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Fighting Game Community || Stream Monster Headquarters

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speaking of... best home port of KoF 97 is Wii VC, yeah?

I think it's either that or the jp ps2 Orochi Collection but not entirely sure on that. US Wii Orochi Collection is good too if you don't mind the flashing ko effect being removed. At least I think it was removed just like how they removed the hit flashes from Metal Slug.
 

WarRock

Member
Is here even a game where P1 has different options than P2?
Non fighting games? Plenty.

Fighting games... depends. Playing a single character in Skullgirls vs a team counts?

Like I said- I think it's preference. For me, MU-asymmetry is a strength of fighting games. I don't want to play old MK games where everybody's normals are the same. Characters being meaningfully different is interesting. Going too far in the character-uniqueness direction is bad too though, imo. It's a balancing act- homogenize too much and it's boring; diversify too much and the game lacks coherence.
This may sound weird but... how do you feel about Samurai Shodown? Some people said to me that they felt the game was more homogeneous than other 2D fighters since everybody can rip a counter hit fierce for 60% and has similar defensive options (rolls, disarms, ducks, etc).
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I also think forcing specialization will also screw the game overall of some skill by needlessly tying down players who could do better with bigger pool of characters thus enriching the game than tying them down to 1 or 2 characters.
Except them DJ lovers, they made their bed let them sleep in it. :E
 

4r5

Member
This may sound weird but... how do you feel about Samurai Shodown? Some people said to me that they felt the game was more homogeneous than other 2D fighters since everybody can rip a counter hit fierce for 60% and has similar defensive options (rolls, disarms, ducks, etc).

Sure, everyone can rip huge damage, but that's missing the point. HOW are they netting their damage? Everyone has the standard set of defense options, but not everyone has the same ranges, speed, setups; offense.

Can someone tell me some good Venoms in AC/+R

N-O has been the Venom since XX, but I hear he hasn't been putting in the work for Xrd. Seeing the throne empty, Fino has been stepping it up.

Oh wait, I misread that. For AC/+R, N-O, Fino, and Heven (Haven? Heaven?) are the ones I hear a lot about.

Really, you shouldn't pay attention to players. Good play is good play, whether it's done by accident from a scrub, or purposefully perfect by a "God."
 

DunpealD

Member
Non fighting games? Plenty.

Fighting games... depends. Playing a single character in Skullgirls vs a team counts?

I don't think so. Using single character is still by choice.
I'd be interested to see how character bans à la dota would work in fighting games.
 
remember the good old days

mgYCInn.jpg
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't think so. Using single character is still by choice.
I'd be interested to see how character bans à la dota would work in fighting games.
Norcal Marvel scene played around with various ban rules for Marvel 3 last year IIRC. It was pretty fun although the best players still managed to win because ban rules actually hurt lower tier character specialists more (like you ban KBR's Hulk).
 

DunpealD

Member
Norcal Marvel scene played around with various ban rules for Marvel 3 last year IIRC. It was pretty fun although the best players still managed to win because ban rules actually hurt lower tier character specialists more (like you ban KBR's Hulk).

Yes, the problem is bans do hurt specialists a lot. I wonder how it would fare for something like EXVS, KoF13, USFIV(special case) or games with big cast and lower barriers. Though to be fair 3s and SFA3 might make some interesting cases too.
 

Essay

Member
That ban hurting specialists is also a pointer to making a game too match up dependant being a bad thing.

Eh, naw, no. Can't say I see how a fighting game's worth factors in its ability to be played under a newly-conceived rule-format that has little basis in its history of competitive play or in the developers' design. It's fine in single-player games that lack replay-value otherwise (i.e. challenge runs), but at what point does a good fighting game get predictable enough that the community would have to shake things up and make something like this part of the meta?

In DOTA, it's built right in the game's design, and new players coming into the community can see from the start that bans are the norm, no?

