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Fighting Game Community || Stream Monster Headquarters
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CountBlack
Member
how many hours have you put into playing Deejay?
Like I said, he's squeezing blood out of a stone playing Deejay. Kitasenju is playing Deejay at his highest potential but at the end of the day, Deejay still has tons of 6/4's and 3-4 7/3 matchups against him.
-Shit Damage and stun output
-Every other charge character except for him has great normals
-Machine gun upper/ex not working always working as intended (characters fall out and you get punished for using it) they buffed the start up to 6f in Ultra
.. then halved the invincibility and made it a lot worse on block (-11 when mashed) -st.HP forces stand on hit
-st.HP doesn't hit crouching
-buffed the hitstun on knee shot
-nerfed the damage on knee shot
-made the recovery on U2 better so you aren't possibly negative after the animation
-nerfed the damage on U2
-In most situations, can't Ultra 1 off of level 3 focus attack. I don't know another character in this game that has that issue.
-Deejay struggle vortex nerfed because of delayed wakeup
- FADC Punish combos still do struggle damage
- Top 5 worst throw ranges/throw damage in the game. This I don't understand, why can't characters get one or the other? Why does he get both? I could understand his forward throw doing poor damage because you can possibly get a setup off of it, but at least give him some damage on the back throw.
-Startup on Sobat kicks are all ass.
His positives
+ Top 5 anti airs in the game
+ Super -> Ultra does tons of damage
+ Decent zoning game
+
Wakeup U2 has a 100% hit rate against Marz
+ LK Sobat. They buffed it to -3 in the first version of ultra and took away the best property of the attack (lower body invincibility). Current version is -4 and lower body invincibility. It's his one saving grace in footsies against shotos. That nerf in the first version of Ultra (console) is why I dropped Deejay. All the confidence I had playing footsies against Shoto's were gone because of that nerf. (they also nerfed Lk Sobat going into AE by taking away the airborne frames.)
What I'd fix on Deejay.. I could write an essay.
Just saying I played enough SF4 and have seen enough varied opinions to know there's more to it than him just being bad. He went through such a rough time in AE and doesn't have good representation so I think people make it way worse than it seems, and the conceptions that are constantly echoed make it worse.
Like right now everybody makes it out like he's ass when he's probably playable at the least. The opinion on him I've seen has varied and bounced around quite a lot in Ultra. I'd wager that at least points to something more than cryingdeejay.gif
Edit: I'll just throw this in here cause it's kind of a point to make. There is no current tier list that is actually agreed upon in the game as far as I can tell. It's especially funny considering Elena is a well performing and widely picked character who was in C-D tier in every list until Kaz very recently. The way USF4 meta is at this point, you can argue all sorts of positions for all sorts of characters, but because of how MUs shake out and how players load up multiple characters, there's a lot of shit affecting character viability.
CountBlack
Member
ok so how many hours did you put into playing Deejay?
Professor Beef
Banned
"enough"
SquirrelSoup
Member
『Inaba Resident』;185419568 said:
It really is! Who are you playing?
( It does need some quality of life improvements though, which i hope will be made for the sequel. Showing who you fight in ranked while still allowing folks to back out encourages leaderboard hyena's who only fight noobs and dodge you all day. And ragequits don't count as a loss, which encourages a certain kind of player as well. )
What the fuck is up with this level of play.
Thomasorus
Member
It looks like it's recorded matches. If you want some high level play you can check the Wolves Tag Carnival that happened a year ago in Acho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBc0OdmB1Y8
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Just want to say that USFIV and this thread have reignited my love for fighting games. I really wish I joined the wagon earlier, but at least I'll be there for SFV.
Amazing that I was thinking of quitting.
I need a place to play locally. That'll be a good start.
I'm just now understanding how these fighters work and I've put in 80+ hours.
Before, I thought it was, character do whatever. But now I'm realizing there's so much thinking to them. I think a lot of it stems from when SF2 was still the queen of the block and people told me that it was cheating to use Ryu and shoot out nothing but fb's.But now I realize that's the entire point of a fb character, especially my main Poison: throw out FB's, and keep them out of your space. If they get in your space deal with it the best you can. Before, I never had any sort of game plan to my matches. I would just wing it. But watching pro fighters is really helping me understand how these games are supposed to be played and it's fucking beautiful.
