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[alstein]

Camera movement? 3D gimmicks? Dying a slow death? What? lol

Folks said 2D were dying the same slow death years ago. I'm not willing to write off 3D yet, but it is in a similar shape to how 2D was at the start of this gen.

Someone is going to have to hit a home run in the next 2 or 3 years. SF4 was that home run for 2D. I don't think the arcade is important in the long-term, because arcades are in decline even in Japan- and I suspect the bottom will fall out sometime sooner rather than later.

The most likely candidate is a really good Soul Calibur game that somehow manages to gave casuals what they want, and is better than SC5 competitively. That's not easy.

BTW who owns the rights to Toshinden now- if any series could get a reboot and do well, I think Toshinden could do it (if handed correctly, like the way KI was handled- I was wrong on KI and will admit it now)

 

[enzo_gt]

Any big events next week before I forget something like NCR again?

 

[Shouta]

Any big events next week before I forget something like NCR again?

Sega Cup, I guess?

NWM the following week.

 

[Westlo]

Hawk living the dream

Time to start learning blanka for online.....

 

[OceanBlue]

Looks like Freedom Yokohama is streaming USF4 again.

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv176709392

Edit: Oh hey, melo, the Makoto player, is trying Poison for USF4. Currently melo vs Yossan.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Looks like Freedom Yokohama is streaming USF4 again.

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv176709392

Edit: Oh hey, melo, the Makoto player, is trying Poison for USF4. Currently melo vs Yossan.

Why is nicovideo live so utterly garbage. There is no way of watching it on android ffs. And VODs are behind a paywall. What am I paying for exactly? 348kb/s broadcasts when Twitch exists? Ugh.

 

[Keits]

I'm not talking about reusing assets. I'll requote from previous page and maybe you can give a better explanation.


I don't see how developing this:

IMAGE REMOVED

is supposed to be any easier than developing this:

IMAGE REMOVED

You seem confused mostly because you can put a pen to paper and make a 2D image right now. Even if it is terrible, and if you have no idea how hard 2D animation that looks good actually is, you are convinced that this is quicker and easier than 3D because you feel like you could do it.

You also seem super confused about game logic, and even though a few of us here have given you really valid explanations, you are struggling to understand. Again, you should grab Unity or Unreal 4, do some tutorials, and put together a simple game. You'll learn a lot.

Details - Drawing one image of a 2D character is extremely easy compared to making a good 3D model of a character. This is why the concept art stage is still always done in 2D. However, drawing 10,000 frames of 2D animation, the traditional way, means starting from scratch every frame. Even if you use flash-techniques to bend and manipulate parts of the image, using keyframe and interpolation/blending techniques, it can still be extremely expensive and tedious and requires extreme levels of training and/or talent.

In 3D, once you have built and rigged (applied a bone structure) to your character model (which is expensive up front), animation is a matter of posing the model like a doll. This is so much quicker and easier than 2D animation, but still requires talent or training. Animations are applied to the rig (the bones), and other characters with similar bones can have animations re-targeted to them, saving a ton of time as well. Making changes to existing animations is also vastly easier, making prototyping less risky.

Everything else you seem concerned about is all just game logic. You need to think in those terms. Why can a 3D fighting game character move around the stage? Well, because he was given a move that lets him sidestep left and one that lets him sidestep right. The stage has collision on it so he doesn't fall through the floor and can't pass the walls. The wall's collision parameters are tagged differently than the floor so that characters can bounce off of them when they are in a hit-state flagged with 'wallsplat'. All of this exists in a 2D fighting game as well, except we've locked the characters to the Y and Z planes. All the same rules, all the logic, is still there.

Lets look at attack reaction states. If the gameplay is 2D and I hit you, I have Y and Z values for how far "away" and "up" I toss your body. If the gameplay is 3D and I hit you, I have X, Y, and Z values for how far "left or right", "away", and "up" I toss your body. Its just an extra value, one that you are probably dealing with as a constant 0 in a 2.5D fighter anyway. Again, the logic is the same, you just might have an extra variable. An extra variable is a feature. Depending on the complexity of this variable (for implementation and balance) the budget will go up. Features = Time = Money.