I'd shudder to think of trying to get new players into fighting games where they'd have to split their focus across multiple characters from the start, especially given how much harder it is to grind for competitive experience in fighting games. (Thank you, eternally-imperfect netplay.)

Or am I missing the point?
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Eh, naw, no. Can't say I see how a fighting game's worth factors in its ability to be played under a newly-conceived rule-format that has little basis in its history of competitive play or in the developers' design. It's fine in single-player games that lack replay-value otherwise (i.e. challenge runs), but at what point does a good fighting game get predictable enough that the community would have to shake things up and make something like this part of the meta?

In DOTA, it's built right in the game's design, and new players coming into the community can see from the start that bans are the norm, no?

I'd shudder to think of trying to get new players into fighting games where they'd have to split their focus across multiple characters from the start, especially given how much harder it is to grind for competitive experience in fighting games. (Thank you, eternally-imperfect netplay.)

Or am I missing the point?
Oh no you are not missing the point, bans are ill concived for fighting games. However I do think something that shakes up play by putting some people outside of their character comfort zones would be helpful.
 

Zissou

Member
Finally a xrd character primer to get people up to speed.

Non fighting games? Plenty.

Fighting games... depends. Playing a single character in Skullgirls vs a team counts?


This may sound weird but... how do you feel about Samurai Shodown? Some people said to me that they felt the game was more homogeneous than other 2D fighters since everybody can rip a counter hit fierce for 60% and has similar defensive options (rolls, disarms, ducks, etc).

Unfortunately not familiar enough with shodown to weigh in :(

Like 4r5 said though- how the characters' gameplans differ for ultimately scoring that high damage counterhit is what's more important.
 

Shouta

Member
Universal defense options in a game don't necessarily negate characters being asymmetrically different. It softens the edge of asymmetry but it doesn't make it symmetrical. It can give you an answer an attack but the counter is still dependent on character differences. That's where a match-up list would come into play. VF has tier lists and even match-up lists but they're a different beast than what you'd find in say Marvel or SF.

SF4 actually tried this with Focus but it's a failure as universal defense option IMO because there are still massive differences between focus attacks and dashes between char making it super good for some and super bad for others.
 

Essay

Member
Oh no you are not missing the point, bans are ill concived for fighting games. However I do think something that shakes up play by putting some people outside of their character comfort zones would be helpful.

This is why I liked all the old gameplay modes in the GGXX games. All the GG players in my city were well-versed in 3v3 Team Versus, random-select and a variety of interesting Gold character matchups we discovered. However, this was the sort of stuff we'd fall into at the end of a very long session when regular play stopped moving us forward.

I'd definitely argue it was helpful, sure, but that's only because we played that much in the first place. In a series like GG, where the skill-ceiling on the characters is as high as it is, you can only afford to mess around with your non-competitive characters so much though before things stop feeling productive, IMO. (At least, after you already dived deep-enough into in one and haven't hit a dead end.)

Because the majority of players see that investing in a single character, and maybe a counter-pick, is enough to realistically navigate them through the game's match-ups, while very few have success with small-investments in a variety of characters, I just don't think the enthusiasm will ever be there for this sort of stuff in the series.

KOF's one of my other favourite series though, and I could see myself getting into bans and ratio tournaments. Well... maybe not bans. I'd survive, but would be salty af if I went into a KOFXIII tournament specifically perfecting Vice's Mayhem>5LP link and Elizabeth'd awkward DP>DP drive cancel, only then to have those characters banned out from under me. Give me a KOF2k2UM ratio tournament any day though, so my ratio-0 May Lee Jinju has a purpose in life!
 

DunpealD

Member
That ban hurting specialists is also a pointer to making a game too match up dependant being a bad thing.

I don't think it has much to do with matchups, but rather difficult execution on top of the matchups. Dropping combos is one of the primary things you do not want to happen.
Which in SFV case seems to be amended and possibly eases up the use of multiple characters.

