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[SloaneRisette]

Yea, I think that hurts my soul even more.

I would've hoped that current gen would mean the potential for better netcode

I dunno if they just don't care still or they're being hampered by last gen but, damn

 

[shaowebb]

All I'm saying about patches is that essentially folks get hungry for something more and new to play in a game they love. If you patch it too quickly you dont' even let them finish enjoying what they got before you throw it away on them.

Patches can make a game great and did make NRS games better...but they did them too often and to soon between each patch. Give a game several months to mature and then make the notes for a patch. Its okay to hotfix glitches and infinites though.Those prevent you from playing a game. However the rest is just meta and that is to be contested and adapted to more than just patched until folks stop yelling...often times voices die down because their are less people staying around to talk about it.

I just hope their careful this time is all I'm saying.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Would you prefer Sub - Zeroed then? Patches can be good though like you stated with Injustice being a MUCH better game now than it was...however frequent patching can also kill a scene regardless of whether or not the final patch makes the game great. A lot of folks complained with how many patches hit IGAU. Heck SFxTekken eventually became pretty fun and decent too but it just had too much to deal with including a bunch of patches being a big one.

This is why I say give the game (barring glitches or infinites) a good 4 or 5 months before patch notes begin. It just can't develop otherwise.

A lot of folks complain no matter what. So NRS do what they think is best and in the past two games it worked out well.

Let's take Deathstroke. There is this mentality he was overly nerfed. He was "fine" and 6 months of play would have made his zoning fine. When he was nerfed it was said NRS screwed up and he was now crap. 2 years later it's widely accepted he is a top 10 character. The devs were right all along. Waiting was the wrong call.

 

[call_kotaku]

The approach NRS does is how most other genres do it. Fighting games to me aren't some magical unicorn that needs to be different.

As for the netcode, what the FGC want for MK doesn't matter- simply put, the game sells too well among casuals, so they'll always focus on the casual stuff. Only smaller games and Tekken care about netcode- and Tekken is probably due to Harada. I'll probably play through story mode a bit, spam online with local friends, never enter a tourney for this, and just go back to KOF and SF.

My gut says SFV will care, because they're going to want to do to do online esports, and that requires solid netcode.

NRS patching for MK9 and Injustice was way more kneejerk than anything I'm aware of for a well-known developer in any genre. Blizzard/Riot/Valve are more than willing to let overpowered stuff rock for months or years just in case players figure out something that beats it, and you only see rapid fire patching for games in beta. I feel like more often than not these companies patch when the meta gets stale, rather than when the game feels imbalanced (one can lead to the other).

I feel like NRS knows this by now and won't do anything rash unless it's a gamebreaking issue.

A lot of folks complain no matter what. So NRS do what they think is best and in the past two games it worked out well.

Let's take Deathstroke. There is this mentality he was overly nerfed. He was "fine" and 6 months of play would have made his zoning fine. When he was nerfed it was said NRS screwed up and he was now crap. 2 years later it's widely accepted he is a top 10 character. The devs were right all along. Waiting was the wrong call.

Wouldn't waiting 6 months for the community to figure out every facet of his character before nerfing him have been better than nerfing him immediately and having specialists figure him out over the course of 2 years?

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

All I'm saying about patches is that essentially folks get hungry for something more and new to play in a game they love. If you patch it too quickly you dont' even let them finish enjoying what they got before you throw it away on them.

Patches can make a game great and did make NRS games better...but they did them too often and to soon between each patch. Give a game several months to mature and then make the notes for a patch. Its okay to hotfix glitches and infinites though.Those prevent you from playing a game. However the rest is just meta and that is to be contested and adapted to more than just patched until folks stop yelling...often times voices die down because their are less people staying around to talk about it.

I just hope their careful this time is all I'm saying.

I main Catwoman. When Injustice first came out Catwoman did not have f+1 as an overhead. Aquaman's Scoop was safe, his trait lasted longer and had less cool down. It's not an exaggeration to say Catwoman vs. Aquaman was likely a 2-8 match up. Green Lantern is another example. Her Feline Evade was slower and she could not interrupt his b+1,3. He completely dominated her in the neutral game. That buff to her made the match bearable. It was most likely a 3-7 match up pre patches. Should I have just waited? My run in 2014 with Catwoman could have easily never happened in your scenario. They didn't wait. They helped her and they toned down the top tier and it made the game better.

