www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme is doing NCR. (Toddhunter should really update the NCR OP with it).
If you want to watch both, use: www.multitwitch.tv/meleeitonme/vgbootcamp
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Fighting Games Weekly | April 14-20 | Some Permutation of "Daigo is Da Bess"
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme is doing NCR. (Toddhunter should really update the NCR OP with it).
If you want to watch both, use: www.multitwitch.tv/meleeitonme/vgbootcamp
DryEyeRelief
Member
Nothing is conclusive but I tend to pay more attention to commentary regarding the game overall, "instead of x character is top 5." because those conclusions are made in a vacuum.
Then, it would say shipped, not sold, or at least news articles would point out the difference. In either case, the game didn't get a price drop for a long while at retailers so I'm thinking it sold pretty well. The sold number should definitely be over 1.5 million if not at 2 million now.
I also don't want to be in a position where I'm supporting game sales. TTT2 did, in fact, perform atrociously in comparison to previous Tekken titles. But by itself, without any comparisons being made, it did fine. I'm sure Namco is pretty happy with the investment in TTT2 seeing as it's still being played in arcades and is a continuing source of revenue.
Are we really going to have shipped vs sold arguments here?
3D fighting game sales are on a decline, whether you take shipped or sold to consumer numbers. You could probably say the same for 2D games but until we get SFV, MK10 or MVC4 it's hard to say where they are at right now.
I didn't include Smash because it's in a peculiar position.
3D fighting game sales are on a decline, whether you take shipped or sold to consumer numbers. You could probably say the same for 2D games but until we get SFV, MK10 or MVC4 it's hard to say where they are at right now.
I didn't include Smash because it's in a peculiar position.
I'm no developer, but I really disagree with the statement about how things like character complexity and stage interactivity are functionally the same in 2D and 3D fighters. 3D fighting games have so many more options that a designer must accommodate for. Also, the stages play a huge role in the gameplay, Not at all in 2D fighters (outside Smash/PSABR).
No, they're reporting an accurate statement.
The company sold the game, it doesn't matter if it was to retailers or consumers, it was a sold copy.
Let me do an easy comparison.
Namco Bandai sold 550k (ignore the million, it's actually 10,000) copies of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure All Star Battle and 630k copies of God Eate 2.
However, sales to consumers were 469k and 536k respectively.
Companies have no incentive to report sales to consumers unless it would greatly benefit them (as is the case with Sony right now).
SquirrelSoup
Member
They also reused a ton of assets for Tekken Revolution. Don't know how much money that made them in the end but it had at least a pretty big number of downloads.
That's one way they can try to get more profit out of the investment i guess.
That's one way they can try to get more profit out of the investment i guess.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. But anyway, I wouldn't say it bombed hard. Read: Reasons in my previous post.
I wouldn't exactly call Injustice's stage items to be complex stage interactivity but that's just me. Injustice is not a good comparison at all when you have stuff like this (one of the many examples of stage interactivity) that you have to balance a game around.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Kanchou in 720p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfdP72J-hFg
also some other Faust faces
http://matome.naver.jp/odai/2139458228194077801
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfdP72J-hFg
also some other Faust faces
http://matome.naver.jp/odai/2139458228194077801
So you think balancing a 3D game around having a wall/corner is more complicated for development than doing the same with intractable background objects in 2.5D game? Agree to disagree, then.
ArclightBorealis
Member
Just what I needed to start the morning.
ArclightBorealis
Member
Ramlethal's look of confusion when getting Kanchou'd is just too hilarious. The Duke Togo faces are great, too.
I know I'm planning already to play as May and Slayer, but I might also check out Faust as well. So fucking weird.
I know I'm planning already to play as May and Slayer, but I might also check out Faust as well. So fucking weird.
It's not just about having a wall. It's about how you're using the 3 dimensional space to your advantage and manipulating the environment to create angles and new scenarios and situations for repositioning characters. There won't be any "angled" hit in a 2D or 2.5D stage environment. I don't see (haven't so far seen) Injustice being nearly as complex with its stage interaction.
Just to give another example. I don't think this level of stage interaction is possible in a 2D fighter given how angled everything can be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGb3tTrzlTs#t=13m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGb3tTrzlTs#t=14m15s
But yeah, agree to disagree.
Its just collision, man. You perceive the the ground planes (X and Y) as creating 'angled' hits, but its no different than using the Y and Z planes for gameplay and having things hit at angles from the sky. You can use 3D collision systems in 2.5D games, too. I think you've just decided that because a character is a allowed to move on the X plane that its vastly more complicated to develop. It isn't.
When a character is hit, he goes into a reaction state. He can be hit again by attacks or projectiles, and in Tekken, he can be hit by the wall which changes his reaction state. Its just another feature, its part of the design and the budget. I recommend grabbing Unity or Unreal 4 and trying some of this stuff for yourself.
Edit: Please don't confuse "I haven't seen this done" with "this isn't possible".
What you've linked is, again, simply the character colliding with the wall triggering a new reaction state. It is extremely possible in a 2D or 2.5D game.Edit: Please don't confuse "I haven't seen this done" with "this isn't possible".
