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Fighting Game Headquarters |3| [Cinematic Title Expansion Coming Soon]

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Dahbomb

Member
LMAO @ adding breakers to a Marvel game.

Son please.

If you don't want TODs then you need more aggressive scaling so combos are shorter and start scaling in damage faster. Use a more MVC2 approach where it's shorter combos (minus the pseudo infinites) and more reset focused though a single reset should kill a character otherwise that creates an imbalance in the game as it is a 3 v 3 game.


People don't like Marvel because of the long combos/TODs, they like it in spite of it. As long as you create a combo system that allows for individual expression and skill while not have it affect game pacing... no one is going to complain about it.
 
Still begs the question though...do people prefer to just have the whole cast allowed to have unbalanced powerful stuff with no breaker system on deck to reign it in and balance be damned because its fun to make everything feel powerful or do they like it better when you spend more time balancing such tools, toning it down some and adding other systems like breakers to keep things from getting as harsh as Marvel's level of TOD?

I'm honestly not even certain there is a way to answer this question honestly. One, its hard to determine if its preferrable to let it rock to players or if its just because its the Marvel license they enjoy that style of play because its fitting. Two, it comes down to player preferences which vary.

Its just something I find hard to nail down in regards to this game. I know Skullgirls lets it rock but put in an infinite protection and unblockable protection system.
Skullgirls' results are the ideal. Tons of variation available with an infinite protection system, and everything is reset-based.
 
Being honest, the constant TOD is what really turns me off from Marvel 3. Just watching the recent Texas Showdown made me a bit cold toward the game. Though to be fair every game has its problems.

What is wrong with touch of death? This isn't a 1v1 fighter where one character can kill you in 1 hit & no one else can. This is a game where everyone fucks you up & kills you in 1 touch. Would you rather play a game like 3S against Chun where she kills you by hiting you a million times but you have no opportunity to ever hit her back cause she's so much better? So that even when you make a godlike read it doesn't mean shit because you'll need 20 of those a round compared to her low risk high reward play style?
 

Nuu

Banned
What is wrong with touch of death? This isn't a 1v1 fighter where one character can kill you in 1 hit & no one else can. This is a game where everyone fucks you up & kills you in 1 touch. Would you rather play a game like 3S against Chun where she kills you by hiting you a million times but you have no opportunity to ever hit her back cause she's so much better? So that even when you make a godlike read it doesn't mean shit because you'll need 20 of those a round compared to her low risk high reward play style?

I dislike touch of death because it turns games into a "who his first with a combo test". I feel that there should be more to a game than just merely who gets the first attack. Not to say that Marvel 3's TOD's are that extreme or frequent, just describing why I do not like TOD.

Also the Third Strike comparison is a bit sloppy. Chun Li isn't that head and shoulders above everyone else, and it isn't like there are only two extremes to pick.
 
I dislike touch of death because it turns games into glorified Divekick's with combo tests. Though not to knock on Divekick as it's clearly a game designed around touch of death.

Also Chun Li isn't that head and shoulders above everyone else, and it isn't like there are only two extremes to pick.

Yes she is. There is zero debate that Chun is the best character in 3S & has advantage in every single match up.

In UMVC3 there is still debate even now who the best character & teams in the game are.

Your idea of what TOD does to a game too is super scrubby. Neutral has way more importance & emphises in games with ToD. You work an avoiding TOD situations. That is part of the game too a GIGANTIC part of the game.
 

Nuu

Banned
Yes she is. There is zero debate that Chun is the best character in 3S & has advantage in every single match up.
Not to the degree you described. You acted as if Chun Li is 9-1 with everyone when that just is not the case.

In UMVC3 there is still debate even now who the best character & teams in the game are.

Yes because Marvel 3 is the pinnacle of character balance.

What does this exactly have to do about choosing between your two hypothetical extremes again?

Your idea of what TOD does to a game too is super scrubby. Neutral has way more importance & emphises in games with ToD. You work an avoiding TOD situations. That is part of the game too a GIGANTIC part of the game.

Just because it's a "gigantic" part of the game doesn't make it not dumb to some people.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
I don't think anyone's ever going to argue that Marvel 3 is better off for having infinites but at least we're five years in and most people still don't hit them all that consistently, so there's still an occasional element of surprise.

