings and speed traps as they feel its a waste of time and resources, should they quit? Should our soldiers quit when asked to carry out many acts they wouldn't perform on US citizens?

But of course you have no answer, just complaints.

I never said they should get up and quit. Now you are creating imaginary arguments and responding to them. If you think that your response has to be to quit do so, If you disagree intrinsically with things that are wrong don't try to pretend that they are right cause "them the rules" that's not how it works. You can also oppose that which you consider to be unfair and not quit, there are multiple ways in which you can stand up for what you think is right instead of simply following rules you disagree. I'm not Sorry I didn't humor your whataboutism but I did respond to your post honestly.

 

[MUnited83]

Yeah let's blame the workers for the directives given from their superiors. I guess all the ICE workers should just quit right? I mean, who cares about the families they are trying to support, they are all just scum.

Lmao, people can fuck off with that shut. You don't fucking get to justify your morally repugnant shit under the cover of "I'm getting paid for it so it's fine".

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Some of us realize people aren't in the position to up and quit a job because leadership changes direction. I wouldn't impose random marijuana tests on myself but I have had to send people to get drug tested as it was company policy. Should I have quit the job? Many police officers hate doing prostitution stings and speed traps as they feel its a waste of time and resources, should they quit? Should our soldiers quit when asked to carry out many acts they wouldn't perform on US citizens?

But of course you have no answer, just complaints.

What great examples!
A slight inconvenience and a "waste of time and resources". Yep, that's comparable with ruining human lives and tearing families apart. Totally.

And yes, if soldiers are asked to perform tasks that are against the law they absolutely should quit their job or face the consequences.

 

[boring accountant]

So what? Good for them that were in a position in which you could abide by their arbitrary rules that were created to pander to their political constituents. Not everyone has the same latitude nor situations to do it. No need to complain about others methods. The fiction under which you operate in which these people face no consequences already doesn't correlate with reality. They and their children reckon with those consequences every waking moment of their lives. At times, the system breakdown and the solution to a broken system has never been more injustice. I'm also sure those highly skilled professionals are also in a better situation in their country of origin than the wall jumpers that bother you so much, but you don't incorporate that into your argument cause it contradicts your sob storyline of their lives.


Plus, doesn't simple disagree, this would be a better conversation if we both explained the reasons why we disagree and examined the merits of our position. Engage.

I don't understand what to engage. You are making posts saying there should be no borders, that people who cheated the system should get a free prize, and people who play by the rules are in your mind probably better off either way so what does it matter if they don't get what they want.

Your points are so naive and inconsistent that I can't actually engage them. My reasons are simple. Currently there are rules to get in this country. If you break them and get caught, there will be consequences. The end. Don't break them if you don't want to face the consequences.

If someone enjoyed 18 years here with no consequences, that's great. Hopefully those 18 years equipped you well enough to deal with the consequences in case you finally do have to pay the price you avoided for that long.

 

[numble]

If someone enjoyed 18 years here with no consequences, that's great. Hopefully those 18 years equipped you well enough to deal with the consequences in case you finally do have to pay the price you avoided for that long.

Again, why do you think they have faced no consequences?

For the people you know, the "people who have advanced degrees and professional licenses that weren't able to win the visa lottery and had to return to their home country", would you seriously tell them that overstaying their visas would mean no consequences unless you get caught?

 

[boring accountant]

Again, why do you think they have faced no consequences?

For the people you know, the "people who have advanced degrees and professional licenses that weren't able to win the visa lottery and had to return to their home country", would you seriously tell them that overstaying their visas would mean no consequences unless you get caught?

Those consequences are irrelevant. They are not the true consequences of a sovereign country. If a person cheats on a test and feels guilty for the entire year or wets their pants, those were consequences they brought on themselves due to their irresponsible actions. When they are eventually caught, they will still be failed or expelled. They don't get compensation for having felt bad everyday or ruining a pair of pants.

I'm not sure what consequences you think they are paying since the legal authorities haven't had a chance to judge and assign consequences.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I never said they should get up and quit. Now you are creating imaginary arguments and responding to them. If you think that your response has to be to quit do so, If you disagree intrinsically with things that are wrong don't try to pretend that they are right cause "them the rules" that's not how it works. You can also oppose that which you consider to be unfair and not quit, there are multiple ways in which you can stand up for what you think is right instead of simply following rules you disagree. I'm not Sorry I didn't humor your whataboutism but I did respond to your post honestly.