Couldn't you say it has already been done with things like wall bounces?
Sure. You put the opponent in a reaction state that has a few of its own parameters, including detection for when it hits the edge of the screen/stage, which then triggers another hit reaction. Its not difficult at all.
MiniBossBattle
Member
As someone that had to deal with collision, level mesh and props/models, this talk makes me happy.
direct_quote
Member
People say game is going to be about zoning, but red focus to get in + hit confirm into red focus FADC for massive damage... And T. Hawk buffs right guys?
There's a KOF high roller's tournament today at Next Level with $25 entry fee, check it out at 4:30pm EST.
https://www.facebook.com/events/646155505446543/?ref_dashboard_filter=upcoming
Stream link:
http://www.twitch.tv/radioinfluencedotcom
https://www.facebook.com/events/646155505446543/?ref_dashboard_filter=upcoming
Stream link:
http://www.twitch.tv/radioinfluencedotcom
Yo Abate's Luigi is RNGesus incarnate. :lol
#misfires
Of course fucking I-No would get down like that. Kappa
I think I'm going all in on Ramenthal until Baiken or Jam come along.
ipitydatfu
Member
daigo turned heel?
CountBlack
Member
Cammy, Viper, Cammy, Cammy, Makoto, Viper, Cammy, Makoto, Viper, Viper
wrong thread, still relevant.
wrong thread, still relevant.
Its just collision, man. You perceive the the ground planes (X and Y) as creating 'angled' hits, but its no different than using the Y and Z planes for gameplay and having things hit at angles from the sky. You can use 3D collision systems in 2.5D games, too. I think you've just decided that because a character is a allowed to move on the X plane that its vastly more complicated to develop. It isn't.
When a character is hit, he goes into a reaction state. He can be hit again by attacks or projectiles, and in Tekken, he can be hit by the wall which changes his reaction state. Its just another feature, its part of the design and the budget. I recommend grabbing Unity or Unreal 4 and trying some of this stuff for yourself.
Edit: Please don't confuse "I haven't seen this done" with "this isn't possible".
I"m not a dev so I'm failing to understand how angled hits would work in a 2D or 2.5D environment. But you have more experience so I'll let it be.
I don't think wall bouncing is the same as the concepts I've shown in the video so I don't consider those comparable.
Rebel Up today! Here is what me and Numakie will be doing...
Stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/numakie
Games:
Random Stuff - 4pm PDT / 7pm EDT
Vampire Savior (UD-CPS2) - 6:30pm PDT / 9:30pm EDT
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage for the Future (PS3) - 8:00pm PDT / 11pm EDT
Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code (PC) - 9:30pm PDT / 12:30pm EDT
Stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/numakie
Games:
Random Stuff - 4pm PDT / 7pm EDT
Vampire Savior (UD-CPS2) - 6:30pm PDT / 9:30pm EDT
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage for the Future (PS3) - 8:00pm PDT / 11pm EDT
Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code (PC) - 9:30pm PDT / 12:30pm EDT
toddhunter
Member
For a modern fighting game? It will be a 3D fighter, just restricted to a 2D plane.
Ok
theprodigy
Member
(It's dead lol)
toddhunter
Member
Oh well, the archives might be there or something.
I don't think it's that simplified. There are so many factors to consider ranging from movelists, animations, character varieties, etc.
If you look at a conventional 3D fighter, you have many components that 2D fighting games do not have (and vice-versa). I also cannot see how the cost assessment would be the same. I'm still trying to understand how angled hits can work in a 2D environment. lol It's like how do you get to the side of an opponent?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
It must cost more if there's a whole extra D involved
I don't think there's a vast difference between developing a current-gen 2D and 3D fighter in terms of budgets. The biggest difference IMO is that the absolute floor for a 2D fighter is much lower, as you can make a sprite-based 2D fighter and actually sell it to a playerbase -- a small one, but enough to make the venture profitable, as there are a few boutique developers that only work on 2D fighters (like French Bread, Examu, FK Digital, etc.). Nothing like that exists with 3D fighters, and I doubt there's a market for a fighting game that looked like it came from a past generation.
toddhunter
Member
There is, but then you look at number of characters, number of stages, mechanics like x-factor, stance changes, customised moves, online features, marketing, letting your characters wear hats, a side scrolling beat-em-up mode...
Then you have to think do you have a 2D animator sitting there doing nothing or do you need to hire one? If you are an indie or small team, you might have a gun 3D guy but nobody who can program menus properly.
Basically the more stuff you pack in, the more it is going to cost and that isn't really tied to being 2D or 3D. There are just too many variables to say one is going to be easier than the other. It'll just change with every game and every studio and what staff they have and what deals they have for things like licensing engines and tools.
And this is even before you account for actual quality.
Not to mention when you start having games with re-used assets from previous games.
It's not like Namco is making Paul's Death Fist animation from scratch for each Tekken game.
And MVC2 didn't have a huge budget despite it having 56 characters... most of those characters were literally just copy/pasted in.
So there are many factors going into development and budget.
It's not like Namco is making Paul's Death Fist animation from scratch for each Tekken game.
