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Fighting Game Headquarters |4| Cheers Love, the Anime's Here!

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K

King Kye

Banned
Dahbomb said:
That team is quite playable because it has two great assists on the team. Magneto and Dante are examples of characters that can be played on point while also having support tools... they are what characters should be in these games. It's easy to fit Dante and Magneto into any team.
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My point being; despite how "playable" this team is - you don't see it. It's not visible at the tournament level, which plays into my point that the game is balanced largely okay, given the type of fighting game that it is. The viable teams largely get restricted at the higher levels, but that's par the course for any game.

If I change it up and say Nova/Wesker/Wolverine. All characters that I feel are good to great but this team is bad. There's no good support on the team. I can make this team like 10 times better by just replacing someone like Wesker with Doom, Akuma or Iron Man or EVEN Arthur. THAT'S the issue with the game. It's less balance and more design although balance is an issue too.
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Yeah, this team is less playable than the Dante/Wesker/Doom team, but it's got its upsides: Berserker Slash Assist for Nova's his Neutral Game, you've got an unblockable in Wesker and last I heard, Wolverine on anchor isn't that bad.

None of this is ideal in reference to the current metagame, but it's still very playable. It ultimately comes down to what your goals are as a player and what you want your team to do.

It's not an assumption, that's what they said. They even cited spreading out damage and tools in the game with the TAC system in mind. Their approach to team construction was that you would pick a pixie character who can get int and get the hit but does low damage (so like Rocket Raccoon) and then TAC into Hulk who has high damage but has trouble getting in.
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You got a link to that? I'd really be interested in hearing that fleshed out a bit.

That's the game balance fault for making Doom broken as a support but not as good as on point. If Doom wasn't as broken as an assist then you would have more reason to other support characters like Iron Man.
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But he's still pretty good on point though! Just not as good!

That's the meta-balance talking not the game balance! Doom is still plenty "Functional" on a Doom/Dante/IronMan team, but it's just not as good against a Morrigan/Doom shell, which dominates the highest level!


To me a well designed Marvel team is something that can be played in any order and works with each other where every character provides something to the team.

I will use one high end example and one low end example so people don't think I am focused on balance here.

Low End example:

Iron Fist/Strider/Arthur - You see this team and you think this team is garbage. 2 bad characters and one good character. Let's ignore stuff like DHCs and TACs and focus on assists. Iron Fist has access to a vertical Vajra assist and a slow moving projectile... that's two assists he very much needs. If we switch up the order and have Arthur/Iron Fist/Strider... Arthur has a pseudo get off my assist with Iron Fist's assist and a vertical assist for cover. Now with Strider on point, he has a great slow moving assist and a Rising Fang assist for combos and teleport mix ups. You can play this team in any order and it's FUNCTIONAL. The real issue here is balance as an assisted Iron Fist is still garbage and these characters aren't the best TAC characters (a SEPARATE ISSUE ENTIRELY).

Vergil/Doom/Strider - The classic Clockwork team. This team works in any order. Strider on point with Vergil for combos/mixups assist, Doom for neutral (Vergil for DHC combo damage). Doom on point with Vajra assist is super good for mix ups/combos along with Rapid Slash for keep away as it pushes people back. And of course this team is played with Vergil on point standard. Every character on this team is playable on point and supports the other character. This is how a team SHOULD function.


Another in the middle example is Dual Kevin's team of Deadpool/Dante/Hawkeye. Deadpool is the one lacking in support options and is thus played on point but the rest all support each other in different configurations. This is a rare example of an honest and functional team in Marvel 3 that's also decent to good.


So these are the types of configurations that should be designed for and it's only really possible if the support value of a lot of characters is brought up and the point value of others brought up.
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These are all well-articulated examples but I don't think they contradict anything I said.

I don't think where we actually disagree is that there's degrees of playability for teams in Marvel 3. I think where we disagree is wether or not Assists are more trouble than they're worth. I personally think they are, and you clearly disagree with that.

If what you're saying is true about Eighting's design philosophy, then balancing the Point/Support dynamic on a per-character basis is an intuitive approach, but FG balancing is never that simple. Again, more than the theoretical top-level needs to be considered, which is why bad characters never simply get buffed and good characters never simply get weakened to some dovetailing perfection of character-balance in even the most simplest games. Adding 3v3 team dynamics with Assists, I can only largely speculate, is an absolute nightmare in comparison.

My personal compromise would be: wanna keep 3v3 and Assists? Fine. But the Assists subsystem has to be mitigated to allow extended footsies and movement play to be emphasized over getting your Assist onscreen at every moment possible. For me it's not as much about balance/playability (because I think UMVC3 does okay in these regards) as much as its about the type of FG I want to play.
 
L

Line_HTX

Member
Uh... OK, first Xrd Rev 2 changed from Spring 2017 to simply "2017", but now Tekken 7 is changed to just "2017" also? I hope this doesn't mean a delay and is just all much ado about nothing.
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
I'm just pleased seeing IronFist/Arthur mentioned. Best combination I found to make Ironfist livable. 3rd character varied but those two had to be together. I ran Taskmaster for the parabolic shot incoming character lockdown and extra zoning tools that helped cover some AA. Team was super annoying and Tasky could DHC with anyone to get damage.

