Support NeoGAF

[riotous]

Do you not need intent for murder in the states?

Completely different rules involved with what you get charged with depending on the State.

Some State's don't have much differentiation between any death related crime; it's all just lumped under murder.

I don't know if Georgia is like that, or the DA thinks they have an intent case here though.

 

[Walshicus]

I read this article a few months ago when this topic last came around, and it really changed my view on this subject. It's a fine line between negligence and an accident, and my view has swung toward the latter. Every incident is a bit different, but they tend to stem from people living their (busy, exhausting) lives and making a horrible, life altering mistake along the way. I have a hard time passing a harsh sentence upon them for it; losing your child is about as harsh as it gets.

Circumstances can change this, of course. But in this instance, I'm not sure what purpose additional punishment would serve.

This. People are fallible, and while it's easy to say that he *should* have remembered his child was in the car (because he *should* have), can anyone really say that there is literally no chance the same could happen to them?

 

[excowboy]

Everyone should read this article before commenting:

Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

Imho, these parents have already been given the worst sentence possible: they will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they were responsible for the death of their child. Any other punishment is basically superfluous.

As the father of a 16 month old, this is the most horrendous thing to read. What an awful thing to prosecute for murder - the sentence is already life, immutable and without parole, but the act is a long way form murder

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

People who leave their kids in a hot car knowingly should be sentenced for murder but not in this case.

On a related note I overheard some woman at the grocery store who told the cashier that somebody left their young child alone in the parking lot this morning. Luckily it was a underground lot but I still would've liked to slap the parent who did it.

Did they call the cops? Long time ago, during the age of 1980, I was frequently left in the car. Not during the hot summer months but I remember chilling in the car while my mom went into the store for 5 minutes. I don't think many people realize how dangerous and it used to be that not many people had access to get people to watch their kids. So, they adjusted. Not saying it was right but there are still people who take their kids to the casino and leave them in the car. I'm lucky to have an au pair but not everyone has access.

Makes me want to bring up the discussion on when it's okay to leave a kid home alone.

 

[chris121580]

The same way you leave your coffee on the counter, or forget your lunch in the fridge. Read the article.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. This is a human being that is 22 months old and at that age, requires a tremendous amount of attention. I just can't fathom forgetting your child is in the car. I'm sure he feels absolutely awful but I just can't process how something so major could be forgotten

 

[Solaire of Astora]

Prison won't help the man at all. AT ALL. You can't rehabilitate someone from a mistake...there's no arguing that point. And I don't think that anything will ever prevent this type of tragedy from happening either. People make mistakes, shitty ones at that. But criminal negligence is still criminal negligence. In trying to think of a parallel to this I find myself failing horribly, and I feel like the worst thing that can happen to this person has already happened.

What I don't agree with is murder. The more I think of it, the more I see how ridiculous it is. There was no intent. You can't have murder without intent. This is negligence, pure and simple.

You sure you meant to quote me, because I don't disagree and nor did I post anything with a differing opinion.

 

[Delta Assault]

I was gonna ask why he didn't just place the baby seat up front next to him, but then I realized airbags.

 

[Alucrid]

Coffee doesn't make noise in the backseat. You don't check your rear view mirrors to check your coffee. Only possible way this happens is if that baby was asleep the whole drive. Then to go the whole day not remembering.

Clearly you didn't read the article then because it goes over all these points. idiot.

 

[yongeandcollege]

Something similar happened in the Toronto area. Maybe worse because it was the grandma, who helped take care of the kid, who forgot about the him.

Maximus Huyskens, just shy of 2 years old, died of heat exposure on June 26 after he was forgotten in car in Milton for an extended period of time. His grandmother, 52-year-old Leslie MacDonald, pleaded guilty to failing to provide the necessities of life earlier this month.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/11/27/milton_grandma_sentenced_for_grandsons_death_after_being_left_for_a_day_in_a_sweltering_car.html

 

[riotous]

This MIGHT explain the charge:

http://rolfjoneslaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=4

16-5-1 Murder/Felony Murder | Georgia Law
(a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.