EDIT: Imagine every character being like Phase 4.

Good riddance.
Can't just drop something and leave us hanging, man. Give us at least a why.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I don't think it has much to do with matchups, but rather difficult execution on top of the matchups. Dropping combos is one of the primary things you do not want to happen.
Which in SFV case seems to be amended and possibly eases up the use of multiple characters.

EDIT: Imagine every character being like Phase 4.
As a Phase 4 player, I'd deal with that quite well but I understand what you are saying. But having stupid ass execution requirements on top of match up is never a winning proposition when you have such poor teaching tools and a community incapable of developing one themselves. I say remove the points of failure which is indeed what sf5 seems to be doing with having a compact character list and less 1 frame links.

This is why I liked all the old gameplay modes in the GGXX games. All the GG players in my city were well-versed in 3v3 Team Versus, random-select and a variety of interesting Gold character matchups we discovered. However, this was the sort of stuff we'd fall into at the end of a very long session when regular play stopped moving us forward.

I'd definitely argue it was helpful, sure, but that's only because we played that much in the first place. In a series like GG, where the skill-ceiling on the characters is as high as it is, you can only afford to mess around with your non-competitive characters so much though before things stop feeling productive, IMO. (At least, after you already dived deep-enough into in one and haven't hit a dead end.)

Because the majority of players see that investing in a single character, and maybe a counter-pick, is enough to realistically navigate them through the game's match-ups, while very few have success with small-investments in a variety of characters, I just don't think the enthusiasm will ever be there for this sort of stuff in the series.

KOF's one of my other favourite series though, and I could see myself getting into bans and ratio tournaments. Well... maybe not bans. I'd survive, but would be salty af if I went into a KOFXIII tournament specifically perfecting Vice's Mayhem>5LP link and Elizabeth'd awkward DP>DP drive cancel, only then to have those characters banned out from under me. Give me a KOF2k2UM ratio tournament any day though, so my ratio-0 May Lee Jinju has a purpose in life!
Bans probably could only really have legs in KOF other fighting games would be asking for trouble.
 

DunpealD

Member
Scumbag owner, unsavory practices, IGT was a fucking mess, some winners from it still haven't gotten paid, other stuff I don't really wanna get into

There's reasons why a lot the Korean FGC have been avoiding them for a while now.

Well, a recent tweet from Romance definitely validates your point about cafeid...

Sounds pretty damning. Hopefully not everyone under the banner of Cafeid, like Madkof, are involved.
So is ArcadeStream now the new up and coming gathering point in Korea?
 

N4Us

Member
Sounds pretty damning. Hopefully not everyone under the banner of Cafeid, like Madkof, are involved.

MadKOF 'officially' left Cafeid immediately after EVO '14 though he may have cut off from them before that.

https://twitter.com/MAD_KoF13/status/585182659099361280

So is ArcadeStream now the new up and coming gathering point in Korea?

Yeah, ArcadeStream seems to be one of the more active places in that area right now, at least from what I've heard from people that have gone there.
 

DunpealD

Member
As a Phase 4 player, I'd deal with that quite well but I understand what you are saying. But having stupid ass execution requirements on top of match up is never a winning proposition when you have such poor teaching tools and a community incapable of developing one themselves. I say remove the points of failure which is indeed what sf5 seems to be doing with having a compact character list and less 1 frame links.
It's a matter of preference. Some people like it technical, some don't. As for tools we'll have to see how SFV is doing. I'm quite baffled myself why they never introduced a tutorial mode in the subsequent updates. Even new trials seemed to be a tough one for them.
Also what else should the community do? There is frametrapped, mobile apps with framedata and tutorial vids. There is just so much the community can do.
SFV going more into the opposite direction of USFIV bodes well for being different at least. So now we have to see what it brings to the table.