I also find it offensive that you've compared a clip of 100% finished release assets in a AAA budget game with unfinished sprite work in an indie game.

I feel like the answer as to why there hasn't been any new 3D fighting game IP's is simpler than you'd think- fighting games (both 2D and 3D) are hard and expensive to make, and are a significant risk if you're a developer. 3D fighters are a niche of a niche. Therefore, not as many new 3D fighters.

Bingo.

 

[Conceited]

New Excellent Adventures

 

[SimSimIV]

Does anyone know enough Japanese to translate these 2 tweets? Would be much appreciated!

YHC-餅（日御碕） ‏@yhcmochi82 17m
ディレイスタンディング対策は・・・弱ファイアの弾速が遅いので「どちらでも重ねられる」タイミングがあるんじゃないかな。そこからのテレポは最速起きのタイミングで重ねてディレイなら地上から・・・とかでいいんじゃないかな、今適当に考えたけどｗまあこれからいろいろ出てくるでしょう。
Expand Reply Retweeted Favorite More

YHC-餅（日御碕） ‏@yhcmochi82 17m
中Ｋ。空中ヒット時のダメージが下がったことだけが弱体化で、２段ヒットは単純強化でしょう。セビ対策というよりはアーマー対策。実はゲージ増加量がバカ。もちろんこれだけ振っていても屈中Ｐとかに負けちゃうので他のズームを相手の対処法を考えて振っていくのは面白いかな。
Expand

 

[Busaiku]

Any big events next week before I forget something like NCR again?

You should put those Saturday events back up.
You had them last week!

 

[Zissou]

Does anyone know enough Japanese to translate these 2 tweets? Would be much appreciated!

First one- "As anti delayed wake-up strategy, you might be able to use light yoga fire- as it travels so slowly, it wouldn't matter whether they did delayed wake-up or not... from there you teleport with the timing for normal wake-up, and if they delay you can maybe do something from there. I'm just thinking out loud for now I guess we'll see where we go from here."

Spoiler

spoiler alert- this translation in terrible

 

[SimSimIV]

First one- "As anti delayed wake-up strategy, you might be able to use light yoga fire- as it travels so slowly, it wouldn't matter whether they did delayed wake-up or not... from there you teleport with the timing for normal wake-up, and if they delay you can maybe do something from there. I'm just thinking out loud for now I guess we'll see where we go from here."

Spoiler

spoiler alert- this translation in terrible

Are you joking?! That translation made a LOT of sense! Thanks! You are abut 70% times better than google translate

 

[Zissou]

Does anyone know enough Japanese to translate these 2 tweets? Would be much appreciated!

Second one- "Medium kick. The only thing weaker about this move now is that it does less damage against aerial opponents, but otherwise it hitting twice is definitely better. Rather than thinking of it as an anti-focus attack, it's better to think of it as anti-armor(?). The increased meter build is stupid (?). Of course, just doing medium kick won't always be as good as crouching medium punch, and other long range normals will have to be used depending on the opponent/match-up, so things will be interesting."

Spoiler

spoiler alert- this translation is even worse than my first one

 

[SimSimIV]

Second one- "Medium kick. The only thing weaker about this move now is that it does less damage against aerial opponents, but otherwise it hitting twice is definitely better. Rather than thinking of it as an anti-focus attack, it's better to think of it as anti-armor(?). The increased meter build is stupid (?). Of course, just doing medium kick won't always be as good as crouching medium punch, and other long range normals will have to be used depending on the opponent/match-up, so things will be interesting."

Spoiler

spoiler alert- this translation is even worse than my first one

Thanks a lot bro The first "?" makes very much sense, but the second one is a little unclear as to who builds more meter? Sim with standing mk or the opponent getting ultra meter etc.

Thanks again!