 

[shaowebb]

A lot of folks complain no matter what. So NRS do what they think is best and in the past two games it worked out well.

Let's take Deathstroke. There is this mentality he was overly nerfed. He was "fine" and 6 months of play would have made his zoning fine. When he was nerfed it was said NRS screwed up and he was now crap. 2 years later it's widely accepted he is a top 10 character. The devs were right all along. Waiting was the wrong call.

I'd say its largely case by case. I think they were more focused on the concept of whether a fullscreen 50/50 was worth waiting for folks to learn to adapt to or not in Deathstroke's situation. That tool lost them the casual market so they deemed it had to go even though it was fine for the FGC folk. I'd wager that same with Scorpion's teleport...though I feel it got hit too hard.

In the end, I guess you can only do what you think is best and try not to do it too often. NRS made good patches...I just feel they make them too often instead of all at once. It still appears that MK9's tier list is to wide though in spite of their efforts. I wasn't around for the majority of it and only got to learn from my IGAU scene of its legends and cast issues. The Kano thing though was something that was very widespread though...he's universally the bottom guy and prelaunch he was thought OP for some reason. I just brought him up since a parallel was easy to draw their from the stream reactions to Erron Black. as Sonic Fox made him look good.

MKX seems to be from what Sonicfox posted a momentum based games and that a lot of 50/50s exist across the whole cast. Its gonna be footsie tier in that case. If you got the footsies and reads it'll seem fine and if not you may mistake things as OP.

I really wish folks could tell the difference between OP and just good tools though. If you don't make some stuff really good you end up with everything feeling really dull. Having a good tool doesn't make something or someone OP though. I think a lot of folks don't get that.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

I'd say its largely case by case. I think they were more focused on the concept of whether a fullscreen 50/50 was worth waiting for folks to learn to adapt to or not in Deathstroke's situation. That tool lost them the casual market so they deemed it had to go even though it was fine for the FGC folk. I'd wager that same with Scorpion's teleport...though I feel it got hit too hard.

In the end, I guess you can only do what you think is best and try not to do it too often. NRS made good patches...I just feel they make them too often instead of all at once. It still appears that MK9's tier list is to wide though in spite of their efforts.

MKX seems to be from what Sonicfox posted a momentum based games and that a lot of 50/50s exist across the whole cast. Its gonna be footsie tier in that case. If you got the footsies and reads it'll seem fine and if not you may mistake things as OP.

I really wish folks could tell the difference between OP and just good tools though. If you don't make some stuff really good you end up with everything feeling really dull. Having a good tool doesn't make something or someone OP though. I think a lot of folks don't get that.

Deathstroke wasn't fine for the FGC though. His zoning was insane. NRS was right to nerf it.

 

[alstein]

I think why Riot/Valve patch slower is because their games have bans- that gives them a bit more time to figure things out. They also have team play.

The nature of fighting games doesn't allow for that because you can't ban chars as easily as you can in a MOBA, and folks can't be carried to wins by teammates.

I will not be surprised if the SFV beta does NRS-speed patching.

 

[shaowebb]

Deathstroke wasn't fine for the FGC though. His zoning was insane. NRS was right to nerf it.

I blocked it and I played Bane before he even had a dash :/

It meant playing patient and not resorting to jumps. Admittedly my Green Arrow was fucked though. You had to learn your poke ranges and Deathstrokes pokes well.

 

[Dahbomb]

Riot/Valve games used to get patched very frequently but now since their balance has reached a razor's edge point where just doing a few number changes can move a character from mid tier to top tier they don't do as many big balance patches per year as they used to.

When DOTA 1 was in its infancy patch changes were so common that within a year you could be playing a completely different game balance wise.

These games now receive slower patches (and by fighting game standards it's still quick) because they are more settled in terms of what's good and what works.


