Thank you very much will look into it.
Netcode is unimaginably bad
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Fighting Game Headquarters |4| Cheers Love, the Anime's Here!
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Thank you very much will look into it.
Netcode is unimaginably bad
shaowebb
Member
Question.
If a game came out that played street fighter style (ie no airdashes, no long combos, ground and neutral focused) what sorts of things would it need to really gather attention?
SF is much lighter on system mechanics than many fighters and its combos are so short. Is it the game or the name? Is it maybe the fighting style vs other fighting style martial arts theme? You can see the mind games goin on out there, but could another SF style title take off? Was Rising Thunder on its way to this before it ended? What sort of tone is needed to project this SF vibe in a successful manner?
Sorry, its late and I'm trying to chase a thought that keeps dancing around in my head but I cant nail it down. SFIV was around forever and SFV is putting up numbers. I know SFV has some bad shit goin down with it and many talk about it being capcom money that draws folks but I see genuine love for the game and its predecessor and its enough to feel that its not something folks will just let go away easily. I'm just trying to catch on to what it is that holds folks to the gameplay of this series so heavily when there are so many other things out there.
If a game came out that played street fighter style (ie no airdashes, no long combos, ground and neutral focused) what sorts of things would it need to really gather attention?
SF is much lighter on system mechanics than many fighters and its combos are so short. Is it the game or the name? Is it maybe the fighting style vs other fighting style martial arts theme? You can see the mind games goin on out there, but could another SF style title take off? Was Rising Thunder on its way to this before it ended? What sort of tone is needed to project this SF vibe in a successful manner?
Sorry, its late and I'm trying to chase a thought that keeps dancing around in my head but I cant nail it down. SFIV was around forever and SFV is putting up numbers. I know SFV has some bad shit goin down with it and many talk about it being capcom money that draws folks but I see genuine love for the game and its predecessor and its enough to feel that its not something folks will just let go away easily. I'm just trying to catch on to what it is that holds folks to the gameplay of this series so heavily when there are so many other things out there.
CommandThrower
Member
I think art style and characters are really what is needed to gather attention first and foremost. Mechanics and gameplay come afterwards. SF has generally always had great gameplay, but I think it's the characters and art style of SF that has given it so much staying power over the years. People just like playing and doing cool stuff with neat looking characters, I know I do. While I've grown to love the mechanical aspect of fighting games, I got into fighting games because of the cool characters in all the fighting games.
Claiming that nostalgia and love for the characters and aesthetics don't play a big part for me, but for me the relative simplicity of Street Fighter itself is the biggest appeal.
Simple commands, simple chains, just going out there and trying to outplay the other player, wether it ends up being through smart predictions, sheer instinct, or because you set up the situation to make it happen. Standing there as Ryu and stopping a jump in on it's tracks with Roundhouse, it just... It feels like a gun draw at sunset to me, repeated several times through the match.
I love other fighters a lot, but the way I feel when playing Street Fighter, well I have yet to feel that way with other fighting games. It might be sacrilegous to many, but Street Fighter being "slower" and simpler is the big draw for me.
Simple commands, simple chains, just going out there and trying to outplay the other player, wether it ends up being through smart predictions, sheer instinct, or because you set up the situation to make it happen. Standing there as Ryu and stopping a jump in on it's tracks with Roundhouse, it just... It feels like a gun draw at sunset to me, repeated several times through the match.
I love other fighters a lot, but the way I feel when playing Street Fighter, well I have yet to feel that way with other fighting games. It might be sacrilegous to many, but Street Fighter being "slower" and simpler is the big draw for me.
If anything, with SF being the progenitor, those who had strayed from the path would be heathens. But a variety is good too!
Well originally SF2 was a ground breaking game. Cutting edge visuals, character designs, game play mechanics... it was unlike anything seen before at that level of quality and polish.
