Father who left his child in car, charged with murder, no bond

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No sane jury will convict him of murder...the father will suffer his whole life. Prison does nothing in this case. So dumb.

satori said:
Murder is a bit much, but I agree he has to be charged with something. Just because you are very very sorry does not mean you wont get punished by the law if you did something against the law. Some of you who are saying what would a prison sentence do, he is still going to suffer for the rest of his life. Yes, he will feel remorse and suffer for the rest of his life for being the cause of the death of his child due to his own negligence, and he will also need to pay for the laws he broke as well.

Not sure how the two of them are related. I mean he left a child in the car, that said child died directly due to his action and suffer baking in the damn car. "I forgot and I feel bad" does not make it ok in my eyes. He still broke the law, and he is still directly responsible for the lost of an innocent life.
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That is some funky thinking. Prison is for rehabilitation, to mend a person to operate better in society. What will prison do for this man besides ruin his life more? It was an accident, a horrible accident - but there is no need to destroy this man's life further. You can't just take something black and white and apply it here. We have the ability for higher thought and can rationalize what needs to be done. Throwing someone in prison just because "laws were broken" is not the road to a functioning society. We need to be more analytical in our justice system.
 
What about buying a simply proximity alarm?

Put one on your toddler... put one in your pocket.

They sell them for laptops. Belkin, etc.
 
LowKeyedUp said:
Better that 100 innocent be imprisoned than 1 guilty go free, right?
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I wouldn't say he is completely innocent, either. I am saying some jail time is understandable compared to letting everyone who has a child die in a hot car go free because "I'm sure he feels really bad about the whole thing".

Punishing negligence is still in order.

water_wendi said:
Thats why the police investigate.
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And I agree. He is being charged with murder, he has not been convicted. Everyone is really overreacting to what is just is just preliminary legal procedure, the charges could be lessened or dropped entirely depending on the investigation.
 
psylah said:
You don't see a problem with that?

Anyone who wants to kill their child could put up the same excuse and get rid of an unwanted child with zero repercussions.
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It's understood that this will be investigated, as it should be.

If genuine, I would want no penalties cast upon him that would ruin his living life...such as life-ruining convictions & jail time.
 
Raiden said:
This.

You make a choice of being a father, you're responsible for their well being. Also an entire workday went by before he realised that his kid was still in the car. It sounds cruel but that kid will never grow up, raise a family or anything.

He messed up bigtime and paid the price. Its not like it was a fire, carcrash or a freak of nature kinda thing. Its entirely his own fault.
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People are bringing up a good point tho - sure he's going to jail, as would happen in any case of criminal negligence, but are we doing so to help the father punish himself? It does nothing for society in this case - the father will regret for the rest of his life, and I doubt anyone else is going to be relieved that this guy is off the streets.
 
Zoe said:
It's in the article. Nobody wants to be the one liable when the system malfunctions.
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Then have the customer sign a waver that it's a system intended to aid, and if it malfunctions they are not liable.

People should at least have the options or the means
 
GhaleonEB said:
Yesterday I had to call my wife and have her check whether I left the burner on when I left the house. I had to eat in a hurry and then run to work, and had this nagging doubt that I might not have clicked the burner off and left a pan on it. That could burn the house down while we were both out.

Turns out I turned it off. But I wasn't sure, and our house and all our possessions were on the line. All it took was my being in a hurry to risk all that. The same kind of situation leads to kids being left in cars, despite responsible parents being paranoid and checking. It, very rarely, happens even when we are careful. Locking the parents up doesn't solve this. It's part of being human and living in modern life.
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Had something similar happen about two months ago. My wife had to run our oldest to piano lessons and she had been cooking. I was at the small desk in our kitchen on the laptop when she took off. All the sudden my 6 year old yells fire and I turn around to see a plastic container, two oven mits and a spatula all on fire. Scary shit and nothing like that had happened to us before in almost 15 years of being married. Article was interesting to read.
 
I'm pretty sure, based on this man's reaction, that he will be in mental prison the rest of his life.

I don't think society needs to touch this, really.
 
