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[MechaX]

Tekken movement is like Marvel movement. It's clunky and hard when you first get into it but when you learn to cancel dashes into each other it starts to feel great.

In both of those games you can tell good players from great by how they move.

The emphasis on good movement is a big reason why I stuck with Gundam for so many years (and why I always liked Virtual On).

Yeah, you could do combos and shit with melee, but for the most part, the big thing in that game is learning how to move and dodge effectively. You could move in a manner that keeps you at max lock-on range, or you could try to move in a fashion that gets you prime for melee (it's usually a combination of both). It made the neutral game a lot more exciting for me.

 

[Kalamari]

Who needs good movement when you have a shotgun sniper

 

[direct_quote]

Not in Destiny. Titan class has something called skating. Double tap to dash. You can cancel it and so forth. Enemies can't react in time if you master it.

Man that's so slow compared to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI840bR3HYc
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo
Second one there isn't much bunnyhopping, but it's also using the gaining momentum in air exploit that allows bunnyhopping in gold source and quake games.

 

[Karsticles]

Are there any videos on character archetypes and how they apply to Gundam VS? I might get into that.

Man that's so slow compared to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI840bR3HYc
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo
Second one there isn't much bunnyhopping, but it's also using the gaining momentum in air exploit that allows bunnyhopping in gold source and quake games.

That makes me nauseous.

 

[Doomshine]

If anything I find movement in other fighters to be a bit stiff after learning Tekken movement, but to each their own.

 

[Kadey]

Man that's so slow compared to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI840bR3HYc
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr5Tt42EXo
Second one there isn't much bunnyhopping, but it's also using the gaining momentum in air exploit that allows bunnyhopping in gold source and quake games.

Those Quake games are PC games where default movement is overly faster than modern fps and in particular console FPSs. Overall movement in older FPS games were faster just like mouse and keyboard is way faster than a pad.

That's just one very small example of Titan skating which was at the beginning. If you want to see higher tier skating you'll have to watch pros like AEgabriel who invented the thing.

Movement is much faster than your opponents. It's like comparing the movement of Champ's Magneto to someone who just started playing and using him. And it is slowed down in gif form.

If you want to see how fast skating can go, look at this example. It's like cheating when you can move that fast compared to your opponents in PVP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oct2lQlXDI0

Hunter class also has something called shadestep. I don't know if any fighting game has an equivalent but it's basically sidestepping but you can go it in any direction. The way pros do it is like a work of art.

 

[Brobzoid]

tekken isn't stiff, it's twitchy. Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown on the other hand is a wonderfully smooth game~~

 

[Kadey]

I thought Guardians 2 was more of the same. First one was better to me. Movie felt like it didn't have to be made but it was entertaining.

 

[direct_quote]

Those Quake games are PC games where default movement is overly faster than modern fps and in particular console FPSs. Overall movement in older FPS games were faster just like mouse and keyboard is way faster than a pad.

That's just one very small example of Titan skating which was at the beginning. If you want to see higher tier skating you'll have to watch pros like AEgabriel who invented the thing.

Movement is much faster than your opponents. It's like comparing the movement of Champ's Magneto to someone who just started playing and using him. And it is slowed down in gif form.

If you want to see how fast skating can go, look at this example. It's like cheating when you can move that fast compared to your opponents in PVP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oct2lQlXDI0

Hunter class also has something called shadestep. I don't know if any fighting game has an equivalent but it's basically sidestepping but you can go it in any direction. The way pros do it is like a work of art.

I'd agree that designing games for console and PC means you have to slow things down. But I'd like to see games that at least try to put fast movement and air control as a main selling point. Titan Fall 2 seems like they were trying that on some level (and I watched something where they nerfed that movement somewhat from TF1?), but I'd like another TFC or NS1 some day. Not going to happen though because building the skills in those games took years (for me at least). Ain't no one got time for that on top of the skill required just to aim too, and learning aspects of maps, etc....

 

[Kadey]

I'd agree that designing games for console and PC means you have to slow things down. But I'd like to see games that at least try to put fast movement and air control as a main selling point. Titan Fall 2 seems like they were trying that on some level (and I watched something where they nerfed that movement somewhat from TF1?), but I'd like another TFC or NS1 some day. Not going to happen though because building the skills in those games took years (for me at least). Ain't no one got time for that on top of the skill required just to aim too, and learning aspects of maps, etc....

