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Fighting Game Community || Stream Monster Headquarters
- Thread starter "God's Beard!"
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I don't know if Kokonoe could always do this, but these BBCF combos look pretty sick.
Professor Beef
Banned
The camera is too zoomed in so you're forced to rely on a dumb radar system. Too busy fighting someone in front of you? Fuck you, someone smacked you from your blind spot. Better keep an eye on it! The camera is also locked in one position, so good luck with that!
The controls may be responsive, but the movement controls still blow. Tank controls fucking sucked in RE1, but you had all the time in the world to work with them because the game was slow-paced. If you fuck up in GH, then you have to run alllllllllllllllllll the way around and circle back so you can reposition yourself. God forbid the enemies chase you (and they will) and they attack you or run around your side which messes up your positioning so you have to do that shit again. You shouldn't have to fight the movement options just to attack someone; that makes your game a bad one.
Let it be known, however, that I never said you can't have fun with the game. It's for sure a turd, but it has some entertaining bits. And if you can get past the shit movement, then the battle system is pretty enjoyable. But that's all I'm willing to concede.
She always had that weird stuff, it lead to bullshit 50/50s. Her having Megido is pretty hysterical though.
Have a really strong tournament https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiLhFy5JBIU
Tsujikawa Tao, Kubo Hibiki, Puromete Litchi, etc.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Oh god, thanks for the warning.
is overall damage lower in bbcf or something? i dno much about bb but those numbers look a bit smaller than i remember bnbs doing.
So just like every action game ever made you have a camera which focuses on a small section of the battlefield and in every action game ever made you can get hit from off screen enemies. With the exception of God of War which has a very zoomed out fixed camera (which has its own host of problems) and DMC2 which is a true turd of a game.
Unlike other games where you can also get hit from a camera blind spot AND the camera isn't fixed so sometimes it can get stuck somewhere or it spazzes out. None of these issues exist for Godhand so in many ways it has a superior camera to most action games. It's all about how you utilize the camera with your movement which brings us to the next point and what I feel is the crux of the issue at hand...
Essentially every point you brought up can be boiled down to "game has tank controls so the game is bad".
The first point you bring up is that if you fuck up in Godhand you have to circle all the way back to re-position yourself. This is FACTUALLY incorrect because the game has L1 designated to a 180 degree turn which turns you around quick so if someone is behind you then you can easily reposition.
Secondly, your next point talks about fighting against the controls when you are being chased... wait what? Why is this an issue? You shouldn't' be running away from enemies you are supposed to be fighting them head on, it's an ACTION game. You should be sprinting towards enemies and dash attacking into them. If you are getting chased then you are already losing.
A lot of the issues you list about enemies hitting you from sides is stuff that you get over quick at the start once you learn how to dodge. Dodging positions yourself extremely well in this game. The enemy aggros in a way where if you keep dodging they realign themselves to be in your cone of vision. Of course if you are a bad player and you are surrounded by enemies then you will get bopped, that's how the game was designed. It's not a crowd control game where you can swing your weapon and cleave a row of enemies... it's a tightly designed brawler where getting out numbered is bad for you and you need to dodge a lot to survive. Thankfully the dodge system is amazing so that's not an issue. They were even nice enough to give us a radar system that even shows you projectiles on the radar. That alone makes it 100 times better than Ninja Gaiden where you can get destroyed by off screen enemies despite having free movement and non tank controls.
Atm certain characters def took damage hits, but the overall damage is only slightly lower. It's week one, it could go up, although I expect some characters to stay around the same.
Karsticles
Member
Do BB fans like having all of their combo knowledge reset with every iteration?
This review is both hilarious and spot on.
Tizoc
Member
DS2's combat is good, but IMO DS is more of an action adventure game, with emphasis on adventure and exploration.
A little late but its a damn tragedy that my boy sigma hasn't been in a fighting game yet.
I mean c'mon.
Co-sign, if there was ever a villain from Capcom that should get into a Versus/Crossover series it's Sigma.
No, it's pretty annoying but also pretty minor. You don't hear about it too often cause anybody who actually plays BB is usually good enough with a character's routes to adjust. If it's a big update like CT > CS > CP > CF it's to be expected so nobody cares. Also if the new routes are an improvement of course people will just learn them too and be happy to have them.