And SFV beta has to do very fast balance changes... they don't have enough time to wait for characters to pan out.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

I blocked it and I played Bane before he even had a dash :/

It meant playing patient and not resorting to jumps.

Playing patient and blocking meant you were eating huge chip damage. They did like 5% chip. That was part of the problem. He basically had Raven's trait at all times.

Let's be real. People think DS was overly nerfed because DS players outside Slips and Aris weren't any good. People didn't see how strong his footsies were. He is now generally accepted to be a great character. If he still had his zoning he would be insane, which he was. DS is an example of good nerfing. NRS understood the character better than the community.

 

[FourMyle]

Watching a bison match is about as fun as playing against him. Just absolutely horrible design. Here's to hoping he isn't so awful in SFV.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Kano in vanilla MK9 was terrible. He had no 50/50 and up ball was a roll up ball punish. He was patched to have a mid be a low so he had a 50/50 and his Up Ball became safer. It was only -7 though so it was insanely difficult to punish and most characters couldn't get much. That was quickly changed to be somewhere in the middle, not a ball state punish but not virtually safe. The knives were also slowed down. So overall he was better than he was when the game first came out.

 

[Dahbomb]

Developers generally get these patches/balance changes right but the community is always going to remember the few times they fucked up.

For every Sentinel fuck up there are like 20 other changes made to the game that made it better.

For every wrongful Dee Jay change, about 30 other changes were made that made USF4 more balanced than the previous iteration.


MKX is going to be fine as is SFV in terms of balance in the long run (on release dates both games are going to have crazy top tiers and low tiers). And in SFV's case it's going to be an ongoing process... character balance is going to differ from EVO to EVO (just like it has for SF4 for the past 2-3 EVOs). This is just how fighting games will be in the future.

 

[Tripon]

People want balance patches and then complain about them. Its just human nature.

 

[The Light]

I agree that NRS patched mk9 quickly, but in the end those patches helped MK9 greatly and could've used one final patch. I don't get the injustice patch complaints as the only time I think NRS messed up was with scorpion nerfs. Other than that I didn't feel they were any kneejerk patches. Look how long they let superman and black adam rock.

 

[shaowebb]

Playing patient and blocking meant you were eating huge chip damage. They did like 5% chip. That was part of the problem. He basically had Raven's trait at all times.

Let's be real. People think DS was overly nerfed because DS players outside Slips and Aris weren't any good. People didn't see how strong his footsies were. He is now generally accepted to be a great character. If he still had his zoning he would be insane, which he was. DS is an example of good nerfing. NRS understood the character better than the community.

Not disagreeing with any of this. I did eat huge chip to get what I earned and they didn't bother to learn the whole character while he had that. As I said they make good patches and its case by case...but we had around 6 patches not including hotfixes and we did see complaints that folks kept having the game change right as they were relearning it.

I feel that you can patch too often and too soon between patches and that if you do that then it will lose some folks in the shuffle. I stand by my statement...4 to 5 months barring infinites or glitches. There were case by case things with Deathstroke and Scorpion...I can't really know if such things will occur in MKX or not. If they do...judgment call based on the online traffic and sales should dictate whether to break the 4 to 5 month thing I stated.

If their is no singular focal issue like the infamous teleport or Stroke guns though to lead into such judgment call patches though I say they should strongly strive for the 4 to 5 month thing. It'd create more excitement for the patches when they do come if nothing else which would mean at the 4 to 5 month mark you have a means to spike new interest in the game to keep it out there in market headlines.

Its just how I feel on the matter. Its not just about making changes...its about respecting the amount of time it takes folks to relearn a meta after changes that also comes into play.

Kano in vanilla MK9 was terrible. He had no 50/50 and up ball was a roll up ball punish. He was patched to have a mid be a low so he had a 50/50 and his Up Ball became safer. It was only -7 though so it was insanely difficult to punish and most characters couldn't get much. That was quickly changed to be somewhere in the middle, not a ball state punish but not virtually safe. The knives were also slowed down. So overall he was better than he was when the game first came out.

