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Fighting Games Weekly | Aug 18-24 | Fall back, u nerd

Dahbomb

Member
Don't do that. Your argument us ridiculously poor as a rebuttal to his. TTT2 does not have assists meaning its a 1v1 one game until someone gets hit or tagged in. Marvel or SG or whatever do have assists and as a result, they have an actual effect on the neutral game but cause it will actually do stuff on screen without landing a hit or being tagged in. Whether he's played it extensively or not matters. One can easily surmise how it affects game play without spending a lot time with it if they understand fgs in general.
Thank you for this. Hit the nail on the head.

I don't like the baseless assumptions being thrown around that people have not played the games. Sure I have not played the game as much as I have other Tekken games but I have played it enough where I feel that I have an accurate understanding of the mechanics.


What's the argument again? That a broken game with 10 viable characters & few relevent team combinations has more creativity than a balanced game with thousands of viable team combinations?
And the award for best use of strawman goes to...
 

Sayah

Member
I have definitely played TTT2 a lot or at least enough to grasp the core mechanics.

Now it's your turn to actually provide an example of any mechanic in TTT2 that by itself influences the neutral.

I definitely remember you saying you played T6 and not TTT2 in one of the previous FGW threads. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

TAs can be used to create a lot of setups that can influence the neutral outside of team combos.

igh2gSmB78LfX.gif



You also have happy-halloween type situations where characters will still be impacted by strings outside of combos. You also have things like this happening
icjCMYmBMT7gk.gif



This impacts the neutral. But yeah, no, you've played TTT2 all right.
 

Dahbomb

Member
And you still did not provide example of actions being in the neutral. I think you need to go back and learn what that word means.

For my previous statement that caused the confusion, I said that I OWNED T6 and not TTT2. I have played both games but I never owned TTT2. All of my TTT2 play time has come from playing it at locals.
 
No Im serious Dahbomb cause if picking characters with safer neutral tagging tactics doesn't effect neutral I dunno what does. You seem to just ignore every piece of evidence you don't have an answer for & concentrate on ones you do. And you call my arguments strawma. Lol
 
First, you don't have to play the game to be of the opinion that, conceptually, combos are the least creative aspect of a team fighter. It's not a Tekken-based comment, it's a universal comment on fighting games. You don't have a point.

No, I haven't played TTT2 or SFxT. It has nothing to do with the discussion, though. I don't have to eat shit to know it would taste bad.

Well I know which game is called a kusoge(shit game) and a 95% combos, 5% everything else game in Japan. And it isn't Tekken. Hint: it's the fighting game that isn't getting a patch or a sequel.

What's the argument again? That a broken game with 10 viable characters & few relevent team combinations has more creativity than a balanced game with thousands of viable team combinations?

that braindead rushdown character plus beam assist is the epitome of creativity.

If I modded SF4 to have Dhalsim fart out Yoga Cotastrophe every 5 seconds as another "vector of attack" as Seth Killian would put it, would it be the best game ever?
 

Sayah

Member
How is it hard to understand that a game that allows team members to affect the neutral, combos, and various other situations (mechanics like DHCs, TACs, and crossover counters) is fundamentally more creative in its team building aspect than one that only affects combos? This is basic. I don't have a Marvel bias, I have a bias for creative gameplay. If TTT2 offered that in its team building, then I would play it. Marvel isn't even the most creative team-based fighting game out there! That honor goes to Skullgirls.

You specifically mentioned that combos are the LEAST creative aspect of a team game. That is absolutely false and you would know if it you played TTT2.

The argument isn't over whether MvC3 is a more creative team game or whether TTT2 is a more creative team game. Yet somehow, you and dahbomb have turned this discussion into that.

Don't do that. Your argument us ridiculously poor as a rebuttal to his. TTT2 does not have assists meaning its a 1v1 one game until someone gets hit or tagged in. Marvel or SG or whatever do have assists and as a result, they have an actual effect on the neutral game but cause it will actually do stuff on screen without landing a hit or being tagged in. Whether he's played it extensively or not matters. One can easily surmise how it affects game play without spending a lot time with it if they understand fgs in general.

Read above.
 
I think its important to realize that you guys are talking about different things.

Assist in marvel/sg changes how the point character is played

tag team in TTT2 change the dynamic of how the team is played.

Also combos serve a different purpose in TTT2 then in marvel. Marvel is all about efficienty and most likely there will only be one BNB. Not the case in tekken due to walls angles and team makeup. There is a heavier emphasis on oki, which changes how you want to go about combos in tekken. In comparison, there is very little oki in marvel
 

Dahbomb

Member
No Im serious Dahbomb cause if picking characters with safer neutral tagging tactics doesn't effect neutral I dunno what does. You seem to just ignore every piece of evidence you don't have an answer for & concentrate on ones you do. And you call my arguments strawma. Lol
When something concrete presents itself then I will stop ignoring.


The argument isn't over whether MvC3 is a more creative team game or whether TTT2 is a more creative team game. Yet somehow, you and dahbomb have turned this discussion into that.
I never made this an argument about which game is more creative or which is a better team game.
 

colinp

Banned
I'm entertained!


So... How about that USF4 beta coming out tomorrow? Woo wee things might get better on the PC front.
 
I think its important to realize that you guys are talking about different things.

Assist in marvel/sg changes how the point character is played

tag team in TTT2 change the dynamic of how the team is played.

Also combos serve a different purpose in TTT2 then in marvel. Marvel is all about efficienty and most likely there will only be one BNB. Not the case in tekken due to walls angles and team makeup.