The thing everybody actually hates is how drastic and unnecessary ASW will adjust key parts of entire toolsets in minor updates. That's the main reason a lot of players kinda dropped off in CP iirc, they didn't like the ongoing nerf factory of 1.0 > 1.1 > CPEX, especially since a lot of people really liked 1.0 until Kokonoe happened. Stuff like Rachel wind nerf is completely disgusting, and Ram in Xrd 1.1 got the worst ASW treatment. Like Rachel players went from a pretty acceptable strong character to having to relearn the entire game and dropping 3 tiers in one update that didn't change much of the game. Ram went through a non content update that didn't alter much where she went from top 3-4 to bottom 3.
They do this in every ASW game btw, it's just more noticeable in BB due to how combos work. In CF with combos they actually kept a lot of CPEX combo pieces in place and simplified things like enders for a lot of characters, so it's not so bad this time around.
Basically relearning combos is annoying but like, you knock it out real fast. Relearning the game is a huge pain in the ass when there isn't a total overhaul and everybody despises it.
Professor Beef
Banned
You never have problems finding enemies in GoW unless they're in one of the corridor sections. And even then, you can lock-on to them and you never have to worry about someone else hitting you. GH's camera forces you to rely on the radar while also keeping you locked straight ahead of you. It's a world of difference, and GH is absolutely inferior. You shouldn't have to "utilize" the camera, the camera should should be clear as day and show you exactly what's going on. The only exception is for dramatic or specific shots, it's fucking bonkers in an action game. If you could zoom out, or even manually reposition the camera without being forced to move Gene as well, then it'd be perfect. Hilariously, that isn't the case. It's not even a generational thing either, it's only God Hand. Other games released that year let you move the camera, so what's Clover's excuse?
Even with a turn around button (just like MK Mythologies), it's still stupid. You run from enemies because sometimes they sneak up on you, or in the case of boss battles they all rush you at once. Or did all of the bosses just play nice with you and wait until you were done with one before attacking? Because even good players pull their hair out trying to fight 3 or 5 bosses at once without making a mistake. Or are you so godlike that you never did that? You just pulled a 180? Wow, impressive. Too bad that my point still stands. Rushing headfirst into a group just to dash attack them isn't the best thing to do on average. Most players, in an effort to avoid these issues, will purposely aggro one enemy at a time just so there's less annoyance and less of a chance that positioning goes bad. I follow tminator on Twitch (Viewtiful Joe speedrunner who regularly does Kick-Me Sign runs in GH), and he gets frustrated with the exact same shit I'm complaining about.
Dodging away from enemies is a slower way to reposition yourself compared to flat-out running, but you're doing essentially the same thing. You're moving away from the group to get into a better position. The thing is that sometimes you have to run and you don't have time to dodge dodge dodge dodge. Then you have to find a good spot to turn around and try again. It completely kills the momentum and it is one of the things I hate most about the game. With God of War and Bayo you have groups too, but you've got far better movement options available to you in case things go south. And God of War was released in 2005. Again...what's Clover's excuse?
Karsticles
Member
Hmm. You think they are learning to be better with this stuff?
What was the Rachel wind nerf? I know Pumpkin was removed for bats, but I haven't found play that does show bats in action. I watched 4 hours of CF today, though.
I am fine with the Ram nerf. She was pretty dumb before. If she needs help elsewhere, fine, but make her work for what she does. It was a little too free before.
Tizoc
Member
That time of the week again
1 Hour of BlazBlue CF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRjmsmtwLB4
1 hour of Guilty Gear Xrd R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMJyoa5nHz4
Dead or Alive 5 matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJcJJYiEA9E
2 Hours of Daemon Bride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlKJKvjKuVQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgVAlYieY3A
2 Hours of BlazBlue CP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=movzXelYzfU
2+ Hours of Persona 4 AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVS4HDjCpkc
Sengoku Hime matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w5PeqPtPgc
1 Hour of Under Night InBirth matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa43alad7Cw
2+ Hours of Melty Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OE100RqySw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uJoVQ0lyNY
1 Hour of BlazBlue CF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRjmsmtwLB4
1 hour of Guilty Gear Xrd R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMJyoa5nHz4
Dead or Alive 5 matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJcJJYiEA9E
2 Hours of Daemon Bride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlKJKvjKuVQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgVAlYieY3A
2 Hours of BlazBlue CP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=movzXelYzfU
2+ Hours of Persona 4 AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVS4HDjCpkc
Sengoku Hime matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w5PeqPtPgc
1 Hour of Under Night InBirth matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa43alad7Cw
2+ Hours of Melty Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OE100RqySw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uJoVQ0lyNY
In 1.1 Rachel had lots of wind. In CPEX, they made wind regen so horrible she would never really have above 2-3 max after the round start. Ram was really bullshit before, but just destroying literally everything about how she plays and sending her to the unplayable tier of the game is disgusting. If you make a character that is just busted bullshit, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that's their design and adjust to make it work in relation to the cast, not just break it and remove what people did with the character. You can't give people a full year with that, especially something they had to build up over that time, then just say "the character will no longer work like this" unless you're committed to an overhaul.