My wife usually takes my kid to daycare in the morning. one morning I was driving to work and completely forgot my son was in the back seat until I was a couple exits past his daycare. That freaked me out and I've never done that again. I could see someone do this by accident. Hell I bet most people don't recall the drive into work in the morning. This is so sad and tragic.
 
riotous said:
What about buying a simply proximity alarm?

Put one on your toddler... put one in your pocket.

They sell them for laptops. Belkin, etc.
Click to expand...

I don't think that'll work because it will rely on you attaching it to your kid every day and heck the kid might complain being attached to it since it looks like an annoying bulky device. The second you forget to put it on your kid, it becomes useless. Also what if you have two or three kids? Now you gotta carry three dongles?

GTI Guy said:
My wife usually takes my kid to daycare in the morning. one morning I was driving to work and completely forgot my son was in the back seat until I was a couple exits past his daycare. That freaked me out and I've never done that again. I could see someone do this by accident. Hell I bet most people don't recall the drive into work in the morning. This is so sad and tragic.
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I've probably done drop off over 1000 times now and never had an incident. It only takes 1 time for things to go really badly and people need to understand this.
 
Sir_Crocodile said:
My post was a response to the charge he was handed - murder seems in no way warranted for the crime. Gross negligence is what I would have thought should have been proffered.

Is your opinion that it should never be a crime in this situation, or only if someone doesn't have extenuating circumstances (overworked to the point of exhaustion, etc)?
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In this situation? No I don't think it's a crime, at least not one we should throw the parents into jail for. It's a horrible accident.

I do support a full investigation, of course and the circumstances would dictate whether charges were pressed. If the situation were say, parent leaves child in car to get drunk at bar, kid roasts while parent passes out drunk, I'd characterize that as neglect.
 
E92 M3 said:
No sane jury will convict him of murder...the father will suffer his whole life. Prison does nothing in this case. So dumb.



That is some funky thinking. Prison is for rehabilitation, to mend a person to operate better in society. What will prison do for this man besides ruin his life more? It was an accident, a horrible accident - but there is no need to destroy this man's life further. You can't just take something black and white and apply it here. We have the ability for higher thought and can rationalize what needs to be done. Throwing someone in prison just because "laws were broken" is not the road to a functioning society. We need to be more analytical in our justice system.
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Prison is also a form of punishment. Or are you really going to argue that fact that going to prison is purely for rehabilitation? If this is how you truly feel about prison then we have nothing else to discuss.

I agree we need do need to take a step back and be more analytically. But to me the fact is he committed a crime. Was it murder? Of course not. But at the very least it is child neglect/endangerment. And I am being rational. I am taking the emotion out of it and trying to be perspective.

Was there a crime? To me? Yes a crime was committed. It does not matter how sorry you are, or how remorse you feel. A crime was committed, therefore there should be some form of punishment. Am I saying I hope he rots? Of course not, but again I do believe he should be serve some kind of punishment that goes beyond his own sense of guilt.
 
NimbusD said:
Thank you for posting this. And thank god it's the first post, hopefully people will read it.

It's easy for people to get outraged in these situations because people think, "How can you do that? Forget a child? You must be a monster!" But reality isn't that easy. It's a shitty fucking situation but it doesn't mean that people are murderers.
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Got through the article and your post pretty much nailed it for me. There's a paragraph that states the following and it was one of the more important take aways to me about humans and such.

Hickling is a clinical psychologist from Albany, N.Y :
"In hyperthermia cases, he believes, the parents are demonized for much the same reasons. “We are vulnerable, but we don’t want to be reminded of that. We want to believe that the world is understandable and controllable and unthreatening, that if we follow the rules, we’ll be okay. So, when this kind of thing happens to other people, we need to put them in a different category from us. We don’t want to resemble them, and the fact that we might is too terrifying to deal with. So, they have to be monsters.”
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luxarific said:
Everyone should read this article before commenting:

Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

Imho, these parents have already been given the worst sentence possible: they will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they were responsible for the death of their child. Any other punishment is basically superfluous.
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I feel sick reading and thinking about it. But GAF will provide a bunch of posters who have never made any mistakes ever to pile on blame.
 