Just because SF is now considered as a slow, footsie based title doesn't mean that's why many people enjoyed SF back in the day... it was just revolutionary at the time. Compared to SF2 back in the day SFV just doesn't compare... it doesn't push the envelope like SF2 did. It's a very safe iteration of the series. There have been other SF clones before but they didn't have the brand recognition of SF so they had to provide their own "gimmick" to be relevant. Honestly SNK provided a lot of good SF alternatives back in the day but few caught on at the same level as SF and even now they fall far behind SF.
MK had its own gimmicks and before long the 3D genre started. 3D fighters was where the slower game play was at while the 2D genre just started to get crazier and zanier (birth of VS and anime games).
Quite frankly for a game like SF to succeed it has to bring way more than just simplistic game play to the table. There aren't a ton of faults in the game play of SFV, in fact for me it's a very good fighting game especially for newer players... the issue with SFV is EVERYTHING else. Game just isn't cutting edge anymore and uses features that are antiquated by now.
Just because SF is now considered as a slow, footsie based title doesn't mean that's why many people enjoyed SF back in the day... it was just revolutionary at the time. Compared to SF2 back in the day SFV just doesn't compare... it doesn't push the envelope like SF2 did. It's a very safe iteration of the series. There have been other SF clones before but they didn't have the brand recognition of SF so they had to provide their own "gimmick" to be relevant. Honestly SNK provided a lot of good SF alternatives back in the day but few caught on at the same level as SF and even now they fall far behind SF.
MK had its own gimmicks and before long the 3D genre started. 3D fighters was where the slower game play was at while the 2D genre just started to get crazier and zanier (birth of VS and anime games).
Quite frankly for a game like SF to succeed it has to bring way more than just simplistic game play to the table. There aren't a ton of faults in the game play of SFV, in fact for me it's a very good fighting game especially for newer players... the issue with SFV is EVERYTHING else. Game just isn't cutting edge anymore and uses features that are antiquated by now.
Gunslinger
Member
Yo what did SFV peak at today view wise.
I think around 33k. It may have gone a fair bit higher, but I had to eat dinner around prime time. Though from what I heard, it beat the other games by a decent degree in terms of views.
Gunslinger
Member
nice nice. Lets see if it can break 100k or almost 100k like USFIV last year. I think USFIV capped around 80k last year at CEO.
New contender for best music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLcwZ8krEhw
Edit: Linked wrong video earlier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLcwZ8krEhw
Edit: Linked wrong video earlier
shaowebb
Member
Thanks for all the input on SF. It really was groundbreaking when SF2 hit. I played championship edition because it was all I had till I'd beaten it so many times it was insane. Every star difficulty, every character...just kept playing.
But yeah, I can see that to stand out folks in 2d had to have new gimmicks until it just got hard to stand out easily. Now 3d fighters are more neutral and footsie than most 2d stuff because of how much stuff folks try to throw into those titles to stand out and look exciting.
I like the gameplay of all of em really. Honestly out of all the newer franchises Koihime Enbu seems to find the best medium at times between slower footsie play with lower combos and moments of high combo craziness. Most just go all out speed and combos where as it require you to land tricky to hit crumple states to gain access to the necessary tools needed to do anything lengthy (launchers, bounces, etc).
I get the feeling that if someone had loud enough martial arts based characters to showcase they could draw that SF sorta crowd to their game. Something about the whole mixed martial arts masters coming together for a tournament featuring all the styles that exist in fighting is very very appealing and timeless. I feel that if any newcomers came looking for this style of play though they'd come closer to a classic KOF than a SF though.
So long as we get deep neutral in fighters I'll be happy. Im a footsie guy and the viewer numbers seem to follow footsie heavy neutral games longer than games that just have a go ham nature to them.
Strangely enough Koihime Enbu is probably about as good as it gets OST wise
They contracted SSH who did Nihon Falcom stuff and a TON of contract stuff for decades in the industry. Guy is pretty much a soundtrack god. What else can you expect from an Y's veteran though?