Another point, I see no reason why making a Marvel Vs. game should be a "licensing nightmare". Marvel owns all those characters. No, I don't buy the idea that they can't have X-Men in anything anymore. Film rights aren't the same as game rights. And either way Marvel definitely has enough characters they could put into a game to field a decent cast. Then just combine it with singly owned characters from a property like Capcom, DC, whatever. It shouldn't be difficult to do. It just has to be worth the money invested.
 

Nightii

Banned
It's a licensing nightmare for Capcom, because Marvel/Disney clearly gives no fucks about the games and has nothing worthwhile to gain from them.

Also, even if they were to do it, it would be difficult because Marvel/Disney would be dictating who gets to be on the game and who doesn't, so even if they could put X-Men in there it doesn't mean they would want to.
 

Sayad

Member
What is wrong with touch of death? This isn't a 1v1 fighter where one character can kill you in 1 hit & no one else can. This is a game where everyone fucks you up & kills you in 1 touch. Would you rather play a game like 3S against Chun where she kills you by hiting you a million times but you have no opportunity to ever hit her back cause she's so much better? So that even when you make a godlike read it doesn't mean shit because you'll need 20 of those a round compared to her low risk high reward play style?
You mean like morridoom?! Also, doesn't TOD in MVC3 mean killing your whole team after one confirm, not just a character?
 
You mean like morridoom?! Also, doesn't TOD in MVC3 mean killing your whole team after one confirm, not just a character?

That's what I still don't understand myself with the TOD argument. It's one character unless you make a stupid decision to THC and have everyone get wrecked.
 

Sayad

Member
That's what I still don't understand myself with the TOD argument. It's one character unless you make a stupid decision to THC and have everyone get wrecked.
Nah, the whole team as in, after one confirm, they end up killing the character and the next two characters on their entrance without getting a chance to play neutral again.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I don't mind the touch of death because it can keep the game to a certain pace , the real issue is when the combo is too long that it just becomes a chore.
 
Nah, the whole team as in, after one confirm, they end up killing the character and the next two characters on their entrance without getting a chance to play neutral again.

I know what you mean. Referring to it as TOD doesn't make sense to me. I guess some look at it as a dead character while I look at it as dead as a whole.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
I know what you mean. Referring to it as TOD doesn't make sense to me. I guess some look at it as a dead character while I look at it as dead as a whole.

Sometimes the mix up after every death is so bad it might as well be. Like Sayad says while you don't get to kill right away the chance that you can capture the next character right away is really high if you set it up right before they enter the stage.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I was always baffled by the fact that it never got huge pot bonuses like the other games did.
The whole trend of massive pot bonuses by companies kinda started after the game started waning. Besides who was going to provide pot bonuses for the game, Capcom and Disney? Please, Capcom didn't even put the game into the CPT yet tried it with SFXT one time.


Back to TODs, I think there is some incorrect stigma to it when related to Marvel (or 3 v 3 games). In some cases, TODs are fine like when you are spending XF or 3-4 meter into a combo. That's a lot of resources on one character that can hurt you in the long run. It's similar to KOF13 where you could dump a ton of resources if you wanted to in order to kill a character.

The subject of TOD becomes sketchy when stuff like this is possible:

*TOD off of a stray jab anti air. Game is supposed to have heavier scaling starting from lights but it's not strong enough to deter big damage off of safe/fast moves. It's not just lights but someone can throw a projectile across the screen and combo off of it into and TOD like Zero.

*TOD off of a grab. Grabs are supposed to be heavily scaled and for the most part many characters do not kill off of a throw but some do and they represent some of the strongest characters in the game. In addition this is an issue when throws can be OS'd with powerful heavy moves and are instant. The game was obviously designed to have TODs off of clean heavy hits but it clearly was not designed around Zero killing you off of a throw using a single meter.

*Long combos that build 2 meter and can finish with a lvl3. Bigger issue than high damage combo is long ended combos that build a ton of meter and then dump that meter at the end of a combo. This is something that MVC2 does a bit better when pseudo infinites aren't involved. It also messes up the meter economy in the game when Zero can spam Sogenmu to dominate neutral and still build enough meter to kill you with then spend another meter on sogenmu to lock down the incoming character.