(b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

(c) A person also commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

(d) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for life.

If he was committing a felony child endangerment offense, and it caused the death of the child, that constitutes murder in Georgia.

Maybe?

 

[.GqueB.]

Because if you put him in prison, other parents will forget less.

Will they though?

As if the chance their child could die isn't enough, the threat of jail time will further motivate them? As someone said, this seems superfluous as this point.

 

[EloquentM]

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. This is a human being that is 22 months old and at that age, requires a tremendous amount of attention. I just can't fathom forgetting your child is in the car. I'm sure he feels absolutely awful but I just can't process how something so major could be forgotten

youve never forgotten anything important in your life? Wow, your brain must be studied.

 

[Omegasquash]

He doesn't owe anything to society for this. He owes it to his family, himself, and his son. Any punishment society gives him is paltry in comparison to the mental trauma he's going through. Putting him in prison or even a lighter sentence literally does l nothing except make people who disagree that it was an accident feel better about themselves.

I think it's important to note the mental trauma and suffering that his irresponsibility, which is without argument a mistake, caused his family as well. Yes, life is going to suck for him. It's going to be terrible for others too.

Not saying that prison is right, here. I don't know what is, but I can't advocate for this man being charged with murder. It was not.

 

[ReadingRambo]

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. This is a human being that is 22 months old and at that age, requires a tremendous amount of attention. I just can't fathom forgetting your child is in the car. I'm sure he feels absolutely awful but I just can't process how something so major could be forgotten

Please read the article in the first post. It explains it quite clearly how this happens, and to the types of people it can happen to.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

That's the scariest part. Your brain can trick you into thinking that your intentions became reality due to your routines.

Exactly, this has nothing to do with negligence and a ton to do with the way the brain functions. An example that happens to me all of the time is when I am driving. My wife will tell me "We need to go to the pharmacy", I'll acknowledge it, and 30 seconds later I'll turn into my driveway. She'll ask me "what are you doing" and I'll say "Oh yeah." The routine of things puts your brain on autopilot sometimes. If, for example, this father was not the person who typically took his child to daycare, he probably got in his car, started driving with every intention of taking the child to the daycare, then started thinking about something stressful at work and his brain went on autopilot. Once that unusual task is out of the front of your mind, sometimes the monotony of your routine will push it out of your mind altogether. It's unavoidable as a human being.

Hell, there's science saying just passing through a door will make you forget things. Your brain doesn't work the way you think it should.

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

Don't be an ass: It's a completely valid comparison. The mind drops things it thinks it's done with. Your cup of coffee and lunch is on the same level as your child.

Have you never been forgotten/picked up late from school? Same thing as this: Your parent was doing errands and forgot the time.

Same thing here: He thought he dropped the child at the daycare center and went into work with nothing telling him otherwise. He was at work for eight hours thinking his kid was at the daycare only to find out as soon as he got back in the car that "no, your child has been here all day."

Exactly how am I being an ass. It's sure seems like everyone is jumping in defense of this guy. Instead of the defense of the poor child. I'm simply stating the comparison of the two are quite different. Take it how you want. I'm a father myself. I'm not arguing negligence or what is crime should be , just arguing how it compares to forgetting your coffee or lunch.

 

[Amalthea]

Did they call the cops? Long time ago, during the age of 1980, I was frequently left in the car. Not during the hot summer months but I remember chilling in the car while my mom went into the store for 5 minutes. I don't think many people realize how dangerous and it used to be that not many people had access to get people to watch their kids. So, they adjusted. Not saying it was right but there are still people who take their kids to the casino and leave them in the car. I'm lucky to have an au pair but not everyone has access.

Makes me want to bring up the discussion on when it's okay to leave a kid home alone.

At least the cashier closed her line and went to the back. I hope she got to call the cops.

 

[Omegasquash]

You sure you meant to quote me, because I don't disagree and nor did I post anything with a differing opinion.

No no, I was quoting you...I was just coming more in line with your way of thinking, is all. At first, the parent in me was like "get the fucking pitchforks and torches" but when I saw what you and others wrote, it settled my mind and allowed me to use my brain.

