sixteen-bit
Member
This Switch Neon Joy-Con fanart tho
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Fighting Game Headquarters |4| Cheers Love, the Anime's Here!
- Thread starter notworksafe
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For it to never come out and we delete sf4 from peoples minds
I expect see Violent Ken, Shadow Lady, Suntanned Sakura, Shin Dan, and Zombie Gouken. I don't know if I'd want anything from SF4 because if there going to build on their past work there's games with better foundations than SF4 (Alpha and 3, basically).
Switch Neon Joy-Con is more Ram and Rem instead of Gill.
Also, there's word going around that the console patch for ExZard Rev 2 got changed from "Spring 2017" to simply just "2017". My guess is they probably want a long enough testing period and then release the update immediately after EVO Grand Finals ends.
Also, there's word going around that the console patch for ExZard Rev 2 got changed from "Spring 2017" to simply just "2017". My guess is they probably want a long enough testing period and then release the update immediately after EVO Grand Finals ends.
This would be disappointing, I want Rev 2 to be the EVO version.
Problem is, if rev 2 comes out in the arcade but not on console, less Japanese players will travel for the game and most top players at EVO will be playing an outdated version they have already dropped few months ago! That has the opposite results of wanting the game to settle in.
That and I really don't want to wait that much before getting Rev 2. ;p
Kinda like what happened with Persona Arena ultimax.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
put this in the MvC:I thread, throwing it in here as well since its interesting stuff:
good arguments for not having a third team member on reddit. Good discussion in general.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MvC3/comments/5o1wva/the_third_team_member_in_umvc3_felt_totally/
good arguments for not having a third team member on reddit. Good discussion in general.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MvC3/comments/5o1wva/the_third_team_member_in_umvc3_felt_totally/
Agreed when you consider how many people dont want to play Doom but ended up having to because he was best support character by far.
Yeah, that's essentially what I didn't like about the 3 team construct, along with the fact that Assists were so powerful in general. There needed to be a longer cool down on them or something. Assists are just too spammable in MvC3 IMO.
Infinite looks like it could be more akin to a 2v2 Guilty, without all the needless complexity. I've always been more partial to MvC1/Xmen vs SF, so It's like it's being made just for me.
Infinite looks like it could be more akin to a 2v2 Guilty, without all the needless complexity. I've always been more partial to MvC1/Xmen vs SF, so It's like it's being made just for me.
sixteen-bit
Member
I want to see the videos where those original clips are from
Those discussions are more based on the balance of Marvel 3 rather than the ideal of what a 3v3 should be striving for. The game got only one balance patch so trying to use that as faults of a 3v3 system is just not right. Hell they could have used Marvel 2 as a better example... no low tier character is going to get in on Cable with CapCom and Drones because in that game the low tier characters were far more helpless. And assist characters were even more funneled into an assist only role in that game.
The main issue with MVC2/MVC3 aside from general balance has been that certain characters were designed to be Point characters while others were designed to be Support or Anchor characters. IMO this is the incorrect way to do things and this results in poor balance and far stricter team compositions. People want to run the 3 characters they like to play, not 2 characters they like and a support character. You can't run Wolverine/Spider Man/Deadpool because those 3 characters have lousy assists... has absolutely nothing to do with 3v3 system and more with how those characters are designed. If Deadpool had one change in the game which was that he could use his Low Gunshots as an assist then it would change a lot in the game when it comes to team construction because suddenly you can use Wolverine and Deadpool on the same team and not look like an idiot for doing it.
And the VS series has always had a long standing imbalance between air dash characters and ground based characters, whether it's 2v2 or 3v3. Marvel 3 bridges the gap more but it's still in favor of characters with high mobility. She Hulk loses to Morrigan and Zero even in 1v1, pretty badly in fact. She is just a mediocre character in general. That was a poor example to make in that discussion. A good example of a lower tier character getting a lot better with assist is something like Hulk. Hulk has defied numerous bad match ups due to assists which exemplifies the strength if the 3v3 system. Or the infamous Haggar Magneto match up yet Haggar manages to grip Magneto anyway with assists (without assists it's for sure horrendous).
This is something that they probably have to watch for Marvel Infinite as well. Without assists they HAVE to make characters with complete movesets, none of this just port over Ryu with no changes and have him get demolished by a ported over Morrigan.