That's why I made the comment because in those games movement was fast for everyone despite being faster than modern fps. Everybody was in the same playing in field.

In Destiny, Titan skating is so much faster than default movement that it's almost not fair. Also Titans are supreme in the air. You can air tiger knee and juke in all direction with a particular armor equipped. If you want to get into fast movement with air control. That''s what my gif showed too. I can fly in the air and 360 move myself while in the air in any direction. Only Titans can do that.

That's why I like Destiny. It has a lot of SF to it. Tiger knees, supers, etc. I consider constant one shot kill sniping a one frame link combo.

 

[MechaX]

I cannot believe I forgot to mention Melee in this. For the flack that wavedashing gets, it opened the fuck out of some characters that would be too slow otherwise, like Samus. I miss Melee Samus.

Are there any videos on character archetypes and how they apply to Gundam VS? I might get into that.

Unfortunately I don't know of any offhand, but I bet people like Brett have definitely explored it in the past.

Plus, the roster in Full Boost and Maxi Boost was pretty huge, but for the most part, you could find a variety of suits with different play styles (some for long range zoning, some for setting up traps, some for straight up rush down, some that were very good with the oki game, etc).

 

[cryptosporidium]

Been playin G:MotW. Really love Butt and Gato, so much fun to play.

 

[Karsticles]

I cannot believe I forgot to mention Melee in this. For the flack that wavedashing gets, it opened the fuck out of some characters that would be too slow otherwise, like Samus. I miss Melee Samus.



Unfortunately I don't know of any offhand, but I bet people like Brett have definitely explored it in the past.

Plus, the roster in Full Boost and Maxi Boost was pretty huge, but for the most part, you could find a variety of suits with different play styles (some for long range zoning, some for setting up traps, some for straight up rush down, some that were very good with the oki game, etc).

Is there a place that lists the Gundams and their playstyles?

 

[sixteen-bit]

ARMS moment #37

 

[irfaanator]

I cannot believe I forgot to mention Melee in this. For the flack that wavedashing gets, it opened the fuck out of some characters that would be too slow otherwise, like Samus. I miss Melee Samus.



Unfortunately I don't know of any offhand, but I bet people like Brett have definitely explored it in the past.

Plus, the roster in Full Boost and Maxi Boost was pretty huge, but for the most part, you could find a variety of suits with different play styles (some for long range zoning, some for setting up traps, some for straight up rush down, some that were very good with the oki game, etc).

I thought you dont play anything

 

[MechaX]

Is there a place that lists the Gundams and their playstyles?

This is what I could find for Full Boost.

Given Maxi Boost never getting a console version and Versus releasing in a few months, this might be out of date, but this should give some perspective on how a lot of these suits are viewed.

I thought you dont play anything

Nah, the first mistake I made was trying to play SFV.

I am quite salty about whatever the fuck Capcom decided to do to Juri.

But I'll be back on that Gundam Versus day one. And likely Tekken 7 day one too. I guess Rev 2, but I'm ass at that game.

Spoiler

You coming back for Stormblood?

 

[SixMachine]

ARMS moment #37

Arms is legit fun when I played it at SXSW. And also believe it or not, I think you can easily see skill disparity between players since there actually evasion, positioning, and whiff punishing because there actually is quite the recovery on missing a punch. One gripe I had because I wasn't used to the motion controls is the movement gets some getting used to because you have to lean/tilt to basically sidestep where you want, so it seems you can get some accidental movement easily, which can mess me up since I was trying to move and curve a punch at the same time.

 

[irfaanator]

This is what I could find for Full Boost.

Given Maxi Boost never getting a console version and Versus releasing in a few months, this might be out of date, but this should give some perspective on how a lot of these suits are viewed.



Nah, the first mistake I made was trying to play SFV.

I am quite salty about whatever the fuck Capcom decided to do to Juri.

But I'll be back on that Gundam Versus day one. And likely Tekken 7 day one too. I guess Rev 2, but I'm ass at that game.

Spoiler

You coming back for Stormblood?

not at the moment

 

[MechaX]

not at the moment

But c'mon man. Red Mage and Samurai!

