Cindi Mayweather
Member
Okay. I can agree with this. I wonder what sp content they do next. Where's my online training mode, Capcom?
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Okay. I can agree with this. I wonder what sp content they do next. Where's my online training mode, Capcom?
irfaanator
Banned
honestly where's my saved training mode options. How the hell has capcom not put that in yet is beyond me. So dumb
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Omg dude I know wtf. Been wondering where this at since the beta.
Training mode is so much worse than SFIV's in many areas.
Just tweeted he is learning Mika now
Single player mode should be used to teach players the game in a safe environment before they move on to multiplayer.
Of course these companies don't know how to design a single player campaign for a fighting game. Throwing in AI battles while you control a pre-determined character is some lazy non sense.
Design the single player game so that you start a character with very few moves at the start and the enemies you fight against have unique attributes to them and you need to figure out their gimmick to beat them. When you progress, you can unlock new moves/abilities on your character so you learn your character piece meal.
The fights should be paced with other mini-game/diversions that help you get better at the game. Sort of like those GGXrd mini-games in their training mode. You are put in various fighting game situations like you have 1 HP left and you need to dodge fireballs for 10 seconds. Or survive 20 seconds while you have your inputs flipped and reversed. Point is that these mini-games should teach you some more intricate aspect of the game that is hard to learn by yourself in a regular match. And please no god damn QTE mini-games, that stuff is really really lame.
It's the same mistake Capcom made when they put Dante in DMC4. They threw Dante into the game half through the game with an expansive movelist and no one knew how to play with Dante. And even then you had to buy more moves for Dante. That is what it feels like when you throw these random battles in a single player of a fighting game... it's just a glorified AI battle that you can do in training mode if you want to.
Of course these companies don't know how to design a single player campaign for a fighting game. Throwing in AI battles while you control a pre-determined character is some lazy non sense.
Design the single player game so that you start a character with very few moves at the start and the enemies you fight against have unique attributes to them and you need to figure out their gimmick to beat them. When you progress, you can unlock new moves/abilities on your character so you learn your character piece meal.
The fights should be paced with other mini-game/diversions that help you get better at the game. Sort of like those GGXrd mini-games in their training mode. You are put in various fighting game situations like you have 1 HP left and you need to dodge fireballs for 10 seconds. Or survive 20 seconds while you have your inputs flipped and reversed. Point is that these mini-games should teach you some more intricate aspect of the game that is hard to learn by yourself in a regular match. And please no god damn QTE mini-games, that stuff is really really lame.
It's the same mistake Capcom made when they put Dante in DMC4. They threw Dante into the game half through the game with an expansive movelist and no one knew how to play with Dante. And even then you had to buy more moves for Dante. That is what it feels like when you throw these random battles in a single player of a fighting game... it's just a glorified AI battle that you can do in training mode if you want to.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Agreed word for word.
It's like buying Starcraft and instead of a game that teaches you the basics and resource management and stuff, you get random battles that don't teach you a thing on how to play Starcraft. You get Zerg in a random battle and you don't know how the fuck to use Zerg and the story mode will allow you play as Zerg only twice in its entire run, with no comment on what to do. So when you finally wanna play SC online and you pick Zerg, there's a huge time sink to even know what to do.
The entire thing is futile and stinks of a mindless diversion that has very little to do with the game itself.
I'm shocked that fighting games don't have Danger Room like modes where you avoid obstacles and learn to fight stuff. Their single player modes are almost unanimously terrible. Even XRD Rev's tutorial mode doesn't say a thing about zoning or meaty or space or basic fg concepts. I find even Rev's tutorial lacking.
Yeah imagine playing Starcraft single player and all you did was fight 1v1 AI Skirmish battle for every single mission. Everyone would get bored of that real quick and not learn anything from completing it.
Here's how a Starcraft 2 level is designed:
*You are usually introduced to a new unit in that mission and they give a brief explanation of what it is effective at.
*The entire level is designed in such a way that using that unit is the most effective strategy so you get the grasp of what situation that unit is useful in.
*There are bonus objectives in that mission that you can go for that are usually harder (like say beat the opponent without losing a structure).
*They will throw a curve ball in the mission that might deter you from just spamming that new unit to victory, you might need to mix it up a bit.
*There's more to the level than just selecting those units and attack commanding to the base of the enemy.