Marty Chinn said:
I don't think that'll work because it will rely on you attaching it to your kid every day and heck the kid might complain being attached to it since it looks like an annoying bulky device. The second you forget to put it on your kid, it becomes useless. Also what if you have two or three kids? Now you gotta carry three dongles?
Click to expand...

They certainly aren't bulky.

Apparently they have products designed for parents already:

http://www.gizmag.com/kiddo-proximity-alarm-system/8834/

It's certainly something extra to remember.. but that would be part of a pattern of putting the kid in the car in the first place.. and just an extra defense against forgetting them. Maybe not entirely reasonable, but if you are worried about it.. seems worth a try.
 
satori said:
Prison is also a form of punishment. Or are you really going to argue that fact that going to prison is purely for rehabilitation? If this is how you truly feel about prison then we have nothing else to discuss.

I agree we need do need to take a step back and be more analytically. But to me the fact is he committed a crime. Was it murder? Of course not. But at the very least it is child neglect/endangerment. And I am being rational. I am taking the emotion out of it and trying to be perspective.

Was there a crime? To me? Yes a crime was committed. It does not matter how sorry you are, or how remorse you feel. A crime was committed, therefore there should be some form of punishment. Am I saying I hope he rots? Of course not, but again I do believe he should be serve some kind of punishment that goes beyond his own sense of guilt.
Click to expand...

Prison is a form of punishment designed to rehabilitate - does it achieve that goal? That's another thread. What is this man getting punished for? It was a horrible accident and he lost his child. That's punishment enough. Just saying it's a crime and he should be punished is flawed thinking. What is a crime? A crime is something determined by a lot of middle-aged men and women on Capitol Hill. Are you telling me these people have a perfect barometer for humanity? Sending this man to jail will just increase the burden on the tax payers, ruin his life more, and ultimately achieve nothing.

There is no emotion involved with this - it's just what is best for society. I bet you that you commit "crimes" everyday. Do know every single law in this country? By your thought process, everyone is a criminal and needs to be punished. Laws are created to be challenged and refined for the betterment of society.

Trust me I'm all for throwing scumbags into prison, but this guy doesn't deserve it. And it's bewildering to me that you think he should be punished.
 
I can't even fathom how a person could leave their child in a car like that. How do you forget them in the first place!? Don't people check around their car to make sure the windows are up or down or the doors are locked? It just doesn't make sense to me.

That said, isn't there a lesser charge he could get? I dunno, murder seems a little excessive. He definitely deserves a punishment for this but maybe being charged with something like negligent homicide would be more fitting wouldn't it? Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong one...
 
luxarific said:
Everyone should read this article before commenting:

Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

Imho, these parents have already been given the worst sentence possible: they will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they were responsible for the death of their child. Any other punishment is basically superfluous.
Click to expand...
That article is heartbreakingly hard to read. The father who tried to wrestle a gun away from police to end his own life... fucking hell. The doctor who explains the physiology of it does a pretty outstanding job of making it clear that this can, in fact, happen to anyone. Doesnt matter who you are, how organized you are, how much of a loving parent you are... all it takes is one thing to distract you, even hours beforehand, and this can happen. Heartbreaking.
 
For those saying "what is prison going to do?"....

You do realize that punishment isn't just for the criminal, but serves as a deterrent for future ones, right?
 
So, can someone explain why the tired parent whose mistake kills their kid shouldn't go to jail, but the tired truck driver who falls asleep for a second and kills another driver should? Because that's what happens now. If you make the mistake of falling asleep and killing someone, you're going to be charged with some form of manslaughter.

Or, what if it had been a neighbor's kidin the back seat? Still no prison? It's the exact same mistake, but I suspect if it were someone else's kid, this might be a very different thread?

Or, what if the parent forgets to put their gun away and a kid shoots themselves? Still a mistake, still already punished by losing a child.

I'm torn on whether prison makes sense here, but largely unconvinced by the argument that is was a mistake or that he's been punished enough. Those certainly aren't the normal criteria we use to determine whether someone should be charged.

Frankly, it seems to me that we're more forgiving in this case because we can imagine ourselves in the place of the father. That seems like an unusual way decide justice -- what's easy for us to empathize with.
 
besada said:
So, can someone explain why the tired parent whose mistake kills their kid shouldn't go to jail, but the tired truck driver who falls asleep for a second and kills another driver should? Because that's what happens now. If you make the mistake of falling asleep and killing someone, you're going to be charged with some form of manslaughter.