 

[irfaanator]

But c'mon man. Red Mage and Samurai!

you know its just gonna be like how 3.0 was. And remember the start of 3.0 for us

 

[MechaX]

you know its just gonna be like how 3.0 was. And remember the start of 3.0 for us

For what it's worth, if our tank didn't drop, I think we would have made it through 3.0 just like 2.0.

... With that said, I don't know if that would have been a good thing or not given how 3.0 turned out on that front.

 

[Onemic]

Yeah, I've seen the seizures in top play.

But...you play marvel tho.....

The movement is even more janky in top play since everyone crouchdashes.

 

[Anne]

Destiny movement looks like ass compared to the glorious years of FPC bhopping. Fucking console shooters :<

 

[irfaanator]

For what it's worth, if our tank didn't drop, I think we would have made it through 3.0 just like 2.0.

... With that said, I don't know if that would have been a good thing or not given how 3.0 turned out on that front.

galen was already a free agent at that point

 

[Lulubop]

Is destiny's multiplayer 30fps?

 

[shaowebb]

huh...apparently Steam does NOT calculate your time played across multiple devices if you are not online the entire time. The GPD Win doesn't have wifi where I work so I play solo stuff on fighters. Later its not logging my time. Plus things like Super Puzzle Platformer Deluxe that I installed to the flashdrive on my PC dont see the game on the GPD Win when I boot my Steam Library. I have to physically click the app on the flashdrive and it wont even save my progress unless I have steam open in offline mode FIRST before I clsoe it. I've had to unlock Beelzeblock 4 times now on break.

Reaaaaally starting to find some gaps in the whole GPD Win pocket PC and use my steam account plan. I error a lot downloading stuff thats big to the SD card. or usb on the gpd win from home. I have to download using the PC to a storage device first then just take it with me.

I'm loving having all these fighters at work but at the same time I know I've got way more than a single hour of friggin Nitroplus Blasterz on PC and far more than what it shows of Blade Arcus.

 

[MechaX]

Watching this Marn match, and man... Ibuki can get full resources Round 1, why can't Juri?!

galen was already a free agent at that point

Galen was chasing that pro raider status, but I think the keeping him or transitioning to another DPS would have been way easier than getting another tank.

 

[direct_quote]

That's why I made the comment because in those games movement was fast for everyone despite being faster than modern fps. Everybody was in the same playing in field.

In Destiny, Titan skating is so much faster than default movement that it's almost not fair. Also Titans are supreme in the air. You can air tiger knee and juke in all direction with a particular armor equipped. If you want to get into fast movement with air control. That''s what my gif showed too. I can fly in the air and 360 move myself while in the air in any direction. Only Titans can do that.

That's why I like Destiny. It has a lot of SF to it. Tiger knees, supers, etc. I consider constant one shot kill sniping a one frame link combo.

That still feels pretty limited to what golden source games did for skill based movement. But I haven't played destiny or Titan Fall so I can only comment from outside perspective. I know they had surf and bunny hopping maps for a lot of golden source games because of how integral it was for some mods, would be interesting if Titan Fall had the same for PC version. And weight based restrictions obviously weren't as present in older games, Though NS1 had a heavy class and The Specialists had some form of weapon weight that affected skills.

 

[Wallach]

That still feels pretty limited to what golden source games did for skill based movement. But I haven't played destiny or Titan Fall so I can only comment from outside perspective. I know they had surf and bunny hopping maps for a lot of golden source games because of how integral it was for some mods, would be interesting if Titan Fall had the same for PC version. And of course you could 360 move yourself by default because most games didn't implement weight restrictions.. Though NS1 had a heavy class and The Specialists had some form of weapon weight that affected skills.

Titans in Destiny are still pretty slow and more importantly very easy to control.

The first Titanfall I would say is a more worthwhile case study for advanced movement in a modern style FPS. I don't know if they kept that much movement depth in the sequel however.

 

[ColonialHawk]

Titans in Destiny are still pretty slow and more importantly very easy to control.

The first Titanfall I would say is a more worthwhile case study for advanced movement in a modern style FPS. I don't know if they kept that much movement depth in the sequel however.

They did. The movement in Titanfall 2 is so good.