Fighting games are simply decades behind when it comes to stuff like this and online infrastructure.
Here's how a Starcraft 2 level is designed:
*You are usually introduced to a new unit in that mission and they give a brief explanation of what it is effective at.
*The entire level is designed in such a way that using that unit is the most effective strategy so you get the grasp of what situation that unit is useful in.
*There are bonus objectives in that mission that you can go for that are usually harder (like say beat the opponent without losing a structure).
*They will throw a curve ball in the mission that might deter you from just spamming that new unit to victory, you might need to mix it up a bit.
*There's more to the level than just selecting those units and attack commanding to the base of the enemy.
Fighting games are simply decades behind when it comes to stuff like this and online infrastructure.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
A lot of stuff like VF4 EVO's modes I think end up being overstated for how useful they are too.
Surely there's a way to make FG sp modes that hardcore and casual both find useful in terms of content? It's not impossible.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Blazblue has done a few things like locking Ragna's drive out or preventing Jin from unshething his sword. Then unlimited mode fights to spice things up
However no one has really done a proper progression story. Closes would be soul calibur
However no one has really done a proper progression story. Closes would be soul calibur
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I'm convinced more than ever that we need Blizzard to make a fighting game.
If Blizzard made a fg they'd make a sp mode that had you capable of doing only a few moves a level and would teach you the use of those moves. We're talking just normals, no specials. Then eventually you'd move on to specials, space, corner carry, pressure, turns, reversals, anti-airs, supers.
I am convinced that if Blizzard made a fg it would demolish previous ways fg sp modes are played while still providing a trashy story that the people crave.
If Blizzard made a fg they'd make a sp mode that had you capable of doing only a few moves a level and would teach you the use of those moves. We're talking just normals, no specials. Then eventually you'd move on to specials, space, corner carry, pressure, turns, reversals, anti-airs, supers.
I am convinced that if Blizzard made a fg it would demolish previous ways fg sp modes are played while still providing a trashy story that the people crave.
It will be super popular, accessible, have decent netcode and might have a good single player mode (if they make one, they haven't made one of those in a while).
The actual depth and balance would be a wash. The Blizzard balance approach does not gel well with fighting games at all.
Smooth Operator
Member
Curious to know more about the future League of Fighters.
I think you are right and wrong in a sense Dahbomb.
I do think you are right in the sense that there does need to be modes that can take someone from a complete beginner with regards to fighting games to being competent in an online environment but I also don't think that's what the people who are asking for sp content want.
As weird as it is some people actually only want to face the AI in single fights or want a story presented to them in a cinematic way with regard to the lore so I don't think that actually would fix that issue for them. I actually feel like these modes would make the SP crowd pass over on a fighter if it were all it offered with regards to that because they aren't looking to transition into an mp environment.
I do think you are right in the sense that there does need to be modes that can take someone from a complete beginner with regards to fighting games to being competent in an online environment but I also don't think that's what the people who are asking for sp content want.
As weird as it is some people actually only want to face the AI in single fights or want a story presented to them in a cinematic way with regard to the lore so I don't think that actually would fix that issue for them. I actually feel like these modes would make the SP crowd pass over on a fighter if it were all it offered with regards to that because they aren't looking to transition into an mp environment.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Xrd's stuff is great, but it would serve casuals better if it was organically mixed with a story mode. Take that approach and "disguise" the fact that its a tutorial and the hardcore can enjoy it as well. Well, that is, the hardcore that playthrough the story modes
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I think it'd have a good amount of depth though. I think they'd approach it like an rts game.
People won't actually know what they want in a single player content of a fighting game until they finally get it. We are so far away from something like that people can't even really dream about it.
People didn't know they wanted a game like the Souls series until they finally got it.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I mean, I like ASW training modes but it feels like they're not going all the way out. I guess I want more. I love how they package their stuff but it still feels like it obscures how FGs are played and it assumes you're already good at them.
Well Cindi's already stated they were overrated I think
I remember vanilla DoA5 tried to do that, have some semblance of a story, but the whole thing was basically a tutorial.
Story mode isn't the full, finished version of either character.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
VF4 Evolution is IMO in the top 5 best fighters ever made.
But its tutorial mode isn't that great. The only reason people put it on the pedestal it's on is because it was one of if not the first fighting games to have an in depth tutorial which before VF4, in fighting games, didn't really exist. Before then you had arcade, training, versus, and some elaborate gimmick mode like Alpha 3's World Tour, or whatever was in SCII. It was considered at the time a great leap forward.