Now that I've got my FC4, I'm going to be practicing my combos in training mode for hours until I get this thing right. Youtube is a valuable resource. I've ignored combos because I've been told a lot of newbies think that combos are crucial to winning but simple pokes and links are actually more useful to improvement when starting out.
I also need help on my spacing, meter management, and poking. Any good resources/suggestions for that as a Poison player?
Amazing that I was thinking of quitting.
I need a place to play locally. That'll be a good start.
I'm just now understanding how these fighters work and I've put in 80+ hours.
Before, I thought it was, character do whatever. But now I'm realizing there's so much thinking to them. I think a lot of it stems from when SF2 was still the queen of the block and people told me that it was cheating to use Ryu and shoot out nothing but fb's.But now I realize that's the entire point of a fb character, especially my main Poison: throw out FB's, and keep them out of your space. If they get in your space deal with it the best you can. Before, I never had any sort of game plan to my matches. I would just wing it. But watching pro fighters is really helping me understand how these games are supposed to be played and it's fucking beautiful.
Now that I've got my FC4, I'm going to be practicing my combos in training mode for hours until I get this thing right. Youtube is a valuable resource. I've ignored combos because I've been told a lot of newbies think that combos are crucial to winning but simple pokes and links are actually more useful to improvement when starting out.
I also need help on my spacing, meter management, and poking. Any good resources/suggestions for that as a Poison player?
Holy Order Sol
Member
Not character specific (then again that's the whole point of it), but do check this out if you haven't yet, it's bound to help with your spacing/use of pokes.
how many hours have you put into playing Deejay?
Like I said, he's squeezing blood out of a stone playing Deejay. Kitasenju is playing Deejay at his highest potential but at the end of the day, Deejay still has tons of 6/4's and 3-4 7/3 matchups against him.
-Shit Damage and stun output
-Every other charge character except for him has great normals
-Machine gun upper/ex not working always working as intended (characters fall out and you get punished for using it) they buffed the start up to 6f in Ultra
-st.HP forces stand on hit
-st.HP doesn't hit crouching
-buffed the hitstun on knee shot
-nerfed the damage on knee shot
-made the recovery on U2 better so you aren't possibly negative after the animation
-nerfed the damage on U2
-In most situations, can't Ultra 1 off of level 3 focus attack. I don't know another character in this game that has that issue.
-Deejay struggle vortex nerfed because of delayed wakeup
- FADC Punish combos still do struggle damage
- Top 5 worst throw ranges/throw damage in the game. This I don't understand, why can't characters get one or the other? Why does he get both? I could understand his forward throw doing poor damage because you can possibly get a setup off of it, but at least give him some damage on the back throw.
-Startup on Sobat kicks are all ass.
His positives
+ Top 5 anti airs in the game
+ Super -> Ultra does tons of damage
+ Decent zoning game
++ Isn't 100% free on wakeup anymoreWakeup U2 has a 100% hit rate against Marz
+ LK Sobat. They buffed it to -3 in the first version of ultra and took away the best property of the attack (lower body invincibility). Current version is -4 and lower body invincibility. It's his one saving grace in footsies against shotos. That nerf in the first version of Ultra (console) is why I dropped Deejay. All the confidence I had playing footsies against Shoto's were gone because of that nerf. (they also nerfed Lk Sobat going into AE by taking away the airborne frames.)
What I'd fix on Deejay.. I could write an essay.
He also has amazing walkspeed(how do you not mention this as a positive) and an aerial trajectory changing move in kneeshot. Slide is also really troublesome to deal with...i dunno alot of your negatives are things that other characters deal with as well and he has more than enough positives to balance those out. You're also listing stuff like shit damage and FADC combos doing struggle damage which is the same thing to pad out the list. His damage is not that bad either he has typical charge character damage. They also gave you red focus in ultra for access to higher damage, if deejay players dont want to actually use it then thats on them.
I dont see why ex machinegun being more negative on block matters, its an invincible reversal, if its blocked expect to be punished for it.