They're seeming to get better about this stuff, but you never know. Between full revisions they seem to do okay, it's when they start to roll back on their character designs mid-game that it gets obnoxious. CP 1.0 is a good example, that game was unbalanced but in hindsight nobody cared because it was fun and everybody at least did something. Probably was the best version of BBCP until Kokonoe came along. Going from 1.0 > 1.1 > CPEX they just kept taking out and going back on their designs between each version, stripping out the unique and fun aspects every time. I got lucky in the sense most of my characters ended up good and interesting in some way, but the game overall has way less personality and just fun stuff happening.
1.0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdHgbOtyon0
BBCPEX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQRMlfbO44
You can pretty easily see that 1.0 was fucking wild in comparison but it was way more fun and interesting.
Lolololololololo god of war
Master Milk
Member
did you read that interview from the japanese battle designers that was posted the other day?
I see. Rarely ever see anything like those combos being used in tournaments so I had no idea.
This has been pretty entertaining so far, thanks. Hibiki seems pretty good. Naoto kind of seems like he'd fit into UNI lol
Karsticles
Member
Watching presently. I don't disagree on Ram. Do we know if she is better in Rev?
I did not. Would you link it here so I can?
direct_quote
Member
You should watch Mike Kob's videos if you want to see a mastery of the combat system. I think only a couple things the game needed was the ability to switch targets, and when you run away to be able to lock onto an enemy (which is why you see Mike use the roulette wheel to do that). Fighting multiple enemies you usually rely on counter hits on kick me sign runs (because that allows you to knock enemies back on Must Die level). I think the only thing that really is a pain in God Hand is 8-1 without roullettes, where I don't think the game was balanced for 8 or so enemies without God Hand or roulette (that's if you do a fresh kms run, if you go through the game with god hand abilities or use unblockable moves it's easier) .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pwf5JmMnDc&list=PLc3QkV-L-tFslpt8zG6mupKLlb19XHAb1
I personally think God Hand has some of the funnest boss fights in gaming, where I don't feel like I need to cheese them to just finish the fight. It's a shame we won't get God Hand 2 where a couple tweaks to the combat system would make it perfect, not to mention God Hand is the one and only action game with a highly customizable move set.
There are no changes to SIGN characters. There is a rev 1.03 coming out but it only adjusts the 3 new characters.
Professor Beef
Banned
My issue isn't with combat, it's with the camera and general movement. The combat is fun...when you only have to deal with one enemy at a time.
Master Milk
Member
Thomasorus
Member
GG, KOF, Tekken, MK, Smash and random jp fighters were already there between 2000 and 2008 and it was the "dark era" and most of them will always be there.
The most logical thing they can do after SF5 (or maybe they are already planning it) is probably a kind of Capcom All Stars sold as a Marvel vs Capcom. For a few reasons :
- The tech is here, they just have to make the game and like MVC3 compared to SF4, models don't have to be as detailed, just stylish
- Going with the same business model as SF5 but with team game makes you buy/earn more characters
- Shit tons of characters can be added
- The scene needs a new Marvel gameplay related game, there's demand and nobody is filling it
- They skip the IP problems and don't make the same mistakes they did with UMVC3
- In the end two Capcom games built for esports = a massive visibility
Why not?
Master Milk
Member
Why not?
Because Capcom doesn't want to pay for it
- They skip the IP problems and don't make the same mistakes they did with UMVC3
- In the end two Capcom games built for esports = a massive visibility
Why not?
The IP's are a huge part of the appeal and identity of the series. I know it's why I was interested in the original so much.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Really hard to not get frustrated when you keep losing when you think you're improving but it feels you really aren't. But then you realize that you've come a long, long way and that the losses mean nothing. Through all of that, I forget that I won 5 matches tonight. I fought about 30 matches, but that's pretty good for me. Everyone is telling me how much I've improved. "You are getting better!" "You've got a solid grasp of the big picture." "Your pressure is MEAN now!"
With other video games, measuring improvement is winning all the time. But in this game, measuring improvement is playing smarter, safer, learning player psychology, having your inputs down to muscle memory, tactics, evasive maneuvers to those tactics. So much goes into it.