But looking back it standardized what fgs do even today in tutorial modes. Explain game mechanics and combos but not actual strategy or technique. Where the games systems take priority above all else. So you'll have a whole list of things that explain how to play Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's unique systems and mechanics but not how to play actually fighting games. There's a big difference in these two aims.
So while VF4's tutorial will show you how to escape throws or recover your balance after a devastating attack it doesn't say a thing about basic universal fighting game concepts like space control, tootsies;etc. and it's something every fighting game with a tutorial mode since has done. Like Xrd and SFIV and V have a tutorial that teaches how to tech throws but there's nothing on learning when it's a good time to assume your opponent is going to go for a throw so you can practice throw escapes or how to condition players to think you're going to throw and then punish. It's just a game mode that teaches the basics of the basics and the games feel like they're up their ass. I played Xrd Rev's tutorial after hearing how revolutionary it was and literally said out loud "that's it?"
That's how much people want an actual mode that teaches how to play fighters: because people are willing to accept even a bare minimum amount of effort.
IMO, Arc does it the best though. Like BlazBlue character tutorials are amazing. They actually tell you what that characters best moves are and their main utility ("_____ is great for zoning" is an example). When I played SFV's character tutorials I chuckled at how basic they were.
Did you play the Missions though? Those are part of the tutorial setup. The very first ones, for example, demonstrate the concepts of spacing f.S pokes on offense and defense. Were you considering these when you said:
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I think the missions are good, but again, it's a list of things. I think they're useful for me to learn match up knowledge, but I don't think they're a great way to teach or introduce how to play fighting games to people just starting out. You've got a whole list of things and that should be pretty overwhelming to new players. It's not contextual at all. It's just a list of missions. I think they [fighters] would do a lot better and appeal to more people if they stopped obscuring their concepts behind lists and actually put them in an actual single player based game mode. How is someone just starting out going to realize how important learning how to best Fafnir is or what the lesson instills? They just think it's a mission. Complete mission and go on to something else. It doesn't explain why it's important or anything beyond is base abstraction of "this is how you beat Fafnir." It's not teaching a concept to them. It's just a random stage on a list.
irfaanator
Banned
yea the training tutorial of xrd sucks but mission mode is pretty sick. Especially since it covers character specific stuff too
Yeah, I'm hoping they do try to at least find some other sp component to add. Hopefully they don't think story mode's it, time to call it a day. Feels like they need something more to complement it. Honestly not expecting anything until after season 1 is complete.
I find it weird that it saves recordings in training mode but nothing else. If they haven't already, they need to let rematch function work like SF4's and Marvel's. Having the ability to decide when to start the match unless your opponent steps up to say otherwise is too strong lol
If FG devs had the budget for it they could design a single player campaign that could be disguised as a tutorial where you go through the various stages, experience the story and encounter npcs or whatever and also have unique enemies/bosses that require or have weaknesses to certain tactics or moves that you'd use against actual players to defeat them. Occasionally playable characters could show up too. Maybe have some enemies share some animations to existing characters. It'd be sort of like a beat em up or something. This would be there along with the regular tutorial, challenge modes, combo trials and/or whatever mini games the devs come up with. I like the regular tutorial stuff but it sometimes feels like homework and it's sort of robotic to go through. I think having a single player mode like this could help somewhat.
For minigames maybe make fun challenges for the player to do certain things that are applicable when fighting other people but doesn't outright tell you it's for that. Add a score count or leaderboards if it makes sense for the minigame too.
There also needs to be stat tracking and advice after matches. For example the game notices you're getting hit by a lot of jump in attacks so it tells you to try and use x move or try y tactic after a match or it could set up a custom challenge where it'll pit you against the character you were just fighting against and it'll challenge you to punish the jump in attempts. This could be in a separate mode on the main menu that automatically generates these challenges based on what's giving you trouble using data from the stat tracking. If the game has trials that tell you how to beat a character or deal with a tactic/specific move from a character it could add those to that mode too to help you deal with that if you're losing a lot to that character or something. It'd be almost like if you were to record the dummy in training mode to help you do the same thing. I'm not really sure how hard this would be to do or if it's even feasible.