It's a thing.

Anyway, we agree.

 

[Kettch]

As someone mentioned earlier, the only appropriate "punishment" here is to have him speak to other parents about ways to prevent this from happening. Anything else is completely pointless.

 

[Crisco]

Of course he deserves to be charged with murder and jailed. Negligence isn't an excuse for causing the death of a child, and while I agree that no punishment could match the pain of his loss, you can't make exceptions to the law or people will exploit them. How many times have we heard of babies being thrown in dumpsters or otherwise disposed of by parents who didn't want them. Leaving them in a hot car to die instead and then saying "oops" would be a convenient out for people like that.

 

[chris121580]

youve never forgotten anything important in your life? Wow, your brain must be studied.

Obviously I have but again, I could never fathom forgetting about my own child. That's more than just something 'important' in my life. I appreciate your unnecessary sarcasm though. Classy response

 

[phillipgessert]

I wonder if those who are completely baffled that a child could be forgotten realize that this father likely felt the exact same way prior to this horrific mistake.

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

Clearly you didn't read the article then because it goes over all these points. idiot.

Yeah because calling me an idiot for defending the child is mature. I'm simply asking questions sorry gaf.

 

[Omegasquash]

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. This is a human being that is 22 months old and at that age, requires a tremendous amount of attention. I just can't fathom forgetting your child is in the car. I'm sure he feels absolutely awful but I just can't process how something so major could be forgotten

They do...I have a daughter that's nearly that age, and a son who's way older (who ironically requires very nearly MORE attention, but that's as far off topic as I'll go). You can easily forget things. It's more difficult to forget your children, and I haven't done it, but it's very, very possible.

As an example, I've left the car seat in my car before, driven to work, got there, and only THEN did I realize it was with me, so I had to drive all the way back home to drop it off. I thought I had left it at home, as I usually take it out of my car when me and my baby girl get out of the car. This time, she took off running in the driveway, I hauled ass to get her and, lo and behold, did NOT remember to take the car seat out.

The brain works in fucked up ways.

 

[.GqueB.]

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. This is a human being that is 22 months old and at that age, requires a tremendous amount of attention. I just can't fathom forgetting your child is in the car. I'm sure he feels absolutely awful but I just can't process how something so major could be forgotten

You're not him? You don't know what state of mind he was in, what was going on in his life etc etc etc. I agree that this was tragic and shouldn't have happened and he made a big mistake but murder just seems like too much. He'll likely suffer enough.

This is why prison doesn't make sense to me in this case. Prison is supposed to be for rehabilitation right. Or maybe to remove someone from society that doesn't belong. What is he being rehabilitated for? His memory and attention to detail? Why would he be removed from society? So he won't strike again and forget another child in the car? I doubt he'd ever let that happen again.

Seems a bit off to me.

 

[starchild excalibur]

I don't know about being charged with murder.

This thread is interesting at least because it shows you the two main perspectives on incarceration: as a means of punishment or as a means of rehabilitation. Those who primarily see it as a latter are rightly confused as to why this man needs to be charged. If anything it will only do more harm than good overall.

 

[ReadingRambo]

SMH at people in this thread that can't be arsed to read a Pulitzer Prize winning article that thoroughly outlines the complexity of this issue while revealing that it could happen to anyone.

 

[jvm]

The very knowledge that this happens strikes fear into me when taking my kids anywhere, especially the youngest. I figure being a good parent means living with the nightmare scenarios you can imagine, and silently double- and triple-checking yourself at every turn.

Losing your child to someone else's mistake is one thing -- losing your child because of your own mistake would be unbearable.

 

[chubigans]

Everyone should read this article before commenting:

Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

Imho, these parents have already been given the worst sentence possible: they will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they were responsible for the death of their child. Any other punishment is basically superfluous.

That was a great article. Really puts everything in perspective.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

SMH at people in this thread that can't be arsed to read a Pulitzer Prize winning article that thoroughly outlines the complexity of this issue while revealing that it could happen to anyone.