I dunno man a lot of these things sound like just basic pros and cons that most characters have.
For example sure Deejay might have bad throw range and damage, but he has really good walkspeed so you're actually in positions where you can threaten with throw more. Compare to Sagat who has shit walkspeed so i have to be directly in someones face to throw even if my throw is doing 140 damage... Deejay has more opportunities to throw with only 20 less damage.
Internet play is also kinda ok, if you have someone or a pool of consistent players to play against who don't lag. If you are searching on gaf it helps to say which continent you are from, since for example US vs. EU will have guaranteed lag.
It's also important to cultivate your own thinking and not to rely too much on the internet.
For example the question when to use FA.
Some facts about FA:
- It can absorb 1 hit loses grey health and gain Ultra meter accordingly.
- It has an attack which can crumple at level 2/3 or counterhit.
- It can be dashed out of, as well as on hit or block.
- It is usually disadvantage on block after level 1 blocked FADC.
- It is usually advantage on block after level 2 blocked FADC.
- Level 3 is unblockable, but needs very long charge.
- There are armor breaking moves.
Which means:
- You can use FA to absorb projectiles to fill your meter.
- You can absorb slow non-cancellable attacks and hit them with a crumple, i.e. sweeps or HK/HP attacks.
- But you cannot FA attacks with 2 fast hits like Adons far st.HK or Sagats st.HK or attacks with cancels like Ryus cr.mk. Unless you use Red Focus.
- When hitting a blocked level 1 FADC you are likely to catch a counter hit if you push buttons due to being in frame disadvantage.
- When hitting a blocked level 2 FADC you can continue pressure due to frame advantage.
There are also some more things like FADCing and punish Ryus Hadouken after a close to max distance cr.mk due to it not being a real blockstring. Try finding other things out yourself.
CountBlack
Member
Yea I should've mentioned his fast walk speed, definitely a positive. Kneeshot really only works as much as your opponent will let you. It can be tricky but it's still a jump in attack that can get blown up easily. It can be low profiled, AA'd easily by normals. They buffed and nerfed it in this version so it isn't as bad as it used to be (couldn't combo on tall characters) but they nerfed the damage to compensate so the damage on the non tall characters.. didn't really change. His slide is a decent anti air and doesn't really do much else. Really punishable on block anywhere outside of the tip. Used to be better in SSF4 because of how fast/far it was but it changed for the better and worse. I'd really like to have a choice of which slide to use and if the hitbox was lowered so going under fireballs was a lot more viable in his fireball game, but that's just a coke dream
There's not a lot of instances where you will actually get off a red focus or level 3 focus with Deejay since his FA range is terrible. See here. Also, the damage he gets off of focus attack is extremely mediocre, especially since he's a charge character.
Typical charge character damage? Chun/Honda/Guile/Balrog/arguably Bison do more damage.
Blanka/Vega I would say is on the same page for damage output.
The changes for ex. machine gun blow didn't warrant it being more negative on block; if they actually buffed the invincibility I'd definitely understand it, but they nerfed that too making it barely viable.
Akuma/Chun/Bison/Vega have faster walk speed, further throw range and more throw damage. All these characters have more opportunities to throw while having extra benefits over Deejay, I just don't know why he couldn't he in the same group as them with either damage or range.
He just feels like a character that is incomplete. In the latest version they've actually taken a step forward with attempting to make him a better character, but that was after arguably nerfing him the worst out of the whole cast going in the Ultra console build. A lot of his changes were to just keep him away from hitting gold (B tier). Medium Sobat got extra + frames on his so FADC combos were easier.. why not heavy? The combos were already easy to do, why did they just make the MK Sobat extra positive? It's things like this that show me that they just don't want him to be good. Purposely keeping him mediocre.
I still don't know a character that has bad matchups like he does. He barely does well against characters he should be winning free against. He also has an abnormally big hitbox that allows longer/more damaging combos to work against him. Guile got his hitbox changed to help him out and Deejay remained the same :/.
Blanka 7-3
Rose 7-3 (I'd honestly say 8-2)
Elena 7-3
And lots of 6-4's.
