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[Infinite]

I REALLY hope that whiffed DP = counter stays. Really liked that change.

What damage did V-Reversals do before?

It did no damage.

 

[Horseress]

Yeah, it isn't perfect, but I actually like playing this game. That's a big step up in my book.

Just out of curiosity: what changed from IV to V that made you like the game?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Just out of curiosity: what changed from IV to V that made you like the game?

removing the depth/complexity /count

 

[El Sloth]

What's up with people saying that sf5 won't have a long life based a beta version of a game and also drawing that conclusion because combos are straight forward in said beta version?

UltraDavid pointed out a while ago that people were apparently saying almost the same exact things about SFIV pre-release. So maybe it's just part of the new SF Game Release Cycle?

Also spent my morning making a bunch of updates. It's easy to put things on a calendar, but the real work comes in cross checking everything to make sure it's correct, which it usually isn't until the last minute. Should be a fun weekend.

tinyurl.com/fgccalendar

Thanks for always keeping the calendar up to date, Malice, it's a p. awesome resource.

 

[Thulius]

UltraDavid pointed out a while ago that people were apparently saying almost the same exact things about SFIV pre-release. So maybe it's just part of the new SF Game Release Cycle?

IIRC pre-release SFIV was actually super janky and did dumb stuff like use collision detection instead of 2D hitboxes. It's a similar situation but the things people are complaining about in SFV aren't even comparable to that garbage.

 

[Karsticles]

Just out of curiosity: what changed from IV to V that made you like the game?

I think it's mostly the lack of focus attacks combined with no invincible backdashes. You get in someone's face, and you're just in there. You have to work that confrontation out - no running away. There also aren't any situations where one character wants to 100% turtle and run the clock with a life lead while the other struggles to get in. There is a strong advantage to being offensive over defensive in this game.

 

[Horseress]

I think it's mostly the lack of focus attacks combined with no invincible backdashes. You get in someone's face, and you're just in there. You have to work that confrontation out - no running away. There also aren't any situations where one character wants to 100% turtle and run the clock with a life lead while the other struggles to get in. There is a strong advantage to being offensive over defensive in this game.

Altho I like this "need" to be offensive style SFV has, I think the game misses a "dhalsim" character. No idea how it would be implemented, since this is an extremelly offensive game, but there's shotos, grapples, now we need a zoner

 

[Karsticles]

Altho I like this "need" to be offensive style SFV has, I think the game misses a "dhalsim" character. No idea how it would be implemented, since this is an extremelly offensive game, but there's shotos, grapples, now we need a zoner

Dhalsim worked in SF2, so I don't see why he can't work here.

I agree we need more zoners, but if we get Juri + Dhalsim, then that will be good.

 

[Zissou]

Altho I like this "need" to be offensive style SFV has, I think the game misses a "dhalsim" character. No idea how it would be implemented, since this is an extremelly offensive game, but there's shotos, grapples, now we need a zoner

Why couldn't he work? Focus being gone helps sim, and dive kicks being noticeably absent (only Cammy right now, and it doesn't seem that great) makes it a more sim-friendly environment than SF4.

 

[Beckx]

Tested out picture quality and input lag on my monitor with Skullgirls yesterday. I haven't played it on a larger screen in such a long time and was struck again by just how beautiful the game is, and also how it plays like such a dream.

 

[Horseress]

Good points, but why focus being gone helps Sim? It's another defensive tool he had. I'm not a Sim player so I might be wrong

Maybe if they make his teleport good this time he would be ok

and btw Necalli also has a divekick

 

[Zissou]

Good points, but why focus being gone helps Sim? It's another defensive tool he had. I'm not a Sim player so I might be wrong

Maybe if they make his teleport good this time he would be ok

and btw Necalli also has a divekick

His focus was ass but lots of characters could use focus to blow up his long range pokes.

 

[Horseress]

His focus was ass but lots of characters could use focus to blow up his long range pokes.