But yeah, I can see that to stand out folks in 2d had to have new gimmicks until it just got hard to stand out easily. Now 3d fighters are more neutral and footsie than most 2d stuff because of how much stuff folks try to throw into those titles to stand out and look exciting.
I like the gameplay of all of em really. Honestly out of all the newer franchises Koihime Enbu seems to find the best medium at times between slower footsie play with lower combos and moments of high combo craziness. Most just go all out speed and combos where as it require you to land tricky to hit crumple states to gain access to the necessary tools needed to do anything lengthy (launchers, bounces, etc).
I get the feeling that if someone had loud enough martial arts based characters to showcase they could draw that SF sorta crowd to their game. Something about the whole mixed martial arts masters coming together for a tournament featuring all the styles that exist in fighting is very very appealing and timeless. I feel that if any newcomers came looking for this style of play though they'd come closer to a classic KOF than a SF though.
So long as we get deep neutral in fighters I'll be happy. Im a footsie guy and the viewer numbers seem to follow footsie heavy neutral games longer than games that just have a go ham nature to them.
Strangely enough Koihime Enbu is probably about as good as it gets OST wise
They contracted SSH who did Nihon Falcom stuff and a TON of contract stuff for decades in the industry. Guy is pretty much a soundtrack god. What else can you expect from an Y's veteran though?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I always enjoyed the ssh version of holy orders
https://youtu.be/GZmVVv75Tno
https://youtu.be/GZmVVv75Tno
the things that make SF complex and interesting to me are not actual mechanics (although there are entries that have had very complex mechanics) but the very minute spacing and the kind of conversation it creates between players. the mind games are very cool and imo somewhat unique in comparison to the faster paced 2d games.
sixteen-bit
Member
Darn, that's a shame.
Thomasorus
Member
Shao I think you should differentiate what's working in the FGC and outside of it. Today SF5 isn't working outside of the FGC and SF fans. Despite stream numbers and EVO numbers, SF5 isn't a success. It has its followers because the gameplay is right, but it's also nostalgia, crowd following. And it's one of the most well done series if you like nineties aesthetics/tone/charisma. And one of the last representatives of this with a high budget and promotion.
SF5 was trying hard to find a new audience and appeal to a lot of people like it did in the nineties (look how Ono was serious about appealing to younger players) but I don't think it's working at all because SF taste isn't mainstream anymore. That's the reason MKX is so different than MK9, because the NRS team is capable of adapting itself to what's hot when the game comes out (here the gritty/dark superhero vibe people enjoy). SF isn't and when it tried in the nineties with SF3 it failed (for various reasons outside of it but well it played a part into it). Tekken 4 tried too before backpedaling.
So to answer your question while thinking to a broader audience than the FGC, I think a new game/IP needs to do what SF2 did at this time: being a new standard with people expectations. It needs to be fun, accessible, not outdated both technically and in aesthetics/tone. And you need to give to people what they like right now, not what they liked 25 years ago.
One of the reasons Overwatch or LoL are games appealing to everyone is because they give characters people want to play inspired by universal archetypes with current aesthetics or very recent tropes/expectations. They don't care if you have a cowboy, a steampunk robot, a knight, a ninja and an alien in the same game because you have your favorite archetype and all of them are very well done. They are mixing universes and don't care and it works because everyone will find something they like.
The best example I can come with is how Overwatch and SF5 handled their female characters. In Overwatch all of them have different skin colors, origins and even bodies. Meanwhile in SF (and even more in SF5) all female chars are 25 years old beautiful top models. All of them are sexualized (why do you think Ibuki is wearing an uniform for?), all of them are white or near white even when they are chinese, japanese, brasilian. I'll admit they tried something with the male characters in SF5. Rashid, fat Birdie, Necali or even Ken's redesign. But overall, it still feels like it's an undercover game from the nineties.
