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Fighting Games Weekly | Aug 18-24 | Fall back, u nerd
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Professor Beef
Banned
I think rather than SF3 vs. SF4 it just needs to be "Parries" and "Mythical fighting game dark age"
The 3 main characters that benefit the most from XF are pretty much designed to be anchor characters.
Vergil's XF time is among the highest in the game, that is clearly an intentional design choice. Strider and Phoenix both do very weak damage out of XF on top of having low health and like Vergil have obscene options when they have meter. This is a classic hallmark of an anchor character.
I would say that characters like Strider and Phoenix are working as intended but Vergil is a bit out of wack. But make no mistake... these characters were designed around XF. Whether people accept the intention addition of these dark characters is another thing entirely though .
Kvo is the yearly tournament series that Kubo and company run out in Japan (iirc it's always been in Osaka during Golden Week). TSB is Team St1ckbug, who is a loose affiliation of ArcSys players in the Northeast and they're involved with a bunch of tournaments (St1ckbug runs GG/BB/P4A at Big E's events, and they also run the TSB tournaments at Next Level). Basically it's a collaborative effort between the two, and an excuse to get a bunch of American anime players out to Japan. It basically comes out to even more anime game hype in a year which looks to have a shit ton of it already.
Honestly? I'm seriously thinking of going, myself. :x
- *meme post*
- Enzo chose the wrong title again smh
- Theorycraft post
- I think "SF vs. Marvel" encompasses a few of those, and happens way more consistently here than SF3 vs. SF4
That'd be the best prize of all.
WesternHeretic
Member
Honestly I think we should just talk about DBZ.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Fuck Gohan and fuck Vegeta and fuck triforce's opinions
C'mon man.......
I'll ask you the same thing I asked Karst. Have you played TTT2? Do you have some understanding of how a tag assault or tag bufferable launchers work?
I have experience playing MvC3 and I can tell you it is every bit as creative as you say it is. But don't discount the other games mechanics. TTT2 is very heavy on team synergy.
From the preset, let me say that literally any team will work in TTT2 (doesn't matter if it's b-tier or s-tier). In contrast, the same can't be said for MvC3. However, despite this balance in team formation, there are many things that you have to take into consideration with your characters.
I choose Anna/Nina, for example. Just to give you an example of how Anna/Nina work together and of team synergy aspects, look at the examples below.
1. Netsu: Anna/Nina have terrible netsu together. They both hate each other. In MvC3 terminology, it's like saying your opponent will have access to x-factor before you because they chose a netsu-friendly or netsu-neutral team. And this is just a small aspect of team synergy.
2. Tag bufferable launchers: These launchers allow you to switch with your character and completely deplete the red/recoverable life of the opponent. Anna/Nina both have A LOT of tag bufferable launchers. However, together, they do not go very well. A lot of Anna's launchers are grounded or they do not leave the opponent high enough in the air or have a delayed startup and prove to be non-useful. In contrast, Nina can fit in TWO tag bufferable launchers with a lot of the other characters thanks to qcf+1. Again, this is just to give an example of how certain characters mesh together and where team synergy plays an important role.
3. Tag Assault - This is the most fun and creative aspect of TTT2 and I consider it to be the best and defining mechanic for fighting games from last gen. When you do a tag assault, your team character comes in and you literally have the entire command list at your disposal to do whichever move. This isn't like a predetermined assist in a combo that you choose at the character select screen.
Nina/Anna have very strong combos together. They are both exceedingly amazing at tag assault fillers and have a huge variety of options. I would place them in Top 5 as far as tag assault fillers go. As a result, they both synergize really well here.
To give another example, you can choose a team like Jaycee/Kuma and make it work but it's probably not a super great idea as both of these characters suck at tag assault fillers and may not jive well together.
NOW, taking this all into consideration, I would like it better if you played TTT2 before saying the team mechanics are not deep enough for your tastes.