He truly is the Black Dan ¯\_(ツ
_/¯He truly is the Black Dan ¯\_(ツ
Dan was meant to be terrible, though.
Yea I should've mentioned his fast walk speed, definitely a positive. Kneeshot really only works as much as your opponent will let you. It can be tricky but it's still a jump in attack that can get blown up easily. It can be low profiled, AA'd easily by normals. They buffed and nerfed it in this version so it isn't as bad as it used to be (couldn't combo on tall characters) but they nerfed the damage to compensate so the damage on the non tall characters.. didn't really change. His slide is a decent anti air and doesn't really do much else. Really punishable on block anywhere outside of the tip. Used to be better in SSF4 because of how fast/far it was but it changed for the better and worse. I'd really like to have a choice of which slide to use and if the hitbox was lowered so going under fireballs was a lot more viable in his fireball game, but that's just a coke dream
There's not a lot of instances where you will actually get off a red focus or level 3 focus with Deejay since his FA range is terrible. See here. Also, the damage he gets off of focus attack is extremely mediocre, especially since he's a charge character.
Typical charge character damage? Chun/Honda/Guile/Balrog/arguably Bison do more damage.
Blanka/Vega I would say is on the same page for damage output.
The changes for ex. machine gun blow didn't warrant it being more negative on block; if they actually buffed the invincibility I'd definitely understand it, but they nerfed that too making it barely viable.
Akuma/Chun/Bison/Vega have faster walk speed, further throw range and more throw damage. All these characters have more opportunities to throw while having extra benefits over Deejay, I just don't know why he couldn't he in the same group as them with either damage or range.
He just feels like a character that is incomplete. In the latest version they've actually taken a step forward with attempting to make him a better character, but that was after arguably nerfing him the worst out of the whole cast going in the Ultra console build. A lot of his changes were to just keep him away from hitting gold (B tier). Medium Sobat got extra + frames on his so FADC combos were easier.. why not heavy? The combos were already easy to do, why did they just make the MK Sobat extra positive? It's things like this that show me that they just don't want him to be good. Purposely keeping him mediocre.
I still don't know a character that has bad matchups like he does. He barely does well against characters he should be winning free against. He also has an abnormally big hitbox that allows longer/more damaging combos to work against him. Guile got his hitbox changed to help him out and Deejay remained the same :/.
Blanka 7-3
Rose 7-3 (I'd honestly say 8-2)
Elena 7-3
And lots of 6-4's.
He truly is the Black Dan ¯_(ツ
Stop comparing him to other characters.
He has top 5 walkspeed, a top 5 anti air, a freaking sonic boom, and a way to bypass projectiles in the mid-range.
Deejay players need to figure their shit out.
They did. CountBlackue picked Elena for instance.
DryEyeRelief
Member
There are too many characters in USFIV. Most active fighting game on its sixth year and people still don't know the game beyond their own main.
CountBlack
Member
You brought up his damage being typical for charge characters, I showed you that it wasn't.
Please don't compare Deejay's fireball to Guile's, they're not even in the same league fam. Ex Sobat kick is very easy to stay out of the range and he can't do it until the fireball is in his face so if you're throwing at that range you're playing it wrong. The match of Bonchan vs Kitasenju DJ shows that.
You wondered why Kitasenju seemed to be playing so bad and it wasn't that he was playing off, it was because Bonchan had his fireball spacing on point and his anti-airs so Deejay couldn't knee shot in. Kitasenju couldn't win the fireball game, Kitasenju couldn't ex Sobat to bypass mid-screen projectiles (because he didn't throw them at that range when he had meter). His top 5 walkspeed didn't mean shit.
If you understood the game and character more, you'd understand, but frankly you don't.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯You brought up his damage being typical for charge characters, I showed you that it wasn't.
Please don't compare Deejay's fireball to Guile's, they're not even in the same league fam. Ex Sobat kick is very easy to stay out of the range and he can't do it until the fireball is in his face so if you're throwing at that range you're playing it wrong. The match of Bonchan vs Kitasenju DJ shows that.