Thanks for clarifying this. Was he stronger before launch than the version that he launched in though? I'm not making up the "kano tier" stuff. I've heard it from my scene and all over the TYM boards. Did folks just not know the game or was he legit better in builds prior to launch? Folks certainly state as if he was great prior to launch and griped about and that after launch he was trash and as stated I wasn't around to live the history of MK9...I've largely had to read about it as I lived the IGAU scene.

 

[Skilletor]

People want balance patches and then complain about them. Its just human nature.

Yep, must be the same people.

 

[Dahbomb]

This is precisely why every fighting game needs to have a beta before being released officially.

 

[Anne]

I mean, I guess if games are going to have only 1-2 years of a competitive lifetime (with most of those tournaments being crammed into half a year) you might as well patch it every other week so people have a chance.

 

[Passive Assassin]

lol ... pls fix abel's u1 in the corner.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Krey wins the trip to Evo

 

[Tripon]

Yep, must be the same people.

Nah, same pool of players, maybe.

 

[Skilletor]

Nah, same pool of players, maybe.

In that they're all playing fighting games, maybe. Your dismissive statment totally ignores what most here are talking about.

Nothing wrong with patches. My opinion is that NRS does them far too often.

 

[mbpm1]

Sad for Hiro, but Kreymore played smart

 

[sixteen-bit]

OFL Nick with the self-deprecating blowup

 

[Tik-Tok]

Is it wrong that I wish the new MK was a new Injustice instead?

Also spring fighter just ended so what can I watch now?

 

[Tripon]

In that they're all playing fighting games, maybe. Your dismissive statment totally ignores what most here are talking about.

Nothing wrong with patches. My opinion is that NRS does them far too often.

There is nothing wrong with patches. And maybe I am dismissing what most people are saying Here, but its always been my experience that people again and again think a patch will solve their character problem when in reality, its the person skill that is hampering them.

Eh, when I say it is the same pool of players, I meant that some players look at patching as their answers and some players look at the new patch as a problem and sometimes they are the same players. *shrug* feel free to disagree.

 

[Lemstar]

Also spring fighter just ended so what can I watch now?

god of netplay on uniel http://www.twitch.tv/thebrett

 

[alstein]

Watching a bison match is about as fun as playing against him. Just absolutely horrible design. Here's to hoping he isn't so awful in SFV.

There are worse chars to watch, most of your setplay/execution-heavy chars are boring to watch.

 

[call_kotaku]

I mean, I guess if games are going to have only 1-2 years of a competitive lifetime (with most of those tournaments being crammed into half a year) you might as well patch it every other week so people have a chance.

I think it's better if the players feel in charge of the meta rather than the developers, it seems unhealthy for the community to have the impression that anything considered strong within the first 6 months is guaranteed to go away.

Has balance ever been the thing that killed a game besides DC vs MK or straight up kusoge games? I'm pretty sure there are examples but I can't think of any at the moment.

 

[toddhunter]

UMVC3 didn't get patched and it is going as strong as ever.

 

[Anne]

I think it's better if the players feel in charge of the meta rather than the developers, it seems unhealthy for the community to have the impression that anything considered strong within the first 6 months is guaranteed to go away.

Has balance ever been the thing that killed a game besides DC vs MK or straight up kusoge games? I'm pretty sure there are examples but I can't think of any at the moment.

I was being sarcastic based on previous comments.

To answer your question I can't think of any recently.

 

[alstein]

I think it's better if the players feel in charge of the meta rather than the developers, it seems unhealthy for the community to have the impression that anything considered strong within the first 6 months is guaranteed to go away.

Has balance ever been the thing that killed a game besides DC vs MK or straight up kusoge games? I'm pretty sure there are examples but I can't think of any at the moment.

Tekken 4 is the most famous example (JFLS), also KOF03, I'd argue SC5, VF5R, Blazblue orignial?

and none of those games were Kuso in Japan

UMVC3 didn't get patched and it is going as strong as ever.

I wouldn't say that- the number of serious players of the game dropped heavily.

 

[Tripon]

PlayStation All Star battle Royale?

 

[BadWolf]

PlayStation All Star battle Royale?

That would have failed regardless of balance.

 

[Marz]

Good Bison play is really fun to watch IMO.