It's so satisfying, yet extremely frustrating to lose while getting better. I'm routinely getting people in the corner now with my pressure. I'm starting to get when they're going to go for a throw. I'm focusing and implementing it into my poking game. I'm poking. I'm using great projectile zoning. I'm using the full gamut of what the game systems offer. And despite all the frustration, despite all the LOSSES, I still feel like I'm always learning something valuable every time I play.
I can understand why the genre doesn't blow up for certain people. The ceiling is so high and it requires so much effort and it completely goes against everything video games have taught you.
But I can't get enough.
Despite the frustration.
Despite the 10% win rate.
With other video games, measuring improvement is winning all the time. But in this game, measuring improvement is playing smarter, safer, learning player psychology, having your inputs down to muscle memory, tactics, evasive maneuvers to those tactics. So much goes into it.
It's so satisfying, yet extremely frustrating to lose while getting better. I'm routinely getting people in the corner now with my pressure. I'm starting to get when they're going to go for a throw. I'm focusing and implementing it into my poking game. I'm poking. I'm using great projectile zoning. I'm using the full gamut of what the game systems offer. And despite all the frustration, despite all the LOSSES, I still feel like I'm always learning something valuable every time I play.
I can understand why the genre doesn't blow up for certain people. The ceiling is so high and it requires so much effort and it completely goes against everything video games have taught you.
But I can't get enough.
Despite the frustration.
Despite the 10% win rate.
ShinMaruku
Member
I got a 17% win rate and I just took a break.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Almost never. Only doing this right now due to the Indivisible campaign. Wanted to add a character to it without making myself unidentifiable so I stuck Qadira's face in the jar. After it's finished Grunty is putting her head back in its case
Professor Beef
Banned
Really hard to not get frustrated when you keep losing when you think you're improving but it feels you really aren't. But then you realize that you've come a long, long way and that the losses mean nothing. Through all of that, I forget that I won 5 matches tonight. I fought about 30 matches, but that's pretty good for me. Everyone is telling me how much I've improved. "You are getting better!" "You've got a solid grasp of the big picture." "Your pressure is MEAN now!"
With other video games, measuring improvement is winning all the time. But in this game, measuring improvement is playing smarter, safer, learning player psychology, having your inputs down to muscle memory, tactics, evasive maneuvers to those tactics. So much goes into it.
It's so satisfying, yet extremely frustrating to lose while getting better. I'm routinely getting people in the corner now with my pressure. I'm starting to get when they're going to go for a throw. I'm focusing and implementing it into my poking game. I'm poking. I'm using great projectile zoning. I'm using the full gamut of what the game systems offer. And despite all the frustration, despite all the LOSSES, I still feel like I'm always learning something valuable every time I play.
I can understand why the genre doesn't blow up for certain people. The ceiling is so high and it requires so much effort and it completely goes against everything video games have taught you.
But I can't get enough.
Despite the frustration.
Despite the 10% win rate.
I know it's been like that since Super, but the DJ image is just so fitting lol
Glad to hear that you're happy with your improvement, though! I know that feeling of wanting to quit too. I think everyone has had that feeling.
petran79
Banned
Really hard to not get frustrated when you keep losing when you think you're improving but it feels you really aren't. But then you realize that you've come a long, long way and that the losses mean nothing. Through all of that, I forget that I won 5 matches tonight. I fought about 30 matches, but that's pretty good for me. Everyone is telling me how much I've improved. "You are getting better!" "You've got a solid grasp of the big picture." "Your pressure is MEAN now!"
With other video games, measuring improvement is winning all the time. But in this game, measuring improvement is playing smarter, safer, learning player psychology, having your inputs down to muscle memory, tactics, evasive maneuvers to those tactics. So much goes into it.
It's so satisfying, yet extremely frustrating to lose while getting better. I'm routinely getting people in the corner now with my pressure. I'm starting to get when they're going to go for a throw. I'm focusing and implementing it into my poking game. I'm poking. I'm using great projectile zoning. I'm using the full gamut of what the game systems offer. And despite all the frustration, despite all the LOSSES, I still feel like I'm always learning something valuable every time I play.
I can understand why the genre doesn't blow up for certain people. The ceiling is so high and it requires so much effort and it completely goes against everything video games have taught you.
But I can't get enough.
Despite the frustration.
Despite the 10% win rate.
If I were able to win above 50 % at SFIV I am certain I'd have the reflexes to be better at a lot of other games. Eg finishing Super Meat Boy, 1 cc a shmup etc
I just dont have it to reach that far. Even then I think I reached my limit already.