So if you do a new IP with a SF gameplay, just do the SF gameplay, and forget the rest. Just aim for the same high standard as the series but don't do the same with martial arts references that people younger than 25 never heard of.
/rant
Not sure what you mean by this, only thing that really changed from MK9 to MKX is the gameplay/mechanics, and that's has nothing to do with how successful the game is! MKX's mainstream success came from its excellent value for casuals, and maybe art direction and gore, which are pretty much inline with what they did with MK9!
BumblebeeCody
Member
35K
shaowebb
Member
After replaying some more Injustice I really hope Shazam comes back with a few buffs. He was really close to becoming something IMO. He had one heckuva long range starter with his B23 elbow into shoulder string and it lead to 40%+ given you could follow it up with MB low grab into B3 wallbounce dealers choice. Plus he had that string where he'd punch once then summon the lightning above you for a stun, and good jump ins as well. He just had some mad recovery on some stuff and some stank start up on others.
A few string replacements or a quality trait swap and this guy could be something. Especially given that now you can tech out of combos and his tend to involve comboing into command grabs for guaranteed damage.
A few string replacements or a quality trait swap and this guy could be something. Especially given that now you can tech out of combos and his tend to involve comboing into command grabs for guaranteed damage.
Thomasorus
Member
No, MKX art direction has nothing to do with MK9. MK9 went the SF4 road on the retro-trip who bears his heritage. So they went full speed on this road: all the old characters, ninjas suits, female dressed as strippers, cheap aesthetics. The hero is Bruce Lee/Liu Kang with Sonya and Johnny Cage/Van Dame joining. There are many things I could detail like the look of the character select screen, the fonts, the life bars... But the goal was to appeal to people that played MK in the nineties.
In MKX they went for a more realistic tone, inspired by dark comics and more recent references. Female characters finally are dressed with clothes defining them as full fledged characters (Kitana and Mileena redesigns are great and helps you identify how they are different despite being sisters). It's also a game with different body types, different monsters/races that are new to the MK universe. They also redesigned everything from the character select screen to the lifebars, the menus, to give them a more mature and classy look.
Why? Because they understood quickly they could not sell the same thing twice. They needed a fresh take on MK so they did it. There's a new team of younger characters that references new tropes, new attitudes and is very diverse: a white woman, a black woman, two asians guys. They aged some of their most famous characters like Liu Kang and Kung Lao and that was a good decision because these references are OLD. If you were born in 2000 you're sixteen today. And the most famous martial art movies that came out since you are born is probably Crouching Tiger, Hero and... Kill Bill ? Movies like IP Man, The Raid or Ong Bak aren't that famous.
You probably never saw a Bruce Lee movie if nobody is a fan in the family. Jackie Chan is the old asian guy in Rush Hour. Van Damme is the guy in the World of Warcraft ad. What's the point to keep main characters inspired by them if you want to sell a game to teenagers and young adults? You have to create a new aesthetic, new younger characters with backgrounds and stories that young people of today can relate to. You can keep old chars for the old fans but that's not the selling point. Remember that Johnny, Cassie or Jax were among the last chars to be presented.
That's what Tekken 3 did, putting chars like Baek and Kazuya to the trash to replace them with Hwoarang and Jin. They changed the aesthetics too, did a packed game and it sold 8 millions. MKX did the same thing last year and is probably at 6 millions copies sold today.
Aesthetics, design is the first thing you notice and it starts with the art on the box. Now compare these and you'll understand that those two games, despite being the same franchise, aren't aimed to the same exact public.
Edit : Something that NRS had and that Capcom hasn't is also a duo of characters (Scorpion and Sub) that are both the icons of the series but not the heroes of the series. They'll always be here and they are you attach point. But neither of them is the hero so their aesthetics or story or gameplay will not hold back the series like Ryu is doing in SF.