Functional but yeah it had an issue with falling apart when someone got bopped early. Dark Arthur was nice to have as an anchor though. Team built good meter. There are better things though. I loved Ironfist and was willing to do anything to use him. Shoulda likely kept working on teams with Ryu or Sentinel from my vanilla team though. Kinda sucks Ironfist had so many gaps. He was super fucking fun to play with Ryu. Ryu got an OTG and Ironfist got a good DHC bro. Soooo many gaps though.
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Assists create interesting team compositions and create different neutral games based off of the assist. MvC I have assists as combo extenders or super super. Also happy birthdays are hype.
 
C

CommandThrower

Member
Line_HTX said:
Uh... OK, first Xrd Rev 2 changed from Spring 2017 to simply "2017", but now Tekken 7 is changed to just "2017" also? I hope this doesn't mean a delay and is just all much ado about nothing.
Click to expand...

With Tekken 7, I think we're still poised to hear about it's release date this month. We're half way through it, so...I guess we'll find out soon?


GG Rev2, though....not sure. Maybe we'll hear more after the loketest this weekend?
 
Kalamari

Kalamari

Member
I think we all knew Tekken 7 was delayed when its release date announcement was found to be so close to it's release window.
 
S

Sayad

Member
BadWolf said:
This Korean street fighter animated movie is the greatest thing.
Click to expand...
NrAVVbs.png

Natzi Bison dlc for SFV pls.
 
M

mikezilla2

Member
i decided to play MKXL on the PS4 with a friend just the other day and i like it ( i also have MK9) thing is im wondering if there is much of diffrence betwean short cut moves ie L1 for a Grab Vs Saqure + X for a grab move ? ie stronger ? logicaly some of these same combos should be weaker or none chainable

is there a fighting game thread i should ask in or an MK thread i should ask in ? ie for talking about move sets and combos ?
 
JeTmAn81

JeTmAn81

Member
mikezilla2 said:
i decided to play MKXL on the PS4 with a friend just the other day and i like it ( i also have MK9) thing is im wondering if there is much of diffrence betwean short cut moves ie L1 for a Grab Vs Saqure + X for a grab move ? ie stronger ? logicaly some of these same combos should be weaker or none chainable

is there a fighting game thread i should ask in or an MK thread i should ask in ? ie for talking about move sets and combos ?
Click to expand...

I haven't played MKX, but if you're asking if there's any effective difference between doing the full button combination or using a shortcut to do the same move, there shouldn't be. A move's a move, no matter how you execute it, and it has the same properties.
 
N

Naar

Member
Just released my latest trailer! I am REALLY happy with how it came out :)

It's for KBR 2017 and before anyone bitches like last time, it's Kuwait Battle Royale, not Kane Blue River :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pseWjqPwodQ

I honestly think outside of the documentaries I did, this is my favorite/best video so far. Hope you enjoy it!
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
Holy fuck does Injustice 2 look hype now. BANE BABY! He looks to be back and I am so thankful. I played that fucker since before he even gained a dash or decent D2. Can't wait to hear Doombawkz goin nuts.

EDIT: Please let him get another auto correct grab super. I wanna try and stuff wakeup roll with this sometime.
G7JbN2v.gif


Fun fact, due to the autocorrect one of the top things we had listed for Bane mains to do on their man list was to stuff Scorpion's teleport with it. Bonus points if you stuffed his teleport super. God was it ever fun to stuff characters and suffocate them with this guy.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Is this DC x Import Tuner? Why does everybody have neon costumes? It looks ridiculous. Look at how SNK, Capcom and a few other companies do character designs. They don't go overboard like NRS does. You have ninjas with spikes coming out of their knees. It's like how you are a kid and you are imaging all these impractical things. NRS is basically bringing that to life with their character designs. I like the more simple character designs of past MK games than recent.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
I still call that tame given the nature of the games. Anime is anime. It's supposed to be over the top to begin with but at least with each new game designs stay true to their original without becoming something else for the sake of something else. NRS with every game seems to add a new pocket, accessory, grove, etc to their character designs. It's like NRS is the Nomura of fighting games. We can't really think of anything so we'll just add this here and this there.
 
notworksafe

notworksafe

Member
Over the top design, far too impractal:
NJtwLEi.jpg


Appropriate character design, not impractical or over the top:
0jw7ulM.png


You can just say "I like this better" and that would be fine. No need to make up excuses like "It's supposed to be over the top" and throwing out "bad design"
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Just look at the whole portfolio instead of cherry picking pictures to try and win your own argument. Look at the MK games from past to present, look at the rest of the fighting games series from past to present. NRS always goes over the top with adding things, unnecessary things to their design because they cant think of anything. Capcom, specifically SF itself hasn't any any super dramatic costume changes until SFV itself.
 