Oh yeah, right....his focus is terrible

Anyway, I'm sure they'll add some kind of sim along the way, really curious to see how he would fit

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Oh yeah, right....his focus is terrible

Anyway, I'm sure they'll add some kind of sim along the way, really curious to see how he would fit

Maybe he'll be like ST Dhalsim and let you just RTSD

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Good points, but why focus being gone helps Sim? It's another defensive tool he had. I'm not a Sim player so I might be wrong

Maybe if they make his teleport good this time he would be ok

and btw Necalli also has a divekick

Focus Attack might as well not exist for Dhalsim with how rarely he gets to utilize it. Slow, barely beneficial when he's pushed into the corner, his forwards / backwards dash animations have a relatively long animation and only a few combo opportunities compared to other characters.

Then there's an abundance of fighters in Ultra who can eat his long-range pokes with their own Focus and quickly cover ground / reach him if you're not careful. His standing medium kick used to count for two hits at a certain range in an early build to help relieve some of the Focus pressure, but that didn't make the cut.

Maybe he'll be like ST Dhalsim and let you just RTSD

Inescapable long-range Yoga Noogies would make me feel nostalgic.

 

[Horseress]

I bet Sim would be nothing alike his SFIV iteration

 

[sixteen-bit]

I bet Sim would be nothing alike his SFIV iteration

give him a run ala cvs2

 

[kitzkozan]

I think it's mostly the lack of focus attacks combined with no invincible backdashes. You get in someone's face, and you're just in there. You have to work that confrontation out - no running away. There also aren't any situations where one character wants to 100% turtle and run the clock with a life lead while the other struggles to get in. There is a strong advantage to being offensive over defensive in this game.

I don't know if this game will be that offensive, like you and many other expect it to be. I was watching Max's stream last week and he predicted that it would end up being quite defensive at the highest level of play. It make sense, when you look at the potential damage and stun output which make it a scary game which usually end up being defensive. For lower level of play, it will be an offensive game since people have a lot of flaws so they will easily open up one another. The same won't apply to the pros who will be able to block / anticipate most setup given the pace of the game. Super turbo also had a very high damage output and restricted combo possibilities, but it was also a much faster paced game when you compare the walking speed. Max and one of his friend predict that a lot of matches will run the clock down until there's 30 seconds or less time left (although I don't expect to see a lot of timeout like we saw in SF X T).

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I bet Sim would be nothing alike his SFIV iteration

Give us MvC+ST Sim. I want flight and Divekicks.

 

[Zissou]

I don't know if this game will be that offensive, like you and many other expect it to be. I was watching Max's stream last week and he predicted that it would end up being quite defensive at the highest level of play. It make sense, when you look at the potential damage and stun output which make it a scary game which usually end up being defensive. For lower level of play, it will be an offensive game since people have a lot of flaws so they will easily open up one another. The same won't apply to the pros who will be able to block / anticipate most setup given the pace of the game. Super turbo also had a very high damage output and restricted combo possibilities, but it was also a much faster paced game when you compare the walking speed. Max and one of his friend predict that a lot of matches will run the clock down until there's 30 seconds or less time left (although I don't expect to see a lot of timeout like we saw in SF X T).

I don't see how this game could be as remotely defensive as sf4. Every defensive option is worse. No invincible backdash, if you block too much you'll take large amounts of grey health damage, SRKs are incredibly unsafe, no more crouch tech, etc.

 

[CountBlack]

I bet Sim would be nothing alike his SFIV iteration

Just play Omega mode Dhalsim #Kappa

 

[pixelish]

Just play Omega mode Dhalsim #Kappa

thanks for reminding me about omega sim. one of his specials was like a marvel combo lol

 

[Karsticles]

I don't know if this game will be that offensive, like you and many other expect it to be. I was watching Max's stream last week and he predicted that it would end up being quite defensive at the highest level of play. It make sense, when you look at the potential damage and stun output which make it a scary game which usually end up being defensive. For lower level of play, it will be an offensive game since people have a lot of flaws so they will easily open up one another. The same won't apply to the pros who will be able to block / anticipate most setup given the pace of the game. Super turbo also had a very high damage output and restricted combo possibilities, but it was also a much faster paced game when you compare the walking speed. Max and one of his friend predict that a lot of matches will run the clock down until there's 30 seconds or less time left (although I don't expect to see a lot of timeout like we saw in SF X T).