 

[FACE]

Destiny movement looks like ass compared to the glorious years of FPC bhopping. Fucking console shooters :<

Says the Overwatch player.

runs

 

[Kadey]

You're comparing a game that could run at 120fps with limited animations and all that stuff even during it's time to a 30fps modern game with a whole lot more stuff to it.

It's funny that Titans are the fastest and Titanfall is arguably the fastest pace modern FPS.

Overwatch looks slow as molasses compared to any modern FPS yet alone Destiny even with it at 60fps. Then again I think it's first to have a grappler/close up based character.

But we're talking about movement. Not necessary speed. Destiny or Bungie games as a whole has that fluid game play to it. That's what they are known for.

 

[Kalamari]

Man, I just realized there is only a week between Rev 2 and Tekken 7. I hardly have the time to play just one game these days let alone two, and then Gundam comes a month after. FG saturation point right now.

 

[Professor Beef]

Says the Overwatch player.

runs

with your internet speed, you'd do more of a stroll

 

[MechaX]

Oh my God

ChrisG felt the entire force, the entire weight of all the bullshit of SFV in that one instant.

 

[Wallach]

You're comparing a game that could run at 120fps with limited animations and all that stuff even during it's time to a 30fps modern game with a whole lot more stuff to it.

It's funny that Titans are the fastest and Titanfall is arguably the fastest pace modern FPS.

Overwatch looks slow as molasses compared to any modern FPS yet alone Destiny even with it at 60fps. Then again I think it's first to have a grappler/close up based character.

But we're talking about movement. Not necessary speed. Destiny or Bungie games as a whole has that fluid game play to it. That's what they are known for.

For the record I'm not disparaging Destiny, I've played quite a lot of the game. I just think movement specifically is one of the weaker aspects of its foundation in terms of depth. Looking at the Warlock and Hunter in particular it strikes me that the skill ceiling was kept pretty low in this context intentionally. Part of me wonders if we will even see skating survive the sequel since the Titan is a pretty clear outlier and I don't think staking was an intentional interaction. Ideally we'd see more advanced movement given to the other classes, which I'd love to see for Destiny 2, but I don't know if its a given.

I don't know much about Overwatch, but to be honest the movement options strike me as pretty similar to Destiny's in that the core movement foundation is slow and linear, and per-class movement options are kept to very specific contexts (though just by virtue of roster size the number of situations is inherently much higher).

 

[Dahbomb]

ChrisG shaking his head too many times now, he has already mentally given up.

 

[Wallach]

man I hope snake resets this bracket this is a sick matchup

 

[Kadey]

For the record I'm not disparaging Destiny, I've played quite a lot of the game. I just think movement specifically is one of the weaker aspects of its foundation in terms of depth. Looking at the Warlock and Hunter in particular it strikes me that the skill ceiling was kept pretty low in this context intentionally. Part of me wonders if we will even see skating survive the sequel since the Titan is a pretty clear outlier and I don't think staking was an intentional interaction. Ideally we'd see more advanced movement given to the other classes, which I'd love to see for Destiny 2, but I don't know if its a given.

I don't know much about Overwatch, but to be honest the movement options strike me as pretty similar to Destiny's in that the core movement foundation is slow and linear, and per-class movement options are kept to very specific contexts (though just by virtue of roster size the number of situations is inherently much higher).

I think by default Bungie wanted it to be that way but with people discovering how to skate, hunters abusing shadestep and even Warlocks having their own mini skating, it goes against that.
I'd say pre patch Twilight Garrison and skating with max agility is as fast as anything in Titanfall. It's clear Bungie doesn't want anything to be overly powerful which is why things always get nerfed. On it's own Destiny isn't that fast but with certain customization it is.
You have to take into consideration that there is also a huge emphasis making classes very different from each other with gear, stats and subclass stuff so it's very different from other fps with classes being static.

 

[Wallach]

I think by default Bungie wanted it to be that way but with people discovering how to skate, hunters abusing shadestep and even Warlocks having their own mini skating, it goes against that.
I'd say pre patch Twilight Garrison and skating with max agility is as fast as anything in Titanfall. It's clear Bungie doesn't want anything to be overly powerful which is why things always get nerfed. On it's own Destiny isn't that fast but with certain customization it is.
You have to take into consideration that there is also a huge emphasis making classes very different from each other with gear, stats and subclass stuff so it's very different from other fps with classes being static.