Bans probably could only really have legs in KOF other fighting games would be asking for trouble.
Bans make most sense when there is a team composition to be had. But I dunno. USFIV Edition Select might be interesting, since it shoots up the character count quite up.
Too bad the 3v3 team mode was terribly implemented. I never even got a chance to try it out.

MadKOF 'officially' left Cafeid immediately after EVO '14 though he may have cut off from them before that.

Yeah, ArcadeStream seems to be one of the more active places in that area right now, at least from what I've heard from people that have gone there.
The whole Cafeid ordeal sounds rather unfortunate. Hopefully the Korean FGC are able to find some new reliable spots. It'd be really nice if they could manage to do something like NLBC.
I'm stll missing the old days of Japans NSB. Bless Gama no abura for holding out so long.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
It's a matter of preference. Some people like it technical, some don't. As for tools we'll have to see how SFV is doing. I'm quite baffled myself why they never introduced a tutorial mode in the subsequent updates. Even new trials seemed to be a tough one for them.
Also what else should the community do? There is frametrapped, mobile apps with framedata and tutorial vids. There is just so much the community can do.
SFV going more into the opposite direction of USFIV bodes well for being different at least. So now we have to see what it brings to the table.



Bans make most sense when there is a team composition to be had. But I dunno. USFIV Edition Select might be interesting, since it shoots up the character count quite up.
Too bad the 3v3 team mode was terribly implemented. I never even got a chance to try it out.
Time will most certainly tell how SF5 turns out. But smaller base and a larger pool of players are good starts. I don't expect the community to do the teaching since most of them do not have the make up to be a good teacher. It will always be on the developers do be clear about their systems and using community feedback and results to see where they can put in things. I think a proper game style system could work for teaching certain things like putting some requirements to advance story mode, or putting some little rewards in fulfilling things in your fighter.
 

jbug617

Banned
@teamspooky: Finally have more details on this - I'll be streaming the East and West coast qualifiers for the King of Iron Fist Tournament 2015

tekken7usqualifiersposter.png

Another twitter announcement and this time it's from Markman. He posted a cropped poster image of the US qualifiers for the King Of Iron Fist 2015 tournament that features the dates of the events. October 3rd (Saturday) is the day that the West coast Qualifier in Round 1 Arcade in Puente Hills Mall will be going down and the East coast qualifier is set for October 18th (Sunday) at the Dave & Buster's in NY Times Square. Additionally, the qualifiers will be streamed according to this tweet. More details on the events should come in the near future so you can look forward to participating or watching the event live in the near future everyone.
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/ne...t-qualifiers-for-king-of-iron-fist-tourn.html
 
Does anybody have any strong rumors about when exactly in Dec will be the tekken championship? Markman?

I plan to be in japan in December and want to fit it into my plans.
 

Marz

Member
Do you guys actually want to see high level play? Bans would be horrible, even a lot of the top level guys can only play 2 characters at a high level.

Also the fact that some people just don't want to play more characters. I like playing Sagat and Adon and that's it in 4. If somebody Bans my characters i'm simply not going to enter it's not fun.
 

Sayad

Member
Maybe allow players to pick up a main during sign up that can't be banned. This would kill characters like Elena without hurting character loyalists.
 
It is impossible to talk about Virtua Fighter like this. Characters aren't really restricted and as a result everyone has an answer to everything, no one 'loses' a matchup. Yes, reads like this exist in every game, but musings on how X character has to uniquely handle Y's offense do not exist in this one. I'm curious why you feel that tier lists and matchups matter and exist for every game. I'm also curious what tier list you found and if you'd feel it would still be insightful if the character at the bottom regularly won events. imo VF tier lists are hilarious and should only be read as a List Of Characters.

Maybe a better solution, then, is a less-relative primer on how to approach a match with no understanding of your opponent. Not "Eileen v Kage", but instead a general "v Kage" discussion. What strings and moves are punishable? What's half circular, what's mid? What defensive options beat this attack?