 

[Zissou]

Thanks a lot bro The first "?" makes very much sense, but the second one is a little unclear as to who builds more meter? Sim with standing mk or the opponent getting ultra meter etc.

Thanks again!

Not sure about the second question mark. I did my best as someone who doesn't actually play much SF4. It's tough figuring stuff out if you don't know game or character-specific terminology. Apparently in Japanese they refer to stretchy limb normals as "zoom" moves- who knew!

 

[fubarduck]

Does anyone know enough Japanese to translate these 2 tweets? Would be much appreciated!

YHC-餅（日御碕） ‏@yhcmochi82 17m
中Ｋ。空中ヒット時のダメージが下がったことだけが弱体化で、２段ヒットは単純強化でしょう。セビ対策というよりはアーマー対策。実はゲージ増加量がバカ。もち ろんこれだけ振っていても屈中Ｐとかに負けちゃうので他のズームを相手の対処法を考えて振っていくのは面白いかな。
Expand

Here's my crack at it, I believe he is saying that s.MK will straight-up lose to crouching MPs (like a shoto's crouch MP) rather than saying that Sim's low MP is better in those situations. Could be wrong as I don't use Sim, lol.
--

Regarding MK. The only nerf was to damage when it hits them out of the air, and the fact that it hits twice now is a buff. It's more of an armor counter than it is an FADC counter. Actually the meter gain is ridiculous. Of course, if you spam it it'll lose to low MPs and the like, so I think it'll be interesting to integrate (s.MK) while using your other limbs to deal with opponents.

 

[SimSimIV]

Thank you guys for helping out!

 

[Sayah]

You seem confused mostly because you can put a pen to paper and make a 2D image right now. Even if it is terrible, and if you have no idea how hard 2D animation that looks good actually is, you are convinced that this is quicker and easier than 3D because you feel like you could do it.

I'm not convinced of anything. All I said is that there is a price difference. You said that it's equally cost heavy, and I disagree with that. I don't intend to downplay the difficulty of 2D animation.

You also seem super confused about game logic, and even though a few of us here have given you really valid explanations, you are struggling to understand. Again, you should grab Unity or Unreal 4, do some tutorials, and put together a simple game. You'll learn a lot.

No, actually, almost no one has given much of any real valid explanation. I also don't think you need to speak on others behalf. Just give me what you think.

And I have no time to try out Unity or Unreal 4. Got too many other things going on.

Details - Drawing one image of a 2D character is extremely easy compared to making a good 3D model of a character. This is why the concept art stage is still always done in 2D. However, drawing 10,000 frames of 2D animation, the traditional way, means starting from scratch every frame. Even if you use flash-techniques to bend and manipulate parts of the image, using keyframe and interpolation/blending techniques, it can still be extremely expensive and tedious and requires extreme levels of training and/or talent.

In 3D, once you have built and rigged (applied a bone structure) to your character model (which is expensive up front), animation is a matter of posing the model like a doll. This is so much quicker and easier than 2D animation, but still requires talent or training. Animations are applied to the rig (the bones), and other characters with similar bones can have animations re-targeted to them, saving a ton of time as well. Making changes to existing animations is also vastly easier, making prototyping less risky.

Here you're implying that there is a difference between development of characters in 2D vs. 3D with variances on difficulty of labor. What happened to it's equally cost heavy?

Thanks for the explanation, though.

Everything else you seem concerned about is all just game logic. You need to think in those terms. Why can a 3D fighting game character move around the stage? Well, because he was given a move that lets him sidestep left and one that lets him sidestep right. The stage has collision on it so he doesn't fall through the floor and can't pass the walls. The wall's collision parameters are tagged differently than the floor so that characters can bounce off of them when they are in a hit-state flagged with 'wallsplat'. All of this exists in a 2D fighting game as well, except we've locked the characters to the Y and Z planes. All the same rules, all the logic, is still there.