For sure pre-nerf Garrison was pretty cool, though you could see how much of an outlier it was (and was probably a little frustrating for PvPers given for a while how rare it was on top of that). There's also that element of just being a live service game and having all these small additions and change evolve over time and having to constantly evaluate what qualifies as an outlier and what needs nerfed or fixed which other FPS games don't deal with on that level.

At this point I'm mostly just interested to see what direction they go with Destiny 2, because I think even the casual player base can afford to have more movement options (I think Overwatch actually proves that pretty succinctly with the number of options players have to keep track of per match).

also damn you smug I wanted a bracket reset

 

[direct_quote]

You're comparing a game that could run at 120fps with limited animations and all that stuff even during it's time to a 30fps modern game with a whole lot more stuff to it.

It's funny that Titans are the fastest and Titanfall is arguably the fastest pace modern FPS.

Overwatch looks slow as molasses compared to any modern FPS yet alone Destiny even with it at 60fps. Then again I think it's first to have a grappler/close up based character.

But we're talking about movement. Not necessary speed. Destiny or Bungie games as a whole has that fluid game play to it. That's what they are known for.

NS1 had a lot going for and probably more complexity than most modern shooters. You had real time strategy elements with a commander on marine side, with marines building structures and holding areas of the map. Both Marines and Aliens had tech trees to get weapon upgrades, armor upgrades, and new abilities/classes. Then you had the skill based movement aspect which could be exploited by both classes (more so for Aliens though), and resource management and integral team components. And this was all in 2001 (game didnt really get too balanced until 2003-2004). But NS1 could piggyback off being a mod and being built from an existing engine so not as building from the ground up (with all the physics etc)... So there's more you have to consider when building a game from scratch for the masses to consume..

But I guess NS2 exists which adds on to NS1 but is slow and built on their own proprietary engine and sucks because of that (and also janked up a bunch of other things). But even in NS1 the heavier classes could bunnyhop (for aliens) and the universal b-hopping mechanic for aliens made movement fun on a general level for that team. You had gorge healing class that could bunny hop, Onos could bunny hop (heavier class), Lerk flew so I guess can't bunny hop but the air movement mechanics were enough with flying, fades could bunny hope but mostly used blink (but used bunny hop for moment conservation), and skulks could bunny hop (but also had wall climbing and leap). I kind of wish more games would have universal movement mechanics instead of making them class specific i guess?

And i reckon fastest modern fps would probably be Quake live, but does that really count? That's just repurposed Quake 3 kind of...

 

[Kadey]

Well 2 having no longer to rely on an engine that accommodates last generation should break the shackles.

Anyway the whole point is movement separates the pros from the casuals. No matter the class, weapons, etc, a good player using movement to their advantage is going to dominate regardless of the game. This applies to both FPS, fighters and even certain other games with multiplayer.

Just like Nintendo is never going to release another Melee but more Brawl like Smash games, we won't see FPSs in the ways of old.

 

[CO_Andy]

even Mario Kart had its own high execution movement jank in the form of snaking

unlike fighting games where a high skill ceiling can nurture creativity it did the exact opposite and brought a very restrictive play style

 

[Kalamari]

Titans prolly getting nerfed to hell in D2, Warlocks will be pretty safe though.

 

[direct_quote]

Well 2 having no longer to rely on an engine that accommodates last generation should break the shackles.

Anyway the whole point is movement separates the pros from the casuals. No matter the class, weapons, etc, a good player using movement to their advantage is going to dominate regardless of the game. This applies to both FPS, fighters and even certain other games with multiplayer.

Just like Nintendo is never going to release another Melee but more Brawl like Smash games, we won't see FPSs in the ways of old.

But having high skill ceiling mechanics like skill based movement gives depth and longevity to a game. I just feel there isn't much incentive for developing these mechanics because developers seem to prefer to add more content in form of weapons, skills, maps, etc to spice up a game. And people are generally lazy and don't put much effort into learning all aspects of a game too....