Or, what if it had been a neighbor's kidin the back seat? Still no prison? It's the exact same mistake, but I suspect if it were someone else's kid, this might be a very different thread?

Or, what if the parent forgets to put their gun away and a kid shoots themselves? Still a mistake, still already punished by losing a child.

I'm torn on whether prison makes sense here, but largely unconvinced by the argument that is was a mistake or that he's been punished enough. Those certainly aren't the normal criteria we use to determine whether someone should be charged.

Frankly, it seems to me that we're more forgiving in this case because we can imagine ourselves in the place of the father. That seems like an unusual way decide justice -- what's easy for us to empathize with.
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I believe we have to analyze each scenario in isolation, in these types of cases a broad brush will not lead to a solution.
 
besada said:
So, can someone explain why the tired parent whose mistake kills their kid shouldn't go to jail, but the tired truck driver who falls asleep for a second and kills another driver should? Because that's what happens now. If you make the mistake of falling asleep and killing someone, you're going to be charged with some form of manslaughter.

Or, what if it had been a neighbor's kidin the back seat? Still no prison? It's the exact same mistake, but I suspect if it were someone else's kid, this might be a very different thread?

Or, what if the parent forgets to put their gun away and a kid shoots themselves? Still a mistake, still already punished by losing a child.

I'm torn on whether prison makes sense here, but largely unconvinced by the argument that is was a mistake or that he's been punished enough. Those certainly aren't the normal criteria we use to determine whether someone should be charged.

Frankly, it seems to me that we're more forgiving in this case because we can imagine ourselves in the place of the father. That seems like an unusual way decide justice -- what's easy for us to empathize with.
Click to expand...

It's not the same situation. Mental fatigue/distractions might lead to this, but it's not the same as a truck driver falling asleep at the wheel. A person should know when they are too tired to drive heavy machinery. Did you read the article posted? It explains the phenomenon in great detail.
 
Murder? So prosecution has PROOF that he intended to kill the child by leaving it behind in the car? Any halfway competent defender will rip prosecution a new one for this.

IANAL, but this screams manslaughter to me at worst and child negligence at best...
 
LowKeyedUp said:
It's not the same situation. Mental fatigue/distractions might lead to this, but it's not the same as a truck driver falling asleep at the wheel. A person should know when they are too tired to drive heavy machinery. Did you read the article posted? It explains the phenomenon in great detail.
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So a person isn't supposed to know when they are too tired to not kill their child?
 
KHlover said:
Murder? So prosecution has PROOF that he intended to kill the child by leaving it behind in the car? Any halfway competent defender will rip prosecution a new one for this.

IANAL, but this screams manslaughter to me at worst and child negligence at best...
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It's the law in Georgia; he committed felony child neglect.. and it caused a death, which falls under murder.
 
no desire to step into the arguments in this thread but this is sincerely my number #1 fear as a parent. luckily my children are noise bombs and are impossible to forget in a car. But my wife and I have passed out before and woken up with that temporary 'where is the baby' cold sweat, only to realize we put em in the crib and just forgot.
 
E92 M3 said:
Prison is a form of punishment designed to rehabilitate - does it achieve that goal? That's another thread. What is this man getting punished for? It was a horrible accident and he lost his child. That's punishment enough. Just saying it's a crime and he should be punished is flawed thinking. What is a crime? A crime is something determined by a lot of middle-aged men and women on Capitol Hill. Are you telling me these people have a perfect barometer for humanity? Sending this man to jail will just increase the burden on the tax payers, ruin his life more, and ultimately achieve nothing.

There is no emotion involved with this - it's just what is best for society. I bet you that you commit "crimes" everyday. Do know every single law in this country? By your thought process, everyone is a criminal and needs to be punished. Laws are created to be challenged and refined for the betterment of society.