It means that NRS can create a new MK with new heroes anytime, Scorpion and Sub will always be here. Capcom is stuck with a karate guy in a pyjama living like a hobo with anger problems. They should put Ryu and Chun/Ken as their icons too and create new characters for Street Fighter to replace them as heroes. This way you can attract a new public while still pleasing old fans.
Also NRS was smart with their character unveils: they showed scorpion and sub first, then Cassie, then three new monster characters (Dvora, Kotal, Ferra Tor) so people knew that: 1. Scop/Sub are here 2. We'll see fresh takes on favorites chars 3. Many new chars to discover, following the game is gonna be interesting. Meanwhile at Capcom : Ryu, Chun, a not so fresh take on Nash (except for gameplay), Bison, Cammy... Too few surprises.
call_kotaku
Member
yeah I feel like MK9 had a clear lineage from the (garbage) 3D MK games, but MKX felt like a modern AAA game take on the same subject matter.
MKX felt more like a reboot than MK9 did in that regard
MKX felt more like a reboot than MK9 did in that regard
SixMachine
Member
I hated how the story mode of MKX devolved into the Kombat Kids. Their personalities during the matches are cocky and brutal (like Cassie's fatalities), but they came off as goody too shoes and basically there were no stakes and losses 90% of the time. Design wise I only really liked Takeda because using the laser swords and whips were pretty cool, even though the other new characters were better (though I don't know the situation post MKXL).
Capcom already uploaded everything to youtube
.la1n
Member
I don't think comparing that market to the one we are in now makes sense.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
Shazam was good. He just doesn't have good/safe enough footsies to be past low mid tier. It's like, mixing up jump in, torpedo, and dash up b2 vs command grab is pretty good high risk/reward but a lot of characters don't have to take that kind of risk for that reward and they can often keep an opponent out better as well.
Thomasorus
Member
This. SF3 failure is more related to the time it came out than the content of the game. Or nobody would be playing 3.3 today.
That's totally fair, and I think that the point being made of MK switching up during 10 to a completely different esthetic and tone helped. Although I don't think the point to tekken 3 is that comparable tekken 1 and 2 were good games, and they immediately put kazuya back in the next game so less cleansing the palette and more a weird creative decision that worked out that they still kind of went back on.
That said, I think that creating more new characters may benefit street fighter in the future.
all I am saying is, they did try it. They did actually do that.
No one is still playing sf3. Sf3 was never that popular.
I don't consider the fgc much of anyone, by the way.
Thomasorus
Member
You'll often find a 3.3 setup or side tournament in various tournaments and the Fightcade channel is one of the most actives. You can't say the same about Fatal Fury for example. That's what I meant, they somehow made it with this game.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
One day we're gonna stop putting that flop game Street Fighter 3 on a pedestal
one day
one day
But like 9 people are still playing it, it's amazing
Rice-Eater
Member
Justin out, not a good look for him after the dominance he's had in the US the past few months.
EDIT: Damn it I thought I was in the tournament thread. Oh well, still on topic I suppose.
EDIT: Damn it I thought I was in the tournament thread. Oh well, still on topic I suppose.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Thomasorus dropping that knowledge for future fighting games.
BumblebeeCody
Member
I personally didn't like MKX because of those changes. MK9 was a much more fun game to play too.
That's the Kurt Russell Horror western? I still have to see it
yeah it's super good but i feel like my life is different after seeing this thing towards the end
like my life is worse
Injustice 2 looks a lot more colorful though
much more like a DC comic
considering tekken is problably going to do what manlike tekken ussually do , very well. And as already made insane numbers in arcade money bucks arksys continues to exist and get money. And smash bros outsells everyone, you will be fine. MK's and Injustice's aesthetics are uniquely their own
Professor Beef
Banned
You know...the reasons. The reasons, man.
In aesthetics.
I'm aware that once the characters start talking and interacting the true nature of MK comes through, it's why I enjoy Story Mode.
Karsticles
Member
It's weird to call MKX gritty and dark, because the game is just what the MK series has always been.
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