And the games I played it with there was a fragility to the high level mechanics that if you fucked up or did it wrong you'd get killed or be at a disadvantage. Which is kind of like going for that 1 frame link and then dropping it and getting punished. There was an advantage for doing it right, but also a disadvantage for doing it wrong. So it kind of added an excitement to using these mechanics in battle (other than using them to get across the map faster of course). Like you would get a "fuck yah" moment when you did it right (like bdropping people in ns1). That same feeling is diminished for me in modern shooters even if I go on a kill spree or get some sick shots off. Its like those moments happen in most fpses, but having something unique to a fps that is hard to pull off feels that much more satisfying to do.

Obviously by learning the mechanic of skill based movement you zip around map faster, but learning to use it correctly in combat encounters (and not fucking up) was another skill entirely. And people could still play the game without that, never was an issue for me for being above other players with it. I just like what extra level of depth it added to encounters, beyond people just running into each other or taking cover, etc... And also something to always be improving and learning upon besides aim (and something that was fun to learn and expand upon).

 

[Karsticles]

But...you play marvel tho.....

The movement is even more janky in top play since everyone crouchdashes.

It happens so fast I can't even pay attention to the animations in Marvel, lol. I think it looks a little goofy, but not anywhere near Tekken jank. A few characters like Wesker actually look badass while wavedashing. It would be better if MvCi just gave everyone a run - runs are great.

Then you don't have to deal with characters that have slower wavedashes than non-wavedashes... -_-

 

[Professor Beef]

even Mario Kart had its own high execution movement jank in the form of snaking

unlike fighting games where a high skill ceiling can nurture creativity it did the exact opposite and brought a very restrictive play style

Snaking was so easy too, bunch of babies had to ruin it by complaining

 

[Kadey]

But having high skill ceiling mechanics like skill based movement gives depth and longevity to a game. I just feel there isn't much incentive for developing these mechanics because developers seem to prefer to add more content in form of weapons, skills, maps, etc to spice up a game. And people are generally lazy and don't put much effort into learning all aspects of a game too....

And the games I played it with there was a fragility to the high level mechanics that if you fucked up or did it wrong you'd get killed or be at a disadvantage. Which is kind of like going for that 1 frame link and then dropping it and getting punished. There was an advantage for doing it right, but also a disadvantage for doing it wrong. So it kind of added an excitement to using these mechanics in battle (other than using them to get across the map faster of course). Like you would get a "fuck yah" moment when you did it right (like bdropping people in ns1). That same feeling is diminished for me in modern shooters even if I go on a kill spree or get some sick shots off. Its like those moments happen in most fpses, but having something unique to a fps that is hard to pull off feels that much more satisfying to do.

Obviously by learning the mechanic of skill based movement you zip around map faster, but learning to use it correctly in combat encounters (and not fucking up) was another skill entirely. And people could still play the game without that, never was an issue for me for being above other players with it. I just like what extra level of depth it added to encounters, beyond people just running into each other or taking cover, etc... And also something to always be improving and learning upon besides aim (and something that was fun to learn and expand upon).

I disagree. Faster or faster paced doesn't mean less skills involved. Same thing applies to many games. Like VF isn't less skilled than say DOA because the latter is faster. Like I don't think Overwatch is less skilled than COD, etc because it is much slower. It just takes different skills.

I had many situations in Destiny where I had to do something basically super frame perfect with jumping and shooting.

For example this gif. Person activated super, technically I should be dead. But I jumped in the air and sniped him. If I fell I would be dead. And if I were using another class I would probably be dead too. Warlocks float, and hunters have a fast normal jump like most standard jumps but titans get that high fast boost. If I didn't get a head shot I would be dead. If I used any other gun I would be dead. The sniper rifle was the only thing strong enough to kill that super in one hit. But I had only one chance to take that shot.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Snaking was so easy too, bunch of babies had to ruin it by complaining

The Nintendo way

 

[Dahbomb]

It happens so fast I can't even pay attention to the animations in Marvel, lol. I think it looks a little goofy, but not anywhere near Tekken jank. A few characters like Wesker actually look badass while wavedashing. It would be better if MvCi just gave everyone a run - runs are great.

Then you don't have to deal with characters that have slower wavedashes than non-wavedashes... -_-

Then instead we will just have characters who can run better than others.

I am not opposed to having run in a Marvel game though. But I think having wave dash alongside is also needed for that greater degree of control over your movement.