These, of course, become obvious the more familiar we are with the game. But if you're looking for a means of "getting up to speed", this would be a lot more useful than "Eileen v Kage" which wouldn't be different from "Wolf v Kage" or "Goh v Kage".

Why is it impossible? Hard, probably. And I don't really mean exact quantifications, but even VF characters have damage output disparities and strengths and weaknesses - some have a great low game, Akira probably has some headaches against opponents who sidestep a lot because of his lack of full circulars, and so on. Maybe some characters land unusually strong punishes from some situations so maybe emphasize them less in your game, etc?

It's a bit like antiairing with Chun in SF3 and SF4, for example - it's not that she can't do it, per se, but it can be troublesome in a way that it isn't for a shoto. You don't need actual incapabilities to assess disadvantage - difficulty and unwieldiness are all too real.

I actually like it when fighting games aren't matchup dependent.

Matchup dependant is one of those terms that is really too high level to mean anything concrete.

It can mean that the game's matchups play out very differently, like say SF and GG do.

It can mean GG/SF4 style that the matchups may not necessarily be horribly lopsided, but require a lot of specific knowledge to play competently.

It can mean that the game's matchups have a tendency to be horribly lopsided like in, say, ST where things can devolve into a roulette of horribly severe counterpicks to horribly severe counterpicks.

It's the same issue as talking about SF4's defensiveness - the game is defensive only in a certain sense, some other games have stronger defenses in other aspects of the game, but talking about some abstract "defensiveness" just means too much to the point it ends up meaning nothing and merely obscures actual discussion.

I dunno- feel like too many universal defensive options are kind of a balance cop-out sometimes.

Pretty much all of the best fighting games I've played have relatively strong universal defenses - they allow the designers to make strong characters relatively freely, and playing with strong characters is more fun than playing with watered-down gimps.

So yes, in a sense you're correct: They create a much higher tolerance for imbalance, but that tolerance in return means more meaningful matches even between mismatched characters and more freedom for interesting designs with a high power level, which I appreciate.

The asymmetry of fighting games is interesting. Why have different characters if their (defensive?) options are fundamentally the same?

GG has a lot of universal defenses and the characters are very different.

ST has next to none and the characters are very different.

KOF has a lot of standardization on both attack and defense and the characters are more similar but the overall game is lighter to learn.

There's a gradation, here. I do think the system-first games feel markedly different from matchup-oriented games and I enjoy both a lot.

They're not outright bans, but for various KOF games ratio tournaments have been a thing for a while.

"Ban Coffeeling's teams" tournaments ;_;

Give me a KOF2k2UM ratio tournament any day though, so my ratio-0 May Lee Jinju has a purpose in life!

2D xx Henshin is +4 on block, that is a purpose! :p
 

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Why is it impossible? Hard, probably. And I don't really mean exact quantifications, but even VF characters have damage output disparities and strengths and weaknesses - some have a great low game, Akira probably has some headaches against opponents who sidestep a lot because of his lack of full circulars, and so on. Maybe some characters land unusually strong punishes from some situations so maybe emphasize them less in your game, etc?

It's a bit like antiairing with Chun in SF3 and SF4, for example - it's not that she can't do it, per se, but it can be troublesome in a way that it isn't for a shoto. You don't need actual incapabilities to assess disadvantage - difficulty and unwieldiness are all too real
is this akira example a matchup problem, though? if you play akira you need to be ready to use tools other than circulars to beat sidesteps, such as throws and delay attacks. would it make any sense to have in every matchup discussion (akira v jeffry, akira v sarah, and so on) a section that says "here's what you do against opponents who sidestep" when that section will be identical in each case?

yes there are weight classes and it's worthwhile to know what combos to use against what character, but I don't feel that's insightful in the same manner as something like my gouken v hugo example - it doesn't tell you how to play the match. and in vf, you shouldn't play any match with an agenda or a flowchart, it just doesn't make sense to. it's a conversation, not an exam.
 
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