Lets look at attack reaction states. If the gameplay is 2D and I hit you, I have Y and Z values for how far "away" and "up" I toss your body. If the gameplay is 3D and I hit you, I have X, Y, and Z values for how far "left or right", "away", and "up" I toss your body. Its just an extra value, one that you are probably dealing with as a constant 0 in a 2.5D fighter anyway. Again, the logic is the same, you just might have an extra variable. An extra variable is a feature. Depending on the complexity of this variable (for implementation and balance) the budget will go up. Features = Time = Money.

So the characters are locked on the Y and Z planes in a 2D game. But what happens if you introduce the X plane and the extra variable of left or right hits are introduced into a 2D game? Then it's no longer 2D, it's 3D.

And since features = time = money, 3D fighters do have the extra feature of including angled hits, while 2D fighters are lacking it. So again, I'm seeing a price variance based on the norms of how 2D and 3D fighters are developed.

I also find it offensive that you've compared a clip of 100% finished release assets in a AAA budget game with unfinished sprite work in an indie game.

Errrrr. it's very clear the skullgirls art is incomplete. It was just an example. No need to take it that seriously.

Bingo.

If you look at sales for SCV, SCIV, T6, TTT2, DoA4, DoA5, and VF5, you can see that those sales are regardless higher than what you'll have for stuff like Blazblue, Aquapazza, TvC, . No, no "BINGO."

 

[kirblar]

Nothing anyone says could convince you because you're convinced that you're right.

You're also completely ignorant of the economics/preferences of the arcade scene in Japan and how it affects what games are produced. (And no, we don't have hard sales data, but we can infer a lot from the fact that games continue to be developed and released there combined with the relatively low console-side sales in the region.)

And you do realize Keits literally makes Fighting Games for a living, right?

 

[Keits]

And since features = time = money, 3D fighters do have the extra feature of including angled hits, while 2D fighters are lacking it. So again, I'm seeing a price variance based on the norms of how 2D and 3D fighters are developed.

You can't name any features a 2D fighter has that a 3D one doesn't? Why are you so focused on this one little thing you call "angled hits"?

 

[Sayah]

You can't name any features a 2D fighter has that a 3D one doesn't? Why are you so focused on this one little thing you call "angled hits"?

Of course I can. 3D fighters, for instance, lack a heavy focus on balancing projectiles and chip damage. In traditional 3D fighters, you can't jump over your opponent's character. Well, you can. But it's not what you normally do.

But if you go back how many ever posts, I was only looking at stage creation, which I think is harder in 3D games. And it makes sense for me that stage creation would be more expensive in 3D.

You have bigger stages, more variables like walls, balconies, ring outs. Where as most 2D games have either static backgrounds or pre-fixed animations. There is no movement around the stage or the terrain.

 

[Shouta]

Here you're implying that there is a difference between development of characters in 2D vs. 3D with variances on difficulty of labor. What happened to it's equally cost heavy?

Thanks for the explanation, though.

Because there is a price difference. You do realize that that his explanation is basically all you need to know and that you aren't logically extrapolating conclusions, right?

2D animators are rarer nowadays, so it's likely they cost more to imply than 3D animators. Additionally, 3D animation has techniques that make it easy to animate a model including the aforementioned CAT stuff but also motion-capture technology which you means you don't have to animate each frame individually.

A 2D game does not have the tools for this, they draw each frame individually and this is equally if not more labor intensive than 3D modeling. This labor element is then magnified by the complexity of an image. The more complex a 2D image is, the more time it takes to properly replicate it in each frame of animation. You need more people and more time to do it thus the labor costs increases. While Skullgirls has more animation than most anything, it also lacks the image complexity you can see in a lot of others. Textures, lighting, complex effects for the special moves etc, increase the work necessary per frame despite probably being fewer frames overall. Ryu's arm isn't one flat color during attack, so it intricately replicating that through the entire action accurately and logically is going to put eat up more time for animators.