So what is an agent to do if they don't want to arrest someone, but not doing so will of course mean his job is now in danger?

I think it is very unfair to put blame on individual agents here. As long as they do their job professionally and with respect to the people they unfortunately are ordered to arrest, I won't personally blame them, since I understand they don't have the power and authority to make that call.

Do you really want a situation where individual agents and other government personal make a case by case choice who to arrest when that is not their job? They might not even have the full information on the case, since they do the ground work.

By all means, if these agents want to strike because they disagree with the policy set out by the government, I'd be in full support of that. But having them make decisions on individual cases is not a thing to advocate for.

Those consequences are irrelevant. They are not the true consequences of a sovereign country. If a person cheats on a test and feels guilty for the entire year or wets their pants, those were consequences they brought on themselves due to their irresponsible actions. When they are eventually caught, they will still be failed or expelled. They don't get compensation for having felt bad everyday or ruining a pair of pants.

I'm not sure what consequences you think they are paying since the legal authorities haven't had a chance to judge and assign consequences.

Have a bit of empathy man. By all means, if you want stricter immigration control, that is OK. But you do that for future arrivals, and then work out how to deal with the people already here and not split up families and such.

If someone has been here for decades, has a family, has a job, a stable life, is it really in the countries best interest to deport them, or maybe is it better to give them a path to citizenship?

 

[numble]

Those consequences are irrelevant. They are not the true consequences of a sovereign country. If a person cheats on a test and feels guilty for the entire year or wets their pants, those were consequences they brought on themselves due to their irresponsible actions. When they are eventually caught, they will still be failed or expelled. They don't get compensation for having felt bad everyday or ruining a pair of pants.

I'm not sure what consequences you think they are paying since the legal authorities haven't had a chance to judge and assign consequences.

So you actually told those people you know that there are no consequences to overstaying their visas?

If they overstayed their visa, they would not be able to return to their home country, because they would likely not be granted visas to come back to the US. You thought that not being able to travel was a potential consequence, it is already something faced.

If they overstayed their visa, they likely would not be able to work white collar jobs with their advanced degrees, as they would likely be rejected as soon as an I-9 was run.

If they overstayed their visa, they would not be able to enjoy services and conveniences, despite paying taxes.

These are not the true consequences of a sovereign nation?

 

[thehypocrite]

I don't understand what to engage. You are making posts saying there should be no borders, that people who cheated the system should get a free prize, and people who play by the rules are in your mind probably better off either way so what does it matter if they don't get what they want.

Your points are so naive and inconsistent that I can't actually engage them. My reasons are simple. Currently there are rules to get in this country. If you break them and get caught, there will be consequences. The end. Don't break them if you don't want to face the consequences.

If someone enjoyed 18 years here with no consequences, that's great. Hopefully those 18 years equipped you well enough to deal with the consequences in case you finally do have to pay the price you avoided for that long.

A free prize? Nothing is free in the land of the free. 18 years with no consequences? You continue to disregard reality cause it doesn't fit your narrative. They live with the consequences every day, they just prefer to deal with them. You characterize them as doing so great that I would be surprised if you weren't willing to trade places with them. Those wall hoppers got it so good that you're envious of their great social standing and benefits.

I'm the one that's naive, but the ones talking about border controls that are all ineffective isn't? C'mon, that makes no sense.

 

[boring accountant]

So you actually told those people you know that there are no consequences to overstaying their visas?

If they overstayed their visa, they would not be able to return to their home country, because they would likely not be granted visas to come back to the US. You thought that not being able to travel was a potential consequence, it is already something faced.

If they overstayed their visa, they likely would not be able to work white collar jobs with their advanced degrees, as they would likely be rejected as soon as an I-9 was run.

If they overstayed their visa, they would not be able to enjoy services and conveniences, despite paying taxes.

These are not the true consequences of a sovereign nation?

I genuinely have no idea what you are twisting my posts into. I cannot follow your logic or the point you are trying to make. Here is the summary.