Oh that won a Pulitzer? Much deserved. I don't think there has been much in journalism that opened my eyes like that particular piece did.

 

[Pakoe]

How the hell do you forget your own kid in your car?
This, i will never understand.

 

[NimbusD]

Everyone should read this article before commenting:

Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

Imho, these parents have already been given the worst sentence possible: they will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they were responsible for the death of their child. Any other punishment is basically superfluous.

Thank you for posting this. And thank god it's the first post, hopefully people will read it.

It's easy for people to get outraged in these situations because people think, "How can you do that? Forget a child? You must be a monster!" But reality isn't that easy. It's a shitty fucking situation but it doesn't mean that people are murderers.

 

[railGUN]

How the hell do you forget your own kid in your car?
This, i will never understand.

Lucky for you this thread has the answer. See first reply.

 

[chris121580]

SMH at people in this thread that can't be arsed to read a Pulitzer Prize winning article that thoroughly outlines the complexity of this issue while revealing that it could happen to anyone.

I read the article and find it interesting. It's just hard for me to process someone ever forgetting their own child even after reading it. I want to make it clear that I definitely don't think he deserves to be charged with murder and I feel absolutely awful for this person. Such a tragedy

 

[ReadingRambo]

Thank you for posting this. And thank god it's the first post, hopefully people will read it.

It's easy for people to get outraged in these situations because people think, "How can you do that? Forget a child? You must be a monster!" But reality isn't that easy. It's a shitty fucking situation but it doesn't mean that people are murderers.

How the hell do you forget your own kid in your car?
This, i will never understand.

It's always like this with these threads. I can understand why but it's still so frustrating.

 

[EloquentM]

Obviously I have but again, I could never fathom forgetting about my own child. That's more than just something 'important' in my life. I appreciate your unnecessary sarcasm though. Classy response

My point was that memory is often inaccurate and unreliable no matter what it is you're trying to remember. Unless you're an anomaly you likely make mistakes every day in regards to memory recall. Aside from your own consciousness the mechanical workings of your memory for the most part don't discriminate at all based on what you want it remember and what it forgets, unless you constantly groom it to.

 

[aceface]

Just just happened in a town down the road from me. The local DA is a good friend of mine and now has to decide how/if to prosecute the parent.

My wife made a good point: if cars can have alarms go off if you are sitting in the front seat without a seatbelt, surely they can have some sort of system ding if there is excess weight in one of the back seats? Hell that front seat alarm sometimes goes off if my backpack is on there.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Everyone should read this article before commenting:

Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

Imho, these parents have already been given the worst sentence possible: they will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they were responsible for the death of their child. Any other punishment is basically superfluous.

For those who haven't read the article and don't understand how someone can forget a child, here is a list of people who have forgotten a child who died from being locked in a car:

"In the last 10 years, it has happened to a dentist. A postal clerk. A social worker. A police officer. An accountant. A soldier. A paralegal. An electrician. A Protestant clergyman. A rabbinical student. A nurse. A construction worker. An assistant principal. It happened to a mental health counselor, a college professor and a pizza chef. It happened to a pediatrician. It happened to a rocket scientist."

 

[ReadingRambo]

Just just happened in a town down the road from me. The local DA is a good friend of mine and now has to decide how/if to prosecute the parent.

My wife made a good point: if cars can have alarms go off if you are sitting in the front seat without a seatbelt, surely they can have some sort of system ding if there is excess weight in one of the back seats? Hell that front seat alarm sometimes goes off if my backpack is on there.

There are aftermarket products you can buy that do this. The article talks about parent groups that are trying to get car manufacturers to make devices like these standard.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Just just happened in a town down the road from me. The local DA is a good friend of mine and now has to decide how/if to prosecute the parent.

My wife made a good point: if cars can have alarms go off if you are sitting in the front seat without a seatbelt, surely they can have some sort of system ding if there is excess weight in one of the back seats? Hell that front seat alarm sometimes goes off if my backpack is on there.