Basically, do you know why anime generally has fewer frames than western series? It's because the detail in the images and the proportions make it far more time-consuming to get to that level of animation. Even the more fluid anime features use a more simplified style to make it easier to animate. This is why movies like the first Ghost in the Shell or Akira are stiill so impressive today. They are highly detailed, very fluidly animated movies because they had a big budget to do so.

 

[Keits]

Not to mention how fundamentally similar game logic is between a 2D, 2.5D, and 3D fighting game. 3D movement and collision may have been complicated back in the day, but its part of nearly every pre-packaged engine these days and setting it up is a snap. You could grab Unity and have a 3D character fighting in a 3D arena with floor and wall collisions in a day or two if you know what you are doing. It will lack polish, sure, but what I'm trying to say is that the real expense of making a game isn't usually game logic (unless you are being extremely ambitious with AI or procedurally generated content or some other truly new thing).

 

[pixelish]

Any big events next week before I forget something like NCR again?

I think King of New York B League is happening this Saturday.

 

[Malice215]

Dieminion vs Luffy grand final from Gamers Assembly live right now.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ndj3m_live-gamers-assembly-2014-mainstage_videogames

 

[Sayah]

Because there is a price difference. You do realize that that his explanation is basically all you need to know and that you aren't logically extrapolating conclusions, right?

2D animators are rarer nowadays, so it's likely they cost more to imply than 3D animators. Additionally, 3D animation has techniques that make it easy to animate a model including the aforementioned CAT stuff but also motion-capture technology which you means you don't have to animate each frame individually.

A 2D game does not have the tools for this, they draw each frame individually and this is equally if not more labor intensive than 3D modeling. This labor element is then magnified by the complexity of an image. The more complex a 2D image is, the more time it takes to properly replicate it in each frame of animation. You need more people and more time to do it thus the labor costs increases. While Skullgirls has more animation than most anything, it also lacks the image complexity you can see in a lot of others. Textures, lighting, complex effects for the special moves etc, increase the work necessary per frame despite probably being fewer frames overall. Ryu's arm isn't one flat color during attack, so it intricately replicating that through the entire action accurately and logically is going to put eat up more time for animators.

Basically, do you know why anime generally has fewer frames than western series? It's because the detail in the images and the proportions make it far more time-consuming to get to that level of animation. Even the more fluid anime features use a more simplified style to make it easier to animate. This is why movies like the first Ghost in the Shell or Akira are stiill so impressive today. They are highly detailed, very fluidly animated movies because they had a big budget to do so.

I understand all of that. Darkblade's post on the previous page already explained this very well. I'm just saying it contradicts a previous statement of equality. That's all.

EDIT: A bit late, but eh.

I think the major expense factors between 2D and 3D asset development are time and efficiency.

Most original 2D offerings are hand-made pixel art, which takes extra time and effort to create per-frame versus drawing something that is just appropriately scaled, even if 3D model references are heavily used.

Pixel art also gets exponentially more expensive as the target resolution increases.

You also aren't going to be able to throw a large group at a project that is pixel art-driven, because the aggregate level of talent needs to be high or quality suffers. This costs time, which in the end is also money.

Skullgirls is an outlier because their frames aren't pixel art. The cost-per character for SG is relatively cheap because they can handle production in a way similar to how anime is made in general; the core talent produces all the keyframes(plus more depending on the standard of quality) and dozens of outside contractors handle the cleanup/polish.

I don't know for sure about 3D or 2.5D FGs, but I think the primary advantage of having 3D models(outside of possibly re-using animation data) is that the malleability also allows for them to be worked on by large groups with some strong leading direction. Well, that and costumes.

To sum this up, 2D is probably cheaper to develop(especially for smaller groups), but the original standard for 2D(pixel art) is too expensive and time-consuming(especially for larger groups) compared to 3D, which also has more mass appeal, is inherently more flexible asset-wise, and is constantly getting efficiency & visual breakthroughs to look better while being cheaper.