And on the talk of character balance, game is more balanced than people give it credit for and the character variety is enough where you see various playstyles, teams and strategies. You can look at all the top 8 EVOs and see the trends, more characters are used than some games have total rosters.

However, Zero is clearly the best in the game and most people agree on it. He represents much of what is wrong with the game. He skewers the resource management in the game, the scaling system, the risky/reward in neutral of using projectiles and has the most powerful incoming mix up game that isn't a straight up unblockables which leads to the classic Zero play.

Zero is the type of character that a player who isn't quite at the top of the top can get great results with because you can just have that "Zero" set where you rollover the opponent. That rollover quality is strongest with Zero, only rivaled by Firebrand. That's why you have some EVO top 8s with a random Zero player.

Thankfully the game has enough strong characters to deal with Zero in the neutral and can TOD him too. He still abides by similar rules. He may not be 3S Chun tier but he's definitely the best.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The team that I feel embodies what is right with Marvel 3 and what it feels like Capcom designed to play like is Dual Kevin's team of Deadpool/Dante/Hawkeye. The most "broken" thing about that team is the Dante TAC infinite which the team doesn't rely and Dual Kevin doesn't go for it too much. The damage on that team is what I think Capcom designed it to be... characters get low damage off of throws unless they start dumping meter/XF and off of clean hit they can put the hurt but they need extra help to kill. The characters work well together with enough tools among them to deal with various strategies and compositions (kinda loses to heavy aggression like a Wolverine team but that style of play has been fading from the game for a while). The team can play both rushdown and zoning, it has its own gimmicks/tech stuff that a player can maximize. You actually need to learn resets to play the team also the mix ups in the team are pretty standard 50/50s with very few layers to them. The anchor is pretty weak with no XF and kinda needs it to make that comeback and even then it's not a rollover.

The team feels balanced and fair yet strong enough to compete. And it's why people get so entertained watching it. All of those characters are around mid to high tier with Dante and Hawkeye being quite common characters with Deadpool being the only real uncommon character so it's not just a matter of "woah look at these weird and unconventional characters".

You can watch this team in action here for those who aren't familiar with it:

https://youtu.be/jKkBrJr86Ls

https://youtu.be/H5ueFJ2Di_0


Marvel was there for Capcom Cup 2014 alongside AE 2012, and Street Fighter X Tekken.

They were all 8 man invitational.
Yeah an 8 mana invitational where the players were voted in... come on now. There wasn't a circuit or qualifiers for it, they just threw that in.
 
I hate TOD for two reasons.

1. I hate long combos in FGs. In my adult years; more than ever.

- They're a chore to practice. Combos are my absolute least favorite thing to practice when getting into a new game or new character. This is exacerbated in this new era of not having a consolidated source of information, so there's way more trial and error involved in formulating effective bread and butters. It's time consuming, rote memorization that doesn't allow me to get to the meat of the game, quickly.

2. I don't want high stakes neutral - I want emphasized neutral, in terms of relatively extended durations.

- The vying for position and spacing element of FGs is what makes them stimulating for me, outside mixup scenarios. This is why I'm partial to FGs with powerful movement options (particularly movement options that have a high-ceiling capable of separating players of similar skill levels). But TOD combos neuter that aspect of the game by keeping one player incapacitated for extended periods of time.

Executing a long, difficult combo is often satisfying, but I prefer them to not be a core focus of the game and be fringe cases at best.
 

Shouta

Member
Daigo is doing some kind of partnership with Red Bull. It's not like Bonchan though. It's more like cooperating with them and things?
 
Eita was asking Daigo and Fuudo for advice on how to attract a sponsor. That will probably be a very difficult task. Most teams are picking up American players because they play on the biggest stage almost weekly. Most of the top Asians got picked up years ago but none have been getting sponsored nowadays. Despite Infil's dominance, he only just got a sponsor not too long ago. Tokido and Mago lost their sponsorship and neither have gotten picked up by another team yet.

So Daigo is still technically MCZ Daigo. It's just that he has a partnership with Red Bull to do other stuff? That's how I understood it.
 
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