Max doesn't understand what makes a game defensive, then. A game being high-risk doesn't make a game defensive. Marvel is extremely high-risk, and it's probably the most aggressive game in existence next to Guilty Gear. What makes a game aggressive is how rewarding offense is. As long as it's better to be aggressive than it is to play defensively, a game's meta will become aggressive in the long run. Smash has problems with being too defensive because defense is so strong compared to many characters' offensive abilities.

 

[QisTopTier]

SF5 matches have pacing similar to BB which is why I probably like it a lot LOL

The moments of both players waiting for the other to fuck up then the other player going ham.

 

[Horseress]

Slow walk speed doesn't make a game slow paced. The constant fear of being stunned plus all the unsafe moves leading to massive damage makes the game feel fast imo

The moments of both players waiting for the other to fuck up then the other player going ham.

And it's so easy to fuck up in this game, it's awesome

 

[Horseress]

So...Capcom pretty much confirmed Sim and Gief

EDIT: it doesn't confim that much tho

 

[notworksafe]

Vindicated!

 

[sf2fanatic]

I guess focus attack

Yeah I meant that. Thanks for the lookout.

 

[CountBlack]

So...Capcom pretty much confirmed Sim and Gief

How exactly are they confirmed tho

 

[Shackzam]

I don't trust their definition of classic

 

[Horseress]

How exactly are they confirmed tho

Eight characters "you would expect in a SF game", there are already six classic characters....well, there's Balrog, so it'll be two out of those three

I think

 

[CountBlack]

Eight characters "you would expect in a SF game", there are already six world warriors....well, there's Balrog, so it'll be two out of those three

I think

D E E J A Y


#AnybodyButSagat

 

[QisTopTier]

We are getting Blanka and Dhalsim probably. Or honda and Dhalsim

Or sagat and Honda

Or Sagat and Blanka

 

[4r5]

I think the line of reasoning for limiting the range on throws is to prevent tick throws from happening from such a long distance. It was certainly infuriating to get caught by them in SF4 imo and this limits the viability of that tactic, making it a more footsie based game. If the range was increased and kara grabs were in, people would mindlessly relay on that to get the upper edge (plus the grabs are very quick) instead of focusing on the footsie/neutral game.

Throws are a part of footsies. It's one of the most powerful motivating forces behind footsies!

In footsies, you have Attack Moves, Placed Moves, and Counter-Attack Moves.

Attack Moves are attacks intended to make contact with your opponent, whether hit or block. The motivation being, you want to move in to your opponent's space.

Placed Moves are attacks you placed ahead of/inside of your opponent's space, without the intent to make contact. Placed Moves only make contact when your opponent attacks or moves in to a Placed Move.

Counter-Attack Moves are attacks used to punish a whiffed move.

So in other words,
-Counter-Attack Moves beat Placed Moves. A Placed Move that does not find its mark (Your opponent's attack/movement) is a whiff, ripe for Counter-Attack.

-Placed Moves beat Attack Moves. Placed Moves are not used to attack your opponent, but are used to attack your opponent's attack or aggressive movement.

-Attack Moves beat Counter-Attack Moves. Counter-Attack Moves wait for a Placed Move to occur and whiff. Attack Moves beat Counter-Attack Moves by taking advantage of their waiting to invade their space and attack in a way that will not whiff.


Now that we understand footsies, let's get back to where throws fit in all this. Why am I trying to attack in to your space? Why am I trying to keep you out of my space? Why are we footsie'ing at all?! 'Cause I want that juicy throw! I wanna toss you in to the corner, I wanna lay some stun on you, I wanna run a mixup on you. If I win a big footsies sequence, let me have that pay off! It worked for SF2 and the generation of SF2-clones and cousins.