The main issue with MVC2/MVC3 aside from general balance has been that certain characters were designed to be Point characters while others were designed to be Support or Anchor characters. IMO this is the incorrect way to do things and this results in poor balance and far stricter team compositions. People want to run the 3 characters they like to play, not 2 characters they like and a support character. You can't run Wolverine/Spider Man/Deadpool because those 3 characters have lousy assists... has absolutely nothing to do with 3v3 system and more with how those characters are designed. If Deadpool had one change in the game which was that he could use his Low Gunshots as an assist then it would change a lot in the game when it comes to team construction because suddenly you can use Wolverine and Deadpool on the same team and not look like an idiot for doing it.
And the VS series has always had a long standing imbalance between air dash characters and ground based characters, whether it's 2v2 or 3v3. Marvel 3 bridges the gap more but it's still in favor of characters with high mobility. She Hulk loses to Morrigan and Zero even in 1v1, pretty badly in fact. She is just a mediocre character in general. That was a poor example to make in that discussion. A good example of a lower tier character getting a lot better with assist is something like Hulk. Hulk has defied numerous bad match ups due to assists which exemplifies the strength if the 3v3 system. Or the infamous Haggar Magneto match up yet Haggar manages to grip Magneto anyway with assists (without assists it's for sure horrendous).
This is something that they probably have to watch for Marvel Infinite as well. Without assists they HAVE to make characters with complete movesets, none of this just port over Ryu with no changes and have him get demolished by a ported over Morrigan.
Master Milk
Member
all of this is bs
if the system were flexible enough, and the game balanced better, you would be able to pick any three characters and do your thing
CommandThrower
Member
If Marvel 3 had custom assists like in Skullgirls, then I think a shitload more characters/team comps would have been viable.
I was devastated when I found out Ghost Rider didn't have Judgment Strike(the chain projectile) as an assist. That pretty much killed my idea of a Haggar/Frank West/Ghost Rider team.
I was devastated when I found out Ghost Rider didn't have Judgment Strike(the chain projectile) as an assist. That pretty much killed my idea of a Haggar/Frank West/Ghost Rider team.
Isn't this like saying that a robust 1v1 game won't have top tiers if it's mythically balanced?
When all is said and done, I don't think the balancing of UMvC3 is even that bad. You're always going to have restrictions if you want to play a game at the highest levels.
I personally just think the role of Assists were too dominant in those games. I wouldn't mind them in Infinite if they were more restricted, but I'd be a liar if I said my preference wasn't to see them axed completely.
FadedRevolution
Member
When Marvel 3 comes to PC I wonder if modders will be able to change the assists. That would be dope.
I have been a fan of custom assists from the start, always loved it in Skullgirls. But you still need to design characters with full movesets. Ryu is still going to only have a few assist options if all he can do is Hadoken/SRK/Tatsu. Imagine if Ryu could shoot out Shinku Hadoken as a beam special move (not just as a hyper)... woah Ryu just went up a whole tier.
My point was more towards playability than balance. Sure a 3v3 system can NEVER be balanced for all character compositions but they should be more playable. If I pick 3 characters then I should be able to order and select their assists in a way that I have a fully functionable team, even if it's "low tier". There should be enough room for creativity and individuality in this system.
Doesn't he have any standout normal/command moves?
Wouldn't it be more homogenized then
He has an Overhead and a Donkey Kick, both bad for neutral.
Actually he does have one move which could be a good assist. He has a multi strike fireball move which could at least work as a pin down assist (but Tatsumaki does that too).
He also has a charge fireball which wall bounces and that would actually make a great assist.
He has a charged Shoryuken which is fully invincible and launches a projectile into near super jump height with lots of hit stun. That can at least find some niche uses.
That's one of the things that could be a problem. If every character was great on point and had great assists then people would just pick the 3 best characters and put them on a team. The real way to do is to have characters who are better at point than support but can function as support too if needed like Wolverine. So you can still use a buffed Berserker Barrage assist for lockdown but he would still be optimum as a point. This would make picking 3 best point characters not the best idea for a top tier team, you still need a balance like in Marvel 3.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
Fair but Capcom is awful at balancing
But the meta determines what a "fully-functionable" team is, doesn't it? Because if so, that's part of the problem with creating a fighting game with so many elements. You can never be 100% about what's going to come out on top and you can't rebalance a game forever. I feel like Dante/Wesker/Magneto is quite playable if my intention isn't to win a tournament.