Who'd you play in SF4? Cammy?
ShinMaruku
Member
At 17% in sf4. But in DOA I am sitting at 65% so I am at good points.
Professor Beef
Banned
Sitting at 55% on PC. It dropped a bunch thanks to trying to learn Dan and Yang.
...probably wasn't much higher tbh
...probably wasn't much higher tbh
Sakura. I got to the point where I could get top in locals and get out of or to finals of pools at stuff and fight good players, but I would get dismantled by people like Justin and so on cause I was actually pretty asscheeks by tournament standards. Back before I was "Anne" and out of the closet I would go to events and get shat on though lmao. At about that point I stopped playing and went and learned a lot of fighting game stuff in other games.
Edit: Actually that timeline only makes sense to me cause that lines up with when I started to play seriously cause lol coping. Before then I just went to events as mostly a spectator cause I liked going on trips with my high school friends who mashed out the game at a friend's house throughout senior year.
It would be nice for fighting games to separate their stats into weeks or sets of 100 games or something like that. I've known people who stress out about their win/loss rate in games and the fact that they are stuck with the losses on their records from when they first started playing. It would be more encouraging to see how those stats change over time so people can see how they have improved. Even if you have a bad period of games you can look to improve it over the next period without stressing about it being on your record forever.
Of course the easy thing to say is just ignore it, but some people really do care about their records / rank.
Of course the easy thing to say is just ignore it, but some people really do care about their records / rank.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I wish they would do "seasons", based around capcom cup or whatever. And divide it up that way. Stats, online rank and everything. Treat it like sports seasons. You can still have a total of everything in the background or something.
Having insomnia fits so I went and watched some BB stuff.
Damage isn't really down all that much atm, it's very slight and varies character to character. Tighter combo restrictions mean some conversions lose a bit but it'll be made up for. Any lower damage is character specific type stuff and will probably be made up for past day one unless it's already pretty significant.
Combo parts are a bit more straightforward and combo length tends to be slightly smaller. Probably why it feels less damaging when in reality 3-3.5k average on good hits is similar and pretty common.
Active Flow bonus is almost insignificant in a lot of situations. Getting the burst gain is nice but considering how OD/burst usage go I don't think it'll be too huge. The idea of use Exceed to get active flow looks not nearly as good as it would be. The safe reversal aspect of it is still pretty good, but OD activate > Exceed means it's a lot more limited than people think.
Some tools look really strong atm like Azrael DP but after looking at them more I think the game is gonna need time and answers. Giving that character a real DP is stupid and already just annoying and scary in it's own right, but honestly it doesn't look like a good DP.
Damage isn't really down all that much atm, it's very slight and varies character to character. Tighter combo restrictions mean some conversions lose a bit but it'll be made up for. Any lower damage is character specific type stuff and will probably be made up for past day one unless it's already pretty significant.
Combo parts are a bit more straightforward and combo length tends to be slightly smaller. Probably why it feels less damaging when in reality 3-3.5k average on good hits is similar and pretty common.
Active Flow bonus is almost insignificant in a lot of situations. Getting the burst gain is nice but considering how OD/burst usage go I don't think it'll be too huge. The idea of use Exceed to get active flow looks not nearly as good as it would be. The safe reversal aspect of it is still pretty good, but OD activate > Exceed means it's a lot more limited than people think.
Some tools look really strong atm like Azrael DP but after looking at them more I think the game is gonna need time and answers. Giving that character a real DP is stupid and already just annoying and scary in it's own right, but honestly it doesn't look like a good DP.
SquirrelSoup
Member
I really hope a bunch of characters in BB get easy combo routes again. Pretty annoyed when they took some of those out.
Sometimes i just wanna settle for easier less damaging combo options, like when i'm nervous, looking to close a round, or playing online under water.
Oh yes. I want this so much.
Sometimes i just wanna settle for easier less damaging combo options, like when i'm nervous, looking to close a round, or playing online under water.
Oh yes. I want this so much.
Neither SMB, shmups or SFIV are really about reflexes all that much.
Holy Order Sol
Member
CountBlack
Member
can we talk about daigo for a minute pls
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Its not like they havent gotten it right before, at least I feel Nu-12 in BBCT > Lambda in BBCS was handled well, and hell, 1.1 kokonoe was handled well as well
this hurt CPE so bad. Every character got super difficult. Took me forever to get some of my noel routes down, and I still struggle with them on netplay. Frustrating after CP which felt like one of the easiest versions across the board for execution
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