And MVC2 didn't have a huge budget despite it having 56 characters... most of those characters were literally just copy/pasted in.
So there are many factors going into development and budget.
toddhunter
Member
Yeah good point.
Smooth Operator
Member
I'm so lost with I-No. I really want to play her, but i can't even do her bnbs..
Good 2D is not necessarily cheaper or faster to produce than good 3D. In fact, the more animations your character has, the more this lands in 3D's favor.
If you are the guy sitting there unable to figure out why "angled hits" seem more complicated to you while everyone else is saying otherwise, your best bet is to just try to make a game. You'll learn a lot!
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
If you can't do her FRC's then I recommend just waiting til Xrd to play her. If you are really serious about learning her get those down first
"God's Beard!"
Member
I didnt know assigning select to an extra button was a measure of skill.
"God's Beard!"
Member
That every vega player can hit one frame jab links consistently without an extra button?
It is hard at first, but the more you practice, the more automatic it all gets. It took me from the XBL release of AC to the Japanese PSN release of +R to really get it down, but now my hands just work on their own and now I rarely ever drop FRC's.
Keep trying to learn the 6FRC6 after 6P-5H tk.HCL first. It opens a lot of doors on its own, and is substantially easier than her other FRC stuff. You'll need vary the tiger-knee timing and follow ups depending on the other character's weight and hurtbox, but it's fundamentally universal in application.
After that, work on 2S-5H tk.HCL 6FRC6 on the tall-standing characters. It's just slightly tighter than the above, but will open up a more-damaging low route on half the cast, as you get more comfortable with the FRC airdash timing. Then you can start to get into the jump-install HCL combos.
Also, learn how different characters work with P.Dive loops in the corner. Easiest way to start is to start is to pick an opponent, push them to the corner and then try out the following variations on them:
6P-5H jc. j.H xx P.Dive, 66 (j.S)-j.H xx P.Dive, 66 (j.S)-j.H xx K.Dive/[P.Dive, K.Dive]
6P-5H sjc. j.S-H xx P.Dive, etc...
6P-c.S sjc. j.S-H xx P.Dive, etc...
This is just to learn how characters react in the air. After those, try each of the above after an additional hit (gattling from 2K or link from dash j.S) and observe how the opponent's hitbox reacts to the additional pushback in the air. Then try it again following two hits, etc... until you get a feel for how each character gets comboed in the corner. Lightweight's often need you to hold down your dives longer or skip the j.S's after P.Dive's, and a couple characters legs are so stubby in the air that these will only work point-blank (which will never happen in a real match).
Even if you can't do the stick motions required for Chemical Love FRC combos yet, the P.Dive links in the corner will get you somewhere, because you can always spend 25% meter on comboing into Force Break Dive into a corner knockdown (for example, 6P-5H tk.FB.Dive > cancel > airdashes > j.H xx K.Dive at its most basic). From there, you can at least mix up between [2K-6P-5H jc j.H xx S.Dive, c.S > P.Dive loop] and [dash j.S, 6P-5H jc j.H xx S.Dive, c.S > P.Dive loop], which is optimal on most of the non-long-legged cast that [...6P-5H jc j.H xx P.Dive...] won't hit on. If that's not even possible for you, a lot of time you can make the corner combos easier by sacrificing a P.Dive loop rep for [j.S djc. j.H xx P.Dive, 66...].
PM me if you want any more I-No execution or combo advice.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I-no is awesome. I played a lot of Guilty Gear along with KOF during my ban.
What? I was talking about the guy who said the 2-frame link was removed because Vega players complained it was too easy and you said i respect that.
How was making the jab link 2 frames bad for anybody?
What? I was talking about the guy who said the 2-frame link was removed because Vega players complained it was too easy and you said i respect that.
How was making the jab link 2 frames bad for anybody?
The original point was why new 3D fighting game IPs do not even exist. Yes, TTT2 has pre-existing animations that it used but that's not the point......whatsoever.
I'm looking at the possibility of creating new franchises. Obviously when you have pre-existing franchises with decades of history, you're going to have stuff you can use and rework.
HD production for a new 3D fighting game vs. HD production for a new 2D fighting game? You have Blazblue, Aquapazza, Skullgirls, and all sorts of other stuff. There is no 3D fighting game equivalent to these games. Why?
Existing series took decades to get to where they are (Tekken, VF, DoA, SC) and to compete with them would require massive budgets, which smaller devs may not have. Alternatively, 2D fighting games have proven to be very viable for small level developers. So that only tells me that there is a cost difference involved between 2D and 3D in making a VIABLE fighter for the market to consume.
Yes, I understand that development budget and time will vary depending on how much content is in the game. That's not something that needs to be explained.
Where I differ is how, certain variables, like stages are considered equally cost heavy for a 2D fighting game, when I do not think they are.
I'm not saying angled hits are complicated. I'm saying I don't understand how they would function in a 2D stage environment. Is there a 2D fighting game that exists that has angled hits or moments where you can get to the side of your opponent and attack or combo from there? Even me trying to ask this question sounds kind of absurd.