There is a poster here that says his family entered this country illegally and has lived here for 18 years. They created a life here and enjoyed the benefits of this nation even though they did not follow the rules to actually enter.

There is another person I have worked with who followed every rule in the application process, that wants to provide services to this country and have a chance at making a life here. However, due to various reasons such as visa allotments they are denied and forced to keep trying, perhaps never actually succeeding in getting legal permission to enter.

In what world is the above scenario fair? The person who cheats gets in and the person who plays by the rules doesn't. Is the answer because we think one has more of a need to enter the country? Refugee visas do exist. There are paths for those in need. But there is no My Life Sucks Here How About There visa to apply for.

 

[numble]

I genuinely have no idea what you are twisting my posts into. I cannot follow your logic or the point you are trying to make. Here is the summary.

There is a poster here that says his family entered this country illegally and has lived here for 18 years. They created a life here and enjoyed the benefits of this nation even though they did not follow the rules to actually enter.

There is another person I have worked with who followed every rule in the application process, that wants to provide services to this country and have a chance at making a life here. However, due to various reasons such as visa allotments they are denied and forced to keep trying, perhaps never actually succeeding in getting legal permission to enter.

In what world is the above scenario fair? The person who cheats gets in and the person who plays by the rules doesn't. Is the answer because we think one has more of a need to enter the country?

I can only say that you responded to my questions with your own questions which is a typical non-response.

Can you quote where Einchy said his family entered this country illegally?

Would you advise the person that followed every rule that they would face no consequences (unless caught) if they entered on a non-immigration visa and overstayed their visa?

 

[thehypocrite]

So what is an agent to do if they don't want to arrest someone, but not doing so will of course mean his job is now in danger?

I think it is very unfair to put blame on individual agents here. As long as they do their job professionally and with respect to the people they unfortunately are ordered to arrest, I won't personally blame them, since I understand they don't have the power and authority to make that call.

Do you really want a situation where individual agents and other government personal make a case by case choice who to arrest when that is not their job? They might not even have the full information on the case, since they do the ground work.

By all means, if these agents want to strike because they disagree with the policy set out by the government, I'd be in full support of that. But having them make decisions on individual cases is not a thing to advocate for.

I don't think advocating for individual responsibilities is unfair. I also explained my position in regards to their thoughts on the rules themselves, not individual cases. I also disagree, you can be professional and violate the human rights of others, does that gives you a pass? How does the fact that you are being respectful absolves your individual responsibilities?

 

[boring accountant]

I can only say that you responded to my questions with your own questions which is a typical non-response.

Would you advise the person that followed every rule that they would face no consequences (unless caught) if they entered on a non-immigration visa and overstayed their visa?

What are you talking about? The person who follows every rule will not enter the country illegally. That is not a real scenario. Why is the person who is a law-abiding person trying to enter legally all of a sudden breaking the law and illegally entering a country? Why are you using that as your hypothetical scenario?

People who are denied visas don't all of a sudden throw their hands up in the air and say I'll take the next rowboat over and do it that way.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I genuinely have no idea what you are twisting my posts into. I cannot follow your logic or the point you are trying to make. Here is the summary.

There is a poster here that says his family entered this country illegally and has lived here for 18 years. They created a life here and enjoyed the benefits of this nation even though they did not follow the rules to actually enter.

There is another person I have worked with who followed every rule in the application process, that wants to provide services to this country and have a chance at making a life here. However, due to various reasons such as visa allotments they are denied and forced to keep trying, perhaps never actually succeeding in getting legal permission to enter.

In what world is the above scenario fair? The person who cheats gets in and the person who plays by the rules doesn't. Is the answer because we think one has more of a need to enter the country? Refugee visas do exist. There are paths for those in need. But there is no My Life Sucks Here How About There visa to apply for.

Do you think that person you know will get a visa after some people who entered illegally had their lives destroyed? You basically work on the assumption that two wrongs make one right. It sucks that your friend didn't get in, do you think he will feel vindicated after a bunch of people get kicked out? Do you think he sits at home thinking "Well, I didn't get in but at least people who lived there for 18 years or longer got kicked out!"
What a twisted way to see the world.