I wonder if there is an app for this. It would be neat to have an app that just buzzed your phone and said "Do you know where your baby is" five minutes after it senses you've stopped driving.

 

[MrCat]

Of course he deserves to be charged with murder and jailed. Negligence isn't an excuse for causing the death of a child, and while I agree that no punishment could match the pain of his loss, you can't make exceptions to the law or people will exploit them. How many times have we heard of babies being thrown in dumpsters or otherwise disposed of by parents who didn't want them. Leaving them in a hot car to die instead and then saying "oops" would be a convenient out for people like that.

This would be the only reason that I could see justifying the murder charge.

Other than that, as a parent that drives my 2yr old to day care every morning, it is such a gut-wrenching thought to find your child dead in the seat, after everything they went through in those last moments. Many articles point to a cell phone call being the distraction? shit... I'm turning my phone off while I take my daughter to school.

 

[phillipgessert]

My point was that memory is often inaccurate and unreliable no matter what it is you're trying to remember. Unless you're an anomaly you likely make mistakes every day in regards to memory recall. Aside from your own consciousness the mechanical workings of your memory for the most part don't discriminate at all based on what you want it remember and what it forgets, unless you constantly groom it to.

And the beauty part is that we may be forgetting dozens of important things every single day, and not realize it at all. By design and definition.

 

[bedlamite]

Father of a 15-month old kid here, thanks for the link. Horrifying read but like an earlier poster said, absolutely mandatory reading for every parent.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

Feel bad for the guy, he made a mistake. I could understand making a mistake like that. He is responsible for the death of his child, as if that wasn't enough he's now gonna go to jail, lose his job, probably his marriage, and I'm sure he isn't going to come out better than he was before. Just churning out another victim of a broken system.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Poor guy , he is going to need years of therapy and will need to live with this for the rest of his life.

Not sure what putting him into prison achieves here...
Some misplaced 'justice' and sense of closure (for who? the public?) putting this guy away is not going to make what happened just go away.

What are they going to do with him in prison? Teach him not to forget his kid in the backseat?

His life and mind are already in tatters, no need to stomp on it even harder.

 

[RSP]

Just just happened in a town down the road from me. The local DA is a good friend of mine and now has to decide how/if to prosecute the parent.

My wife made a good point: if cars can have alarms go off if you are sitting in the front seat without a seatbelt, surely they can have some sort of system ding if there is excess weight in one of the back seats? Hell that front seat alarm sometimes goes off if my backpack is on there.

My previous car had a motion detection that triggered the alarm when something moved inside the car. Actually had it go off when I locked the car to go pay at a gas station when my son was inside and he was playing with his toys. The car was built in 2001.

Must be horrible for the guy having to live with this. I dont know if I could go on after that.

 

[riotous]

My point was that memory is often inaccurate and unreliable no matter what it is you're trying to remember. Unless you're an anomaly you likely make mistakes every day in regards to memory recall. Aside from your own consciousness the mechanical workings of your memory for the most part don't discriminate at all based on what you want it remember and what it forgets, unless you constantly groom it to.

Not to mention the parents of very young children are often sleep deprived, and have been for months or even years if they have multiple kids.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Obviously I have but again, I could never fathom forgetting about my own child. That's more than just something 'important' in my life. I appreciate your unnecessary sarcasm though. Classy response

So you've never forgotten anything when dealing with your child? Forgetting diapers, forgetting a snack, forgetting to bring a favorite toy, etc? You've done absolute perfect care for your child and never forgot anything relating to them? You've never driven somewhere that was different than your daily routine but went the wrong way because you were doing your daily routine?

 

[water_wendi]

i have no outrage over this. This can happen to anyone. Probably easier than most might think. If the mind is overloaded and a routine is broken.. thats all it would take.

 

[chris121580]

This line in the article is just absolutely heart breaking

"Then there is the Chattanooga, Tenn., business executive who must live with this: His motion-detector car alarm went off, three separate times, out there in the broiling sun. But when he looked out, he couldn’t see anyone tampering with the car. So he remotely deactivated the alarm and went calmly back to work."