SFV? Shrug. It seems like they're trying to make a counter to blocking that still lets people block. They removed tech-throw OS, which dramatically improves the footsies game. But walk speed is still slow, and throw range is still laughable. They're really experimenting with motivators in this game. It's kind of new territory. Maybe grey damage on block and massive meter gain is enough? We'll find out in a few years.

 

[Coda]

It's really interesting to think about how SF V is gonna evolve considering it's so early right now. I'm excited to really learn the game and get gud really fast.

 

[Beckx]

I assume they think of classic as anyone from ST? Fei Long and Blanka inc.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Blanka too obvious they said

don't believe ono's lies they said

also, RIP Silconera's "leaks" (AKA: tales from my ass)

 

[QisTopTier]

All I know is 98% of the people I played in SF5 sucked. Which lead to me getting blown up first round a few times when I did play someone that knew wtf they were doing because I got lazy

 

[petghost]

Dhalsim worked in SF2, so I don't see why he can't work here.

I agree we need more zoners, but if we get Juri + Dhalsim, then that will be good.

Karst why don't you want faster walkspeeds? How do you see that negatively affecting the game?

 

[QisTopTier]

Karst why don't you want faster walkspeeds? How do you see that negatively affecting the game?

It negates the importance of dashes and the risk of them. If walk speed is really high the need to forward dash drops. High walk speed in a sf game should be a bonus perk of a few characters not the standard

 

[Skilletor]

All I know is 98% of the people I played in SF5 sucked. Which lead to me getting blown up first round a few times when I did play someone that knew wtf they were doing because I got lazy

Yup.

Also confusing to me that people conflate more combos to mean more depth.

Beta of SF5 was amazing. Few problems with it, but nothing major at all.

 

[CountBlack]

All I know is 98% of the people I played in SF5 sucked. Which lead to me getting blown up first round a few times when I did play someone that knew wtf they were doing because I got lazy

Who did you use in the beta?

 

[QisTopTier]

Who did you use in the beta?

Cammy

 

[Horseress]

It negates the importance of dashes and the risk of them. If walk speed is really high the need to forward dash drops. High walk speed in a sf game should be a bonus perk of a few characters not the standard

Wise words

 

[CountBlack]

Cammy

Ah, hopefully in the next Beta we can send invites.

trynna hand out this work

Spoiler

probably gonna bodied without healing tbh tbh

I had a double perfect going and I messed it up.

I should've just rage quited smh, that counted as an L

 

[Numb]

Cammy

Saw the stream where you choked the last round after making that clutch comeback.

 

[kirblar]

I played pretty much mono-Birdie - he's got tons of overlap from Kuma's SFxT design.

 

[QisTopTier]

Saw the stream where you choked the last round after making that clutch comeback.

LOL I was so pissed, playing super late at night is probably not for the best xD oh well

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Cammy

Are we playing the same character? Whoa. I like the TC to CC at the end. I guess I should use jumping HP more.

 

[Karsticles]

Karst why don't you want faster walkspeeds? How do you see that negatively affecting the game?

I specifically just don't want a faster walkspeed for Bison. The simple reason is that, right now, you can walk back while charging Knee Press, and you can micromanage that space while moving. If you make him walk back faster, you're going to lose some maneuvering flexibility because you'll need to down-back so you don't move out of Knee Press range. Right now, Bison is pretty great at counterattacking, and I think a faster walkspeed would make it harder for him. I could be wrong on that, but it's how I see it. I ADORE Bison in the Gamescom build. They fixed my #1 and #2 issues with him, which were:
1) If you down-back, you can't jump anti-air.
2) No pressure strings if you haven't had time to store Psycho Inferno.

One small change fixed both issues!

Back to walkspeed, though: I think what Q says below makes sense.

It negates the importance of dashes and the risk of them. If walk speed is really high the need to forward dash drops. High walk speed in a sf game should be a bonus perk of a few characters not the standard

All I know is 98% of the people I played in SF5 sucked. Which lead to me getting blown up first round a few times when I did play someone that knew wtf they were doing because I got lazy

That moment when you fight your first good Chun-li...