This, IMO is why you saw small to medium core teams still make 2D fighters last gen while only the big boys messed with 2.5/3D.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Any recommendations on a good 360 pad? Like a Saturn one, unless there's a USB converter I can use for mine.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

That Ramlethal intro.

 

[Seasoned Badger]

Dieminion vs Luffy grand final from Gamers Assembly live right now.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ndj3m_live-gamers-assembly-2014-mainstage_videogames

Let's GO LUFFY!! GATEKEEP THAT GUY!!

 

[enzo_gt]

I think King of New York B League is happening this Saturday.

Details?

 

[That Dude John]

That Ramlethal intro.

ewwwwwwwwww lol

 

[alstein]

Let's GO LUFFY!! GATEKEEP THAT GUY!!

Luffy is my favorite player, even if he isn't the best.

 

[Shito]

Dieminion still not winning his flight back!

 

[oneida]

3D fighters are more cooler

that costs $$$

 

[Seasoned Badger]

Yes!! Luffy did it again!! God damn. That Rose Vs Guile match up is a battle of attrition. Every match goes down to the wire but Luffy is just too solid for Dieminion.

edit: SFxT is so unpoplar even the sticks are given away!

 

[pixelish]

Details?

all the details on the fb event page: https://www.facebook.com/events/484043498366804/484105615027259/?notif_t=like

 

[Shouta]

Any recommendations on a good 360 pad? Like a Saturn one, unless there's a USB converter I can use for mine.

The sfxt fightpads more might be similar enough to the Saturn pads for you. Dunno about converters.

 

[Kadey]

It would be harder for me to make an AE costume mod than create a 3d model from the ground up using a certain software and have it animated in certain ways. If it weren't for these tools more than half of these modern games would take far longer to create and may not even exist in the first place.

 

[cj_iwakura]

The sfxt fightpads more might be similar enough to the Saturn pads for you. Dunno about converters.

Sounds workable, as long as the dpad isn't as awful as those other SF pads were. Hopefully it gets me through a match in Evo.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

The 2D/3D argument is still going on?

3D fighters have become less popular this gen for the same reason that Guitar Hero games stopped being popular - they chases the hardcore and the games became bloated, difficult and unfun. And the one mainline fighter that tried to fix this problem came out as an unhyped and rushed mess. (SCV)

 

[sixteen-bit]

Any recommendations on a good 360 pad? Like a Saturn one, unless there's a USB converter I can use for mine.

Closest you're gonna get is the PS2 saturn pad + etokki PS2 -> 360 adapter

They don't, but this works perfectly...

 

[stn]

Any recommendations on where to buy the Saturn pad and the Etokki converter? Thanks!

 

[cj_iwakura]

Closest you're gonna get is the PS2 saturn pad + etokki PS2 -> 360 adapter

Looks a lot better than the MadCatz trash option. That one Shouta recommended looks like the same as their other ones.

 

[atomic moth]

Looks a lot better than the MadCatz trash option. That one Shouta recommended looks like the same as their other ones.

SFxT pads aren't terrible. The buttons stick sometimes, but that's my only complaint. You can't ask for sanwa quality mechanics in that cheap of a price.

 

[oneida]

first time I look at a smash thread and everyone's talking about suckin' dicks

 

[cj_iwakura]

SFxT pads aren't terrible. The buttons stick sometimes, but that's my only complaint. You can't ask for sanwa quality mechanics in that cheap of a price.

It's the dpad I dislike. It's like a tiny flat joystick.

 

[K.Sabot]

first time I look at a smash thread and everyone's talking about suckin' dicks

the strain is real

 

[theprodigy]

first time I look at a smash thread and everyone's talking about suckin' dicks

This needs a tag quote.
(also the post that started it is lolworthy)

 

[quanchu]

the sfxt pads have great dpads but the buttons do stick. i've opened mine up a few times and cleaned the buttons off and put a little wd-40 on the problem areas and havent had any problems since. i've been using them since they came out.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

first time I look at a smash thread and everyone's talking about suckin' dicks

Enzo, you know the next thread title