Maybe you're right in saying that the development team consciously made characters with an Assist/Point position in mind, but I don't think that's a verifiable assumption. Doom's pretty good on a team backed by Sentinel drones or Unibeam, or any number of lockdown Assists. But he's better on a team assisting Morrigan. The meta-balance constrains players to go with the latter option, not the game's balance. There's plenty of examples of combinations that work just fine, but just don't cut the mustard at a certain level. I think we get too caught up in thinking in strictly top-tier theoretical terms sometimes.
Being able to select your own Assist like Skullgirls would definitely be able to help with that, I agree. But as we reach the apex of play, the viable combination of characters will invariably shrink, even with that implementation.
anyone who thinks she hulk vs morrigan solo is actually winnable assuming both are played to their absolute limit equally probably shouldn't be listened to.
also the whole point of how characters are designed in a 3v3 game is based upon their strengths as a point vs. their support strength. marvel 3 just fucks it up because it turns out most of the top chars that are ridiculously stupid good can effectively function solo and can still use assists just as well to generate advantageous situations more often than worse characters. the number of chars that actually are flat out effectively nonplayable on point is limited to like, arthur and hsienko. everyone else definitely rides in a decent spot in terms of support/point viability, with the outliers making up the most obvious choices to put on a team (vergil, doom, morrigan, magnus)
the assumption that 2v2 will magically be more balanced in terms of character selections is a pipe dream considering literally every single 2v2 vs series game ever made has even more fucked balanced-wise than marvel 3. assists are astonishingly effective at attempting to equalize how fucked the differences in toolsets can be between characters in terms of strengths/weaknesses and allow for a extremely significant chunk of the cast to be competitively viable. of course this means you pick assists fitting to the character but that's how 3v3/marvel games work- at the very minimum it potentially allows certain chars to be able to even be able to fight in matchups that would otherwise be effectively impossible to win. this comes at the loss of being able to just slam together whatever characters are your favorites like "im gonna play wolverine ryu and spiderman" but the gains in terms of actual gameplay depth and variability of situations happen to be huge as well.
i actually feel the nature of fighting games and the 2v2/assistless system kinda makes the conclusion of an extremely small number of competitively viable teams/chars inevitable unless the game is outrageously homogeneous in which case it's bad in another, way more important way
the idea folks keep presenting where they go "i wanna pick 2 chars and it'll be magically balanced and they'll be playable" is going to be met with the harsh reality of there being maybe 3-4 competitively viable teams and a bunch of shitty teams that straight up aren't viable. if they manage to break that pattern i'll be extremely surprised but assuming they still want to pursue that open gameplay system instead of an extremely limited system like sf5 where they theoretically should have more control over how changes affect the balance of the game, that kinda shit is gonna happen.
as for custom assist... a lot of folks like 'em, but i'm not a fan. it kind of fucks with what potential point tools a character would have that would be too strong as an assist (see: acid rain, hysteric, finger lasers). not to mention the other potential downsides mentioned which would straight ruin playability of other chars.
ultimately i don't think it's possible to really determine balance anyways for any fg so the point in design i think would be to just try and make all the chars have strong tools in unique ways so they can be fun while limiting the maximum amount of blatantly offensively stupid shit like spiral swords or dark phoenix. everything else comes to finer design/fine tuning which is hard to discuss out of an already existing, long standing game that's been thoroughly explored.
also the whole point of how characters are designed in a 3v3 game is based upon their strengths as a point vs. their support strength. marvel 3 just fucks it up because it turns out most of the top chars that are ridiculously stupid good can effectively function solo and can still use assists just as well to generate advantageous situations more often than worse characters. the number of chars that actually are flat out effectively nonplayable on point is limited to like, arthur and hsienko. everyone else definitely rides in a decent spot in terms of support/point viability, with the outliers making up the most obvious choices to put on a team (vergil, doom, morrigan, magnus)
the assumption that 2v2 will magically be more balanced in terms of character selections is a pipe dream considering literally every single 2v2 vs series game ever made has even more fucked balanced-wise than marvel 3. assists are astonishingly effective at attempting to equalize how fucked the differences in toolsets can be between characters in terms of strengths/weaknesses and allow for a extremely significant chunk of the cast to be competitively viable. of course this means you pick assists fitting to the character but that's how 3v3/marvel games work- at the very minimum it potentially allows certain chars to be able to even be able to fight in matchups that would otherwise be effectively impossible to win. this comes at the loss of being able to just slam together whatever characters are your favorites like "im gonna play wolverine ryu and spiderman" but the gains in terms of actual gameplay depth and variability of situations happen to be huge as well.