There's also the idea of daily and/or weekly challenges that would help with x thing like whiff punishing or punishing a move that's punishable on block or whatever could be implemented too and you get rewards for doing them. I think having small unlockables tied to that stuff could be an incentive to do them like titles, online avatars, in game currency if the game has that or small cosmetics that aren't too out there or visually too distracting that you can add to your character. Probably wouldn't work with 2d art games though. Maybe for those they can give you an avatar that you can customize like in Pokken.
also maybe a place where you can download or share dummy recordings with other people or make custom combo challenges.
I dunno. :x
For minigames maybe make fun challenges for the player to do certain things that are applicable when fighting other people but doesn't outright tell you it's for that. Add a score count or leaderboards if it makes sense for the minigame too.
There also needs to be stat tracking and advice after matches. For example the game notices you're getting hit by a lot of jump in attacks so it tells you to try and use x move or try y tactic after a match or it could set up a custom challenge where it'll pit you against the character you were just fighting against and it'll challenge you to punish the jump in attempts. This could be in a separate mode on the main menu that automatically generates these challenges based on what's giving you trouble using data from the stat tracking. If the game has trials that tell you how to beat a character or deal with a tactic/specific move from a character it could add those to that mode too to help you deal with that if you're losing a lot to that character or something. It'd be almost like if you were to record the dummy in training mode to help you do the same thing. I'm not really sure how hard this would be to do or if it's even feasible.
There's also the idea of daily and/or weekly challenges that would help with x thing like whiff punishing or punishing a move that's punishable on block or whatever could be implemented too and you get rewards for doing them. I think having small unlockables tied to that stuff could be an incentive to do them like titles, online avatars, in game currency if the game has that or small cosmetics that aren't too out there or visually too distracting that you can add to your character. Probably wouldn't work with 2d art games though. Maybe for those they can give you an avatar that you can customize like in Pokken.
also maybe a place where you can download or share dummy recordings with other people or make custom combo challenges.
I dunno. :x
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Anyways, since starting my night job I haven't been to my local. It really sucks and I feel like I'm being left behind on the games I play. Doesn't help that I work weekends too. I feel like I have to play single player games now until I can play fighters with people again. It sucks. I may have to look into other locals. I wanted to do Juicebox's personal lessons with subscribers but I work on Monday nights.
notworksafe
Member
Last person I know that got lessons with Juicebox went 0-2 at EVO, save your money.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Ouch, hahaha
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Who was it
notworksafe
Member
a gaf member, but not someone who posts in fghq
Did he just not do his assigned homework or
Holy Order Sol
Member
well Krillin's latent power was awakened by the Namek Elder and he still got bopped
because he was fucking Krillin lol
because he was fucking Krillin lol
harsh
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Krillin survived being chased by Cell. Would you last one round against Daigo or Infiltration?
skLaFarebear
Member
Floe and Justin tryna prove they're smarter than a 5th grader.
Went for this and stayed for Justin's opinions on anal
Hope top 8 is interesting
it's gradually rewarding people for learning the game. evade 5 attacks, escape 8 throws, ring your opponent out. that was over 13 years ago. overstated? we should be doing better by now, and we're not.
vf4evo training mode is great for 2003 but only does a few really neat things compared to today's fighters (half-speed, VF specific stuff about MTE) while lacking stuff like frame data or hitbox viewers. so, great but dated.
also frustrating that you can only train on designated training stage, while the base game has every stage from the arcade version of 4EVO, plus every stage from VF4 vanilla, plus an exclusive stage, plus every stage from VF1.
but you can't use them in training. -____-
the tutorial suffers a bit from text-overload, but the amount of information it provides really is outstanding. it could benefit from being less monotonous, and in general i recommend against doing the whole tutorial in one sitting.
the best stuff is quest mode, though, which along with being really gratifying, rewards you for completing missions that reinforce defense and offense. there's a lot of cool extras too, like videos of people doing max dmg kage combos one handed and a buttload of jp tourney replays that you can turn inputs on for.
jwong and floe doing karaoke on stream while marn's dancing in the background
https://www.twitch.tv/floe
https://www.twitch.tv/floe
Professor Beef
Banned
Marn is the only one going in on these songs tho
Justin doesn't even know the lyrics to TLC's No scrubs. smh
Professor Beef
Banned
You would think someone who came up in the 90s would know that. ESPECIALLY a member of the FGC.
Indeed
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