notworksafe

notworksafe

Member
and the moment capcom did character design changes, they were all shit lmao. so no, it's not an NRS exclusive thing at all.

let's change ken's hair and add a ponytail and front bits
fEiZZNq.jpg


let's add a beard thing to akuma...totally necessary. dude even is glowing, your exact complaint about Injustice 2
s08EsAW.jpg


again, it's a design you don't like. that doesn't mean it's bad design.
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
Kadey said:
Just look at the whole portfolio instead of cherry picking pictures to try and win your own argument. Look at the MK games from past to present, look at the rest of the fighting games series from past to present. NRS always goes over the top with adding things, unnecessary things to their design because they cant think of anything. Capcom, specifically SF itself hasn't any any super dramatic costume changes until SFV itself.
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Its NRS. They made a fortune by going over the top with MK. Fatalities, loud and ridiculous moves and attacks...its what the people told them with their wallets they want from them. You can't fault a studio for doing what their public likes. Their audience is very western and have always been fairly vocal about characters. Their style of character/world design developed in response to this is how I see it. I would honestly imagine backlash should they ever do something outside of their design style given how much folks look to them for such tones in games now. It would be like ditching their fanbase which is the only reason they stayed alive through the Midway years and the only reason they were worth resurrecting once they died. They had fans of what they did and their was value in that.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
notworksafe said:
and the moment capcom did character design changes, they were all shit lmao. so no, it's not an NRS exclusive thing at all.

let's change ken's hair and add a ponytail and front bits
qplLR2e.jpg


let's add a beard thing to akuma...totally necessary. dude even is glowing, your exact complaint about Injustice 2
s08EsAW.jpg


again, it's a design you don't like. that doesn't mean it's bad design.
Click to expand...

That's like chump change minor shit compared to what NRS has done throughout the years. Can you specifically name every single design detail of Scorpion from after MK4 to now? Exactly my point. Meanwhile I can practically name every single design change of any SF character from when they came to be to now. Why? Because Capcom did not change much. They kept it simple.
And nowhere did I say they were bad just ridiculous and by ridiculous I was alluding more to the Injustice 2 costumes have all these tron like crap to them. If you think they look nice that's fine.
 
C

CO_Andy

Member
Kadey sees this

Bfksil6.jpg
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when she wants this

latest
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the Hollywood edgelord design is silly, but you can't expect their audience to have the same sensibilities as those who lived and breathed Japanese fighting games. SFV got some misses in character design, but the animation is liteyears ahead of anything NRS. that's the sort of thing the typical MK player doesn't care much about as long as the graphics are as shiny as possible
 
notworksafe

notworksafe

Member
that's fine but holding up capcom/snk as an example of how to do design is silly, as those companies have proven they make the same exact mistakes.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Like can you really picture Batman running around trying to be all stealthy but having these neon green things stuck to his arms? That's what I mean by impractical. You can post Mika wearing her gear but she's a wrestler who's job is to entertain. Her outfit complements her fine.

But I cant really blame them. They know what they are doing in order to get sales. People like flashy things. I do too but I know when they are over the top.

For the record I think Tekken has the best designs.
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
Osu 16 Bit said:
Bane's d+2 didn't become "decent". It became OD. I'm triggered.
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lol
Hey we all kept trying to tell everyone that they were just parroting bad opinions on a character they never took the time to explore. Buffs kept getting called for when the character was fine with just a few patches. Now people got PTBD ...Post Traumatic BANE syndrome. Got a tactic? Got a setup? Got a plan? Lol Bane breaks those rules. Staggerable armor, fast long range dashups, armor that stuffs wakeups and MB tools,Moves that put you full screen that he can land 2 dash ups safely after, and enough damage to play patient and take a whole life bar in a go...guy was nuts. He was a bracket buster because he screwed up matchups and predictions pretty much no matter who was played.

Can't wait for that grappling wildcard to return. :)

Also seriously hoping for some changes to Green Arrow should he return. Too little damage , couldn't outzone, and was entirely reliant on ice arrow resets to survive. I still strongly think fire arrow should've had on hit opponents blown into the air juggle style towards him like Shang's fire causes. He'd gain a long range starter and a way to combo off of strings that used to push folks too far out. Not like hit scaling wouldn't catch up to him before it got outta hand. I dream big though. He'd probably be better off with trick arrow specials and a new gimmick to increase the amount he shoots or something.
 
.la1n

.la1n

Member
Kadey said:
Like can you really picture Batman running around trying to be all stealthy but having these neon green things stuck to his arms? That's what I mean by impractical. You can post Mika wearing her gear but she's a wrestler who's job is to entertain. Her outfit complements her fine.

But I cant really blame them. They know what they are doing in order to get sales. People like flashy things. I do too but I know when they are over the top.

For the record I think Tekken has the best designs.
Click to expand...

Tekken has my consistently favorite character design across their history. As long as you completely ignore the rediculous character accessories.
 
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