As far as your question on damage scaling when switching between characters, it will vary based on what you do. For instance, tag bufferable launchers will completely deplete red life when switching between characters. Alternatively, tag assaults will do the opposite. They will turn all of the lost lifebar into red, recoverable damage.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Anime is the worst.
Karsticles
Member
Is Edea banned?
WesternHeretic
Member
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
The Mr. Satan would be someone who wins tournaments when the people who are actually good don't care/have more important things to do. I don't know who that'd be
Flying High
Member
No Mr. Satan is known to alot of people as the world's strongest player, but for real, he is NOT even near the top of the top, he is like the top of the 99%, but the 1% is like 100000000x times stronger then everyone else, so... he is like Maximilian, or Mike Ross(or Low Tier God)
SousedLouse
Member
The last time we had this discussion it was Daigo, although it's based on appearance instead of power levels.
Add that to the cycle:
- Everything ties back into DBZ
Also, Trunks' jacket is dumb.
No matter which pic I look for, it's the same jokes with Zardon and Mr. Popo.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
- what is a fighting game / why smash is or is not a fighting game
sixteen-bit
Member
nunca desista
Master Milk
Member
I think the real problem is that all those tag options only matter after you've landed a hit and are doing a combo. Having an entire move list as a combo extender doesn't change the fact that it's still just a combo extender.
Mr.Satan was the People's Champ, wasn't he? Shouldn't the choice be obvious?
I've played maybe 3 games, not enough to make conclusions, but I wasn't feeling it, and I don't get that same feeling watching it either. Maybe my opinion will change if I get an extended hands-on, but I've always been pretty whatever about 2v2 games, and a little bit more accepting of ratio system games.
Karsticles
Member
Combos are the least creative/interesting aspect of team mechanics. That's the majority of TTT2 and SFxT's team game.
That's kinda how I was thinking of it.
Deckard Cain
Banned
I suppose you know a way to have assists in a non-air dasher & not make them completely broken then.
You should check out Aquapazza, Vanguard Princess or Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax, then. They make it work by putting the assists on cooldowns far longer than vs. games.
Professor Beef
Banned
No, only Feral Chaos is banned.
sixteen-bit
Member
Combos are an integral part of the gameplay. Why is discussion on tag mechanics disqualified when talking about combos? This is actually part where MvC3 is the least creative. Team combos.
Oh man.......3 games is nothing, lol.
Again, go play some games before you make these statements.
Taken by your hate/dislike for Tekken (and TTT2 by extension) and SFXT, I am almost sure you have played neither one of these games and, yet, are regardless making observations and assessments based on nothing.
I have played all three of SFXT, TTT2, and MvC3 extensively so I feel I am qualified to talk about these games to some extent.
Karsticles
Member
First, you don't have to play the game to be of the opinion that, conceptually, combos are the least creative aspect of a team fighter. It's not a Tekken-based comment, it's a universal comment on fighting games. You don't have a point.
No, I haven't played TTT2 or SFxT. It has nothing to do with the discussion, though. I don't have to eat shit to know it would taste bad. Your claim is the equivalent to me knocking your MvC3 opinions because you hold laughably bad opinions like "point Sentinel is overpowered". It's just not relevant to the discussion.
I don't, but I don't need to.
Yeah of course TTT2's combo system is very creative but that's all it is. The team dynamic does not go past that into the neutral 1v1 battle that is the core element of Tekken. Assists make the 1v1 battle more dynamic where you can have two same characters fighting but the existence of different assists makes it a different match up. That's what these two are arguing and it's what TTT2/SFxT is lacking compared to SG/MVC2/MVC3. It's not a hard concept to grasp and you don't need to have played every tag game for over a 100 hours to realize this.
As far as coming up with assists in a 3D fighter, it's possible but the assists will be very neutered and on a long cooldown plus extremely punishable. It's not like you are going to have assists that shoot out full screen lasers or a giant explosion of electricity that covers the entire Y axis. At that point the assists wouldn't be that interesting so I don't see much of a point in including them. I played some TvC and I could never shake the longer cooldown on assists.