Trust me I'm all for throwing scumbags into prison, but this guy doesn't deserve it. And it's bewildering to me that you think he should be punished.
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Great question and great point. The definition of what is a crime is the key in a lot of cases, because that will lead to certain views. In this case, what is a crime? Being the cause of the death of your child by leaving them in the car should be a crime. That is my stance on that subject. To me it is neglect. You see it as an accident, and I see it as neglect.

I still do not understand the concept that he is being punish enough because he has to live with the guilt of being the cause of death of his child. I can see everyone is coming from, if this was an accident then yes that would be enough. But my view stands that it was neglect on his part. You can argue he was absent-minded for that moment all you want, but that does not absolve you from your actions.
 
Vyroxis said:
He prosecutor is insane if they think they will get a jury to convict him for murder. Just playing that tape alone would sway the jury.
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As others have been saying, they don't have to convict him of murder, it's an automatic charge that comes with the other felony. If he's convicted of the child cruelty he'll automatically get felony murder since the child died as a direct result of the first crime.

I personally don't like the felony murder rule, but thats how it works. In some states you can even get the death penalty from it.
 
DR2K said:
How do we know that it wasn't intentional? If the punishment isn't severe then child killers just found a new loophole.

What kind of shitty person forgets to take their kid out the car, much less go to a day care?
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LOL this news article taught those homicidal parents a new way to kill their children!

/s

While it may seem unbelievable to some, including myself, it's not outright impossible to forget about something so important. There could be other stressors occupying mental space. It's possible one might even falsely convince themselves that they already left their child at home or at daycare. There have been a number of times when I thought I did something but at the end of the day I realized I didn't. I won't even bother to speculate what the guy might have thought throughout the day, because we don't know.

With that said, he does need some type of punishment, but not a murder charge or life sentence. He should also be required to undergo mental rehabilitation. Something like this can be mentally taxing. It changes your life completely. And it might even make one suicidal.
 
riotous said:
They certainly aren't bulky.

Apparently they have products designed for parents already:

http://www.gizmag.com/kiddo-proximity-alarm-system/8834/

It's certainly something extra to remember.. but that would be part of a pattern of putting the kid in the car in the first place.. and just an extra defense against forgetting them. Maybe not entirely reasonable, but if you are worried about it.. seems worth a try.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but to a kid, that's bulky. It's an extra variable that could go wrong.
 
besada said:
So, can someone explain why the tired parent whose mistake kills their kid shouldn't go to jail, but the tired truck driver who falls asleep for a second and kills another driver should? Because that's what happens now. If you make the mistake of falling asleep and killing someone, you're going to be charged with some form of manslaughter.

Or, what if it had been a neighbor's kidin the back seat? Still no prison? It's the exact same mistake, but I suspect if it were someone else's kid, this might be a very different thread?

Or, what if the parent forgets to put their gun away and a kid shoots themselves? Still a mistake, still already punished by losing a child.

I'm torn on whether prison makes sense here, but largely unconvinced by the argument that is was a mistake or that he's been punished enough. Those certainly aren't the normal criteria we use to determine whether someone should be charged.

Frankly, it seems to me that we're more forgiving in this case because we can imagine ourselves in the place of the father. That seems like an unusual way decide justice -- what's easy for us to empathize with.
Click to expand...

Well yeah, that was his child. Its very different from having someone else's child and being negligent or evening killing someone falling asleep at the wheel.
 
Marty Chinn said:
Sorry, but to a kid, that's bulky. It's an extra variable that could go wrong.
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It's the size of your average car alarm key fob.

And absolutely nothing "can go wrong" with them... so not even sure what that means. It's an extra variable that if forgotten changes nothing, if set up wrong changes nothing, and if it works as intended could save a life.
 
riotous said:
It's the size of your average car alarm key fob.

And absolutely nothing "can go wrong" with them... so not even sure what that means. It's an extra variable that if forgotten changes nothing, if set up wrong changes nothing, and if it works as intended could save a life.
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Where do you attach it? To their arm? To their leg? Do you have kids? That thing is bulky for the size of a 2 year old. Walk me through the process. When do you put it on the kid? When do you take it off the kid? It's another variable that makes you even more comfortable if you rely on it and all it takes is one time for you to slip up and you've got the same result. Not to mention issues of batteries dying, it not working, your kid breaking it without you realizing it...
 
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