i actually feel the nature of fighting games and the 2v2/assistless system kinda makes the conclusion of an extremely small number of competitively viable teams/chars inevitable unless the game is outrageously homogeneous in which case it's bad in another, way more important way
the idea folks keep presenting where they go "i wanna pick 2 chars and it'll be magically balanced and they'll be playable" is going to be met with the harsh reality of there being maybe 3-4 competitively viable teams and a bunch of shitty teams that straight up aren't viable. if they manage to break that pattern i'll be extremely surprised but assuming they still want to pursue that open gameplay system instead of an extremely limited system like sf5 where they theoretically should have more control over how changes affect the balance of the game, that kinda shit is gonna happen.
as for custom assist... a lot of folks like 'em, but i'm not a fan. it kind of fucks with what potential point tools a character would have that would be too strong as an assist (see: acid rain, hysteric, finger lasers). not to mention the other potential downsides mentioned which would straight ruin playability of other chars.
ultimately i don't think it's possible to really determine balance anyways for any fg so the point in design i think would be to just try and make all the chars have strong tools in unique ways so they can be fun while limiting the maximum amount of blatantly offensively stupid shit like spiral swords or dark phoenix. everything else comes to finer design/fine tuning which is hard to discuss out of an already existing, long standing game that's been thoroughly explored.
It's not that I think it's easier to balance a 2v2 game vs a 3v3 game on the first attempt. I think it's easier to rebalance.
Argument from history doesn't work here. Those older games were made in a different era with a different focus. Capcom's done a pretty okay job with Season 1 SFV and the even the SF4 series.
Yeah, it's a different team, but I can't help but think that a key difference between Marvel 3 and the SF4 series (outside the politics) is just how much more complicated the former game is in comparison.
Argument from history doesn't work here. Those older games were made in a different era with a different focus. Capcom's done a pretty okay job with Season 1 SFV and the even the SF4 series.
Yeah, it's a different team, but I can't help but think that a key difference between Marvel 3 and the SF4 series (outside the politics) is just how much more complicated the former game is in comparison.
yeah, that's a fair assessment. there being less factors overall in terms of complexity to consider is definitely a real thing but it's still no real guarantee for a better game where more of the cast is actually viable, unfortunately.
it's why i mentioned that i believe the nature of 2v2/assistless + marvel-style freedom kinda ends in the same result regardless of circumstance- without that second character really being a part of the active neutral game where they can change gameplay factors it lends itself naturally to the whole 'just pick the 2-4 best chars and always put them together and every match plays out close to the same'. rebalancing would just end up shuffling those chars rather than really smoothing stuff out.
eh, who knows. like you said, it's a new generation and enough iteration within a short timespan might be the big thing needed to bring everything to that perfect point.
best i can do is just hope it's fun to me in the end, haha
it's why i mentioned that i believe the nature of 2v2/assistless + marvel-style freedom kinda ends in the same result regardless of circumstance- without that second character really being a part of the active neutral game where they can change gameplay factors it lends itself naturally to the whole 'just pick the 2-4 best chars and always put them together and every match plays out close to the same'. rebalancing would just end up shuffling those chars rather than really smoothing stuff out.
eh, who knows. like you said, it's a new generation and enough iteration within a short timespan might be the big thing needed to bring everything to that perfect point.
best i can do is just hope it's fun to me in the end, haha
KidA Seven
Member
irfaanator
Banned
one button throws are great till you play against talbain, felicia, or sas. Then they suck ass
Hear, hear.
haven't watched Aris in a few weeks. i'm missing out
back in the HDR days there was one particular gaffer who terrorized everyone in the lobby with Blanka's head bite
You BB Hood players who can't help but upback deserve it.
irfaanator
Banned
i throw out the obaa chan at times
That team is quite playable because it has two great assists on the team. Magneto and Dante are examples of characters that can be played on point while also having support tools... they are what characters should be in these games. It's easy to fit Dante and Magneto into any team.