You wondered why Kitasenju seemed to be playing so bad and it wasn't that he was playing off, it was because Bonchan had his fireball spacing on point and his anti-airs so Deejay couldn't knee shot in. Kitasenju couldn't win the fireball game, Kitasenju couldn't ex Sobat to bypass mid-screen projectiles (because he didn't throw them at that range when he had meter). His top 5 walkspeed didn't mean shit.
If you understood the game and character more, you'd understand, but frankly you don't.
¯_(ツ
You didnt show me anything. Your making blanket statements about damage without bringing up numbers or anything. Bisons bnb of cr.lk x3>medium scissors does 140 damage. Deejay does more than that. Chun Li cr.lk x3> ex legs does 168. Sure they might be getting more damage in certain situations but Deejay isnt outclassed in the damage department here.
Im not comparing Deejays fireball to Guiles, but its a very good fireball...12f startup with 26f of recovery thats pretty good. And he has an invincible hitbox that he can travel behind with his fast walkspeed. Thats huge.
Kitasenju isnt in Bonchans league, very few players are. You cant bring up an individual match where he loses badly against one of the best in the world and use it to illustrate a point. There's a bunch of matches with Kitasenju where hes doing really well in the same ranges.
sixteen-bit
Member
Exr
Member
As a guy who has like 4.5K bp (not sayibg im good just saying that to show time put in) with Deejay hes not good. He has some pros but once youre actually using him in these matches its not as great as it may sound on paper to some of you who have little to no experience using DeeJay.
CountBlack
Member
Bison's BnB damage is poor, but his specials at least do more damage.
Bison and Chun get a lot off damage off of playing the footsie game/their normals. Deejay doesn't have the same opportunities to do the same damage because his normals are just not good.
Guile gets 245 off of lp,lp,cr.MP FK
Honda gets 235 off of hands
Rog gets 162 off of lp,lp, cr.lk HB
All these characters have better normals than Deejay as well which leads to more damage opportunities for them.
Can't answer for Blanka/Vega since I don't know their BnB's all too well.
If you didn't meant compare Deejay's fireball to Guile's then don't call it a Sonic boom and just call it a regular fireball. It has 37f of recovery and ex has 52f of recovery. Not great not awful. Him walking behind fireballs can help him get in on some characters, but an issue Deejay always had was opening people up. Without an overhead his offence is very linear and simple to block. He doesn't have any frame traps you should be worried about, throw range is ass so he has to be basically inside you to get his grab off.
I know Kitasenju isn't in Bonchan's league but I trying to point out that his ex. Sobat kick isn't that viable of an option when you're playing against someone that knows the matchup. It's not just as easy as walking down Sagat when the player is smart enough not to put himself into the corner.
That Guile combo does 214.
You're off by more than 10 frames on Deejays fireball recovery. Regular has 26 and EX has 40. Gotta seriously question your knowledge of the character there breh. His fireball has less total frames than Ryu's and Sagat's.
CountBlack
Member
HK Flash kick? Wait you're right, I tested it before I posted but posted the wrong numbers. I might've done something else, either way, still more damage than Deejay.
And where are you getting your frame data? I've checked 3 different places and they all say 37 for regular and EX is 52.
I don't understand this statement.
The whole point of character strength is relativity. If someone says Dee Jay is weak then that means he is weak compared to other characters in the game not weak in a vacuum.
And if Dee Jay has a Sonic Boom then I have a Stone Cold Stunner....
CountBlack
Member
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/may/06/dee-jays-frame-data-super-street-fighter-4/
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4p3BHtGeFr2a1ZPSlhOZFYxVVk&usp=drive_web
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Deejay
USF4 bits app as well
I wonder which sites might be more credible ¯\_(ツ
_/¯
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I agree. They really need to stop with the amount of characters. SFV shouldn't have nearly as many characters IV by the time it's over.
irfaanator
Banned
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/may/06/dee-jays-frame-data-super-street-fighter-4/
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4p3BHtGeFr2a1ZPSlhOZFYxVVk&usp=drive_web
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Deejay
USF4 bits app as well
I wonder which sites might be more credible ¯\_(ツ
shoryuken is def wrong since I checked some of their elena stuff a while back and that wasnt accurate, and I would never trust eventhubs
CountBlack
Member
What was wrong with Elena's?
irfaanator
Banned
edit: nvm
before it wasnt updated w/ the new scratch wheel frame data.