As far as coming up with assists in a 3D fighter, it's possible but the assists will be very neutered and on a long cooldown plus extremely punishable. It's not like you are going to have assists that shoot out full screen lasers or a giant explosion of electricity that covers the entire Y axis. At that point the assists wouldn't be that interesting so I don't see much of a point in including them. I played some TvC and I could never shake the longer cooldown on assists.
As far as I know, this is the logical chain I made:
Has not played TTT2 --> Does not understand how a tag assault works --> Does not know the extent of creativity applied in the team engineering process (through tag bufferable launchers, tag assaults, wall combos, TA mixups, etc).
Yet somehow, forms the conclusion that combos are the least creative aspect of a team game. TTT2 is a slap to this conclusion you've made.
Have you played TTT2?
LOL.
Oh man. No, you definitely need to have played a game before you can talk about its core mechanics and make conclusive judgments.
RockTurtle
Member
this battle is senseless, LISTEN TO MY SONG
Karsticles
Member
To the first paragraph: exactly.
To the second paragraph: side stepping seems like it would render assists overpowered, since you can't necessarily place yourself on the same horizontal field as the assist to attack it. There would also be issues with something like a projectile, and where it would travel. Does it travel to the opponent's current location, or "forward" from the summoning plane? Maybe it could work somehow, but I don't see it.
DryEyeRelief
Member
But I said requires. If a character dies in a tag game, you lose. That gives an entire different weight to the decision to keep them in back recovering life, or risk their safety and push. So there's this huge front character, back character risk management that you have to undergo for the entire match. IIRC, TACs were created to enforce more characters switching but it didn't work out that way. Marvel inherently has linear character roles where characters pretty much die in the order that they're placed.
Also, I just find it hard to accept that the game that treats characters like 33% life dicerolls as a more effective team game. Even in high level Marvel, you see players who are totally carried by their point or anchor characters. I totally remember Rayray shitting on the community saying no one learns Zero/Doom/Dante because it requires you to be good with all three characters. As opposed to TTT2 where people choose clone teams, or SFxT where there was frequent xcopying, all because those games enforced you to be good with your entire team. You argue about assists, but that isn't about team play. That's single character plus
Oh TTT2... I've been hit by so many unblockable setups that can only be done with particular teams. I suck at the game, but holy crap some of the stuff in it is devious. Using specific characters to keep your enemy in place is evil.
Deckard Cain
Banned
Dahbomb seriously? There are lots of other stuff to consider when constructing a Tag team besides just combos, like a characters rage rating, whether a character is good with rage or not, & whether a character has more neutral tag in options.
Pretty sure that's why you don't see two Mishimas played together very often.
WesternHeretic
Member
Sorry everyone I tried to turn it into DBZ talk, but it's back to that ttt2/umvc3 I don't even know crap talk.
Karsticles
Member
How is it hard to understand that a game that allows team members to affect the neutral, combos, and various other situations (mechanics like DHCs, TACs, and crossover counters) is fundamentally more creative in its team building aspect than one that only affects combos? This is basic. I don't have a Marvel bias, I have a bias for creative gameplay. If TTT2 offered that in its team building, then I would play it. Marvel isn't even the most creative team-based fighting game out there! That honor goes to Skullgirls.
You pretty much did the exact same thing as Sayah and did not tackle the argument provided nor was an appropriate counter example provided.
Rage rating is irrelevant to the discussion. That shit was in TTT1 too.
Shouta
Member
Don't do that. Your argument us ridiculously poor as a rebuttal to his. TTT2 does not have assists meaning its a 1v1 one game until someone gets hit or tagged in. Marvel or SG or whatever do have assists and as a result, they have an actual effect on the neutral game but cause it will actually do stuff on screen without landing a hit or being tagged in. Whether he's played it extensively or not matters. One can easily surmise how it affects game play without spending a lot time with it if they understand fgs in general.
Deckard Cain
Banned
What's the argument again? That a broken game with 10 viable characters & few relevent team combinations has more creativity than a balanced game with thousands of viable team combinations?
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