If I change it up and say Nova/Wesker/Wolverine. All characters that I feel are good to great but this team is bad. There's no good support on the team. I can make this team like 10 times better by just replacing someone like Wesker with Doom, Akuma or Iron Man or EVEN Arthur. THAT'S the issue with the game. It's less balance and more design although balance is an issue too.
It's not an assumption, that's what they said. They even cited spreading out damage and tools in the game with the TAC system in mind. Their approach to team construction was that you would pick a pixie character who can get int and get the hit but does low damage (so like Rocket Raccoon) and then TAC into Hulk who has high damage but has trouble getting in.
What actually happened was that people played high mobility characters like Magneto and then TAC into Doom instead who also had a great assist.
Characters were designed to be support and weak on point like Arthur but strong with resources. Akuma, Vergil, Strider, Arthur, Rocket Raccoon etc. all were clearly designed to be put in the back of the team not at the front. Vergil just happened to be greatly over tuned in terms of damage and utility so he ended up being a character you could play in any spot.
That's the game balance fault for making Doom broken as a support but not as good as on point. If Doom wasn't as broken as an assist then you would have more reason to other support characters like Iron Man.
To me a well designed Marvel team is something that can be played in any order and works with each other where every character provides something to the team.
I will use one high end example and one low end example so people don't think I am focused on balance here.
Low End example:
Iron Fist/Strider/Arthur - You see this team and you think this team is garbage. 2 bad characters and one good character. Let's ignore stuff like DHCs and TACs and focus on assists. Iron Fist has access to a vertical Vajra assist and a slow moving projectile... that's two assists he very much needs. If we switch up the order and have Arthur/Iron Fist/Strider... Arthur has a pseudo get off my assist with Iron Fist's assist and a vertical assist for cover. Now with Strider on point, he has a great slow moving assist and a Rising Fang assist for combos and teleport mix ups. You can play this team in any order and it's FUNCTIONAL. The real issue here is balance as an assisted Iron Fist is still garbage and these characters aren't the best TAC characters (a SEPARATE ISSUE ENTIRELY).
Vergil/Doom/Strider - The classic Clockwork team. This team works in any order. Strider on point with Vergil for combos/mixups assist, Doom for neutral (Vergil for DHC combo damage). Doom on point with Vajra assist is super good for mix ups/combos along with Rapid Slash for keep away as it pushes people back. And of course this team is played with Vergil on point standard. Every character on this team is playable on point and supports the other character. This is how a team SHOULD function.
Another in the middle example is Dual Kevin's team of Deadpool/Dante/Hawkeye. Deadpool is the one lacking in support options and is thus played on point but the rest all support each other in different configurations. This is a rare example of an honest and functional team in Marvel 3 that's also decent to good.
So these are the types of configurations that should be designed for and it's only really possible if the support value of a lot of characters is brought up and the point value of others brought up.
.la1n
Member
It's the SF hate cycle that most top players fall into. What he should be doing, assuming he still wants a career playing SF, is figure out what character is going to give him results.
MikeBreezy92
Member
He's already doing that, he's just gonna complain while he does it
Xian and Infiltration are probably the two people who get to be most salty over season 2.
When someone like Infiltration sees the nerfs of Nash, he can't help but feel that the nerfs were targetted towards him because he won EVO with Nash.
And at the end of the day these dudes are gonna still play SFV in S2. Haven't seen anyone say they are quitting out right.
When someone like Infiltration sees the nerfs of Nash, he can't help but feel that the nerfs were targetted towards him because he won EVO with Nash.
And at the end of the day these dudes are gonna still play SFV in S2. Haven't seen anyone say they are quitting out right.
allintospace
Member
What's PR Balrog's status this week?
.la1n
Member
Semi retired not playing competitively starting his own brand competitive player.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
keijo
Tiger mask w
shaowebb
Member
Hell no they aren't quitting. If you're gonna travel all over the world playing videogames you'd better play the one that'll pay the bills.Airfare, hotels and food add up fast and a ton of FGC dudes are wracking up credit card debt chasing that gaming dream. KI , MK, and GG have had some nice pots occassionally but SFV is something that can actually support a pro gamer's career. They'd be stupid as pro players to drop the title no matter how frustrated they are with its quality.
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