Also the link I posted is in line w/ what you said anyways, but I think the way it's worded in the wiki/srk is wrong.
I think it means total duration of the move is 39/52 frames. idk why its worded like that though
before it wasnt updated w/ the new scratch wheel frame data.
Also the link I posted is in line w/ what you said anyways, but I think the way it's worded in the wiki/srk is wrong.
I think it means total duration of the move is 39/52 frames. idk why its worded like that though
direct_quote
Member
But new characters bring in the short time relevance again.. USF4 definitely gave SF4 a boost in relevance..
Shouta
Member
Right. Also, having positives doesn't not negate the fact that he's a weak character. Super and AE T.Hawk were ass characters that had some positives that didn't negate the fact he was pretty ass.
Blackule's list is great and you can easily extrapolate issues from those points. Dee Jay does poor damage? That means it's way harder for him to make comebacks or keep up in slobberknocker of a fight. That's a huge issue and affects a character's viability. etc
In the context of "why do Akuma, Chun, and Vega get more damage off their throws than Deejay"
Because they're different characters.
"Why does Deejay have 1000 stun and Guile have 900"
"Why does Sagat have slower walkspeed than Ryu"
Etc.
Edit: and a lot of Blackules points are just flat out wrong. Deejay doesn't even have low damage he has average damage.
Because they're different characters.
"Why does Deejay have 1000 stun and Guile have 900"
"Why does Sagat have slower walkspeed than Ryu"
Etc.
Edit: and a lot of Blackules points are just flat out wrong. Deejay doesn't even have low damage he has average damage.
shaowebb
Member
Is there anyway to stream from 3ds? If so there needs to be some side tourney fun for that Dragon Ball Z Extreme Butoden game. This shit looks like mad fun
Edit: DAMN.
Edit: DAMN.
Karsticles
Member
You have to specially mod the 3DS.
CountBlack
Member
lmao if Deejay doesn't have low damage then who does?
shaowebb
Member
Damn. This thing is pretty wild. No idea what the balance is like but it'd definitely draw viewers on a stream with how well it handles the combat and franchise. They really need to get on that 3ds streaming stuff someday. If not that then some kind of big picture mode device that you can stream from that lets you run a game on the big screen from your 3ds.
Would love to see something to let folks showcase that system's library and this title would really be a fun one to side tourney at an event sometime
Shouta
Member
Blackule just posted my response. The only time I've seen him do average damage was with that combo Kitasenju DJ recently but that was average and he spent what, 2 bars for it? Oh and I guess super into Ultra but that's full resources.
The only person that's probably worse in regards to overall damage is Dhalsim.
FadedRevolution
Member
We need a game like this on ps4, xbox, or pc. It would be great to have a DBZ game on the main stage of evo.
Yang, Bison, Dhalsim, Adon, Blanka, Cammy
Even Sagat, Ryu, Ken outside of ultra are landing around the same damage wise in the midrange as Deejay.
CountBlack
Member
Yang and Cammy both had their damage lowered and deserved it. High mixup/oki characters should have low damage, but.. I don't necessarily think they do Deejay damage.
Yang surprisingly does more damage off his basic bnb's. (cr.lk,lk,lk heavy rekka - 180dmg).
Blanka/Sim I can agree with doing less damage. I don't mess with Blanka at all so I can't really get into that.
The damage Adon was getting off of just jaguar kicks was stupid and needed to be toned down. His best poke (and one of the best normals in the game) st.HK does 120dmg.. fam that's like a Deejay Bnb right there. 120 damage for a heavy kick that's only -3 on block. what a time to be alive. 2 hits too smfh
Bison's damage is overall mediocre, he does get more damage off his specials though. Combo wise it might be a tie. Bison gets a better advantage off the knockdown with PC though.
Sagat's still does kitten uppercuts I agree.
Ryu does great damage, just not a lot of opportunities to get them off. Don't agree there.
Don't agree with Ken either. His BnB's ending with heavy SRK do 170+. And if they're standing you can go for heavy/ex tatsu for the same/more damage.
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