 

[SolarKnight]

UMVC3 didn't get patched and it is going as strong as ever.

Strong yes, but strong as ever? Pretty sure that must be factually false if we go by amount of people playing.

 

[mbpm1]

Good Bison play is really fun to watch IMO.

Agree

 

[Dahbomb]

Tekken 4 died pretty damn fast due to gross balance. T4 Jin JFLS should not have existed in the game.

Similar case as in Brawl, people went back to TTT1. Though T4 wasn't a bad game minus some infinites, stage elevations and the aforementioned balance issue. Stage problems could've been sorted out by just banning stages but there wasn't much to do about Jin aside banning him. But if you banned him then Steve became S tier and so on.

Game was a miss that could've been a lot better with just a single patch.

 

[zlatko]

Watched the archives of Fatal 8, and I loved what I saw for each character played. Really dug Scorpion's variations.

Also...wow this game is ridiculously good looking.

Can't wait for Tuesday. If the netcode is not KoF13 bad I can live...I play USF4 on PC which is garbage tier, and so if this is that or better I'll live.

 

[Krackatoa]

What is more sad is that I wish for GFWL SF4 quality netcode.

I'd be happy to have that back.

GFWL netcode is the same as the Steamworks netcode.

You want GFWL matchmaking. Steamworks matchmaking is butts for a number of reasons (New client post patch has been working well).

I miss being able to set system region locale without doing some spooky VPN shit. Canadian connections get murked by region filters (I'm right next to New York, don't filter me outta East Coast US connections pls)

 

[BakedYams]

The netcode for SF4 PC has actually been pretty good, I haven't been getting laggy matches, there are dips in frame rate which really throw me off like 1 out of every 10 matches. I've probably been fortunate from the few times I've played.

Yep, must be the same people.

The famous vocal minority.

UMVC3 didn't get patched and it is going as strong as ever.

I wish that was the case, oddly enough, each time I'm in the area for locals, more people start branching out to learn Marvel/Melee. Maybe its just a bunch of coincidences but it wouldn't be surprising if knowledgeable players are looking to get their hands on other fighting games. Reason I don't mention Xrd or MKX is cause how I see it

Spoiler

(barely seen anything lol so this is a shot in the dark)

, it'll eventually boil down to the hardcore players who religiously play it and enjoy anime/NRS games. I don't find them too player friendly once a lot of the tech/tier list have been somewhat solidified in the meta for the game

Spoiler

(even though there is probably more room for growth in a lot of games)

. Even though this can be argued for Marvel and Melee, they are Marvel and Melee, somewhat exceptions to the list of games that are a little more friendly to play

Spoiler

(Xrd changed that with its tutorial but its still a long way to climb up the hill of complexity to learn the game)

, including SF4.

 

[Kadey]

Topanga or rather Japan as a whole needs a legit streamer who will at least do streams on par with Bifu.

Luffy saying Bonchan got lucky at Red Bull kumite.

 

[sqwarlock]

After a long hiatus I finally picked up USFIV for PC. I've dusted off the stick and started to get a feel back for the game. I'm super rusty, but I'm looking forward to getting back up to a skill level decent enough to go online with.

 

[Mr. X]

Sonic Fox too stronk. Able to fine that cheap shit super quick.

Can we stop BSing around now about non-rollback netcode? MK gonna sell like gangbusters no matter what.

 

[hitsugi]

so basically players that are good at prior NRS games are good at MKX?

 

[Tripon]

After a long hiatus I finally picked up USFIV for PC. I've dusted off the stick and started to get a feel back for the game. I'm super rusty, but I'm looking forward to getting back up to a skill level decent enough to go online with.

Sigh. I really want to pick this up for PS4 because I need games for it. But Capcom is being stupid with the release date.

 

[vulva]

so basically players that are good at prior NRS games are good at MKX?

based on this day -3 tournament of one day of competitive play?


yes

 

[Mr. X]

so basically players that are good at prior NRS games are good at MKX?

More like people good at fighting games are good at new fighting games and anyone thinking everyone starts on the same foot for a new game lives in a fantasy,