Not really. Wolverine isn't going to start zoning with a different assist. Assists just highlight different characters attributes more. Magneto can already run away & rush down, nothing changes except an assist just gives him an avenue for space control of an area.
 
i'm more excited for the beta test of shitty netcode than the actual game methinks.

also guys pls

juggles vs 1 touch of death comboes? it's obvious which one is the better one
parries.
 
Not really. Wolverine isn't going to start zoning with a different assist. Assists just highlight different characters attributes more. Magneto can already run away & rush down, nothing changes except an assist just gives him an avenue for space control of an area.

To an extent it does. I mean you can't say Mag with drones is the same as mag with beam.

firebrand without skrull assist can't unblockable you on inc, but pair him up and it changes his gameplan. It goes from a reset/DHC heavy team to a TOD style gameplan.

I'm not saying it turns yun into dhalsim or anything like that. But it does change the gameplan a bit. You can't say that adding strider or haggar assist doesn't change how you approach matchups.
 

Sayah

Member
I never made this an argument about which game is more creative or which is a better team game.
Okay, then explain to me how a universal statement can be made that combos are the least creative aspect of a team fighter if you're not making that argument. Because these are the only two things being discussed as far as I see.

And you still did not provide example of actions being in the neutral. I think you need to go back and learn what that word means.

For my previous statement that caused the confusion, I said that I OWNED T6 and not TTT2. I have played both games but I never owned TTT2. All of my TTT2 play time has come from playing it at locals.

And I provided you examples of how tag partner can be used in TTT2 to create setups after TA followups and also of how a team character can still be active outside of a combo in TTT2. It may not be the most commonplace thing. But it's there. All you needed was an example.
 

Shouta

Member
I think its important to realize that you guys are talking about different things.

Assist in marvel/sg changes how the point character is played

tag team ins TTT2 change the dynamic of how the team is played.

Well yes but the Marvel/assist paradigm emphasizes the team element of a tag team game and also the neutral game as well. TTT2 lacks that neutral aspect but emphasizes the team element even more by using its innate properties like walls 3D movement, ring position etc. Leads to two different flavors of team game.

IMO, that'd where sfxt fails. Doesn't have the neutral affecting assists and doesn't have situational complexity if Tag 2.
 

colinp

Banned
i'm more excited for the beta test of shitty netcode than the actual game methinks.

also guys pls

juggles vs 1 touch of death comboes? it's obvious which one is the better one
parries.

Hmmm, to fit into this thread maybe we should be more angry about the beta... Like in the USF4 ot!

Damn crapcom (get it, huh huh huh) and there beta! What is this bullshit? Im angry about fighting games and my opinion is best, conceptually and creatively speaking!
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
But I said requires. If a character dies in a tag game, you lose. That gives an entire different weight to the decision to keep them in back recovering life, or risk their safety and push. So there's this huge front character, back character risk management that you have to undergo for the entire match. IIRC, TACs were created to enforce more characters switching but it didn't work out that way. Marvel inherently has linear character roles where characters pretty much die in the order that they're placed.

Also, I just find it hard to accept that the game that treats characters like 33% life dicerolls as a more effective team game. Even in high level Marvel, you see players who are totally carried by their point or anchor characters. I totally remember Rayray shitting on the community saying no one learns Zero/Doom/Dante because it requires you to be good with all three characters. As opposed to TTT2 where people choose clone teams, or SFxT where there was frequent xcopying, all because those games enforced you to be good with your entire team. You argue about assists, but that isn't about team play. That's single character plus generic horizontal assist a customization.
So why are you devaluing the importance of second and third characters/assists in the neutral in general and the risk that you can lose them entirely for a bad assist call? Marvel is about not putting yourself in disadvantageous situations before they happen, and assists are integral to that even if you continue to operate under the broad, unrealistic assumption that only your point/anchor character matters because the rest of the game will be a wash. Synergy matters just as much in front or back-loaded teams. Without that customization, "you lose." I think that assumption undermines your point about the comparative value of characters in the team considerably. You need those characters, and you can't really look at points/anchors in isolation.

You make a good point about the character roles being different in the two games but I'm not sure why those roles are necessarily a bad thing, and the best teams are the ones that can function out of order and still be effective. Part of the team mechanic in the game is creating a team that works by applying knowledge of those characters based on strengths and weaknesses. All relevant to synergy.
 
When something concrete presents itself then I will stop ignoring.



I never made this an argument about which game is more creative or which is a better team game.


See you just ignores it again. You're such a scrub. Let me ask you a simple question Dahbomb, if in Marvel 3 some characters could make their raw tags completely safe in block, do you really believe that would not have a huge effect on how you play Neutral against that team?
 
curious, are people then making the assumption that KOF and CVS2 are bad team game? or is that different because there is no tag in it.
 
To an extent it does. I mean you can't say Mag with drones is the same as mag with beam.

firebrand without skrull assist can't unblockable you on inc, but pair him up and it changes his gameplan. It goes from a reset/DHC heavy team to a TOD style gameplan.

I'm not saying it turns yun into dhalsim or anything like that. But it does change the gameplan a bit. You can't say that adding strider or haggar assist doesn't change how you approach matchups.

Yeah & you don't think team composition alters the way characters play a bit in Tag 2?
 

kirblar

Member
curious, are people then making the assumption that KOF and CVS2 are bad team game? or is that different because there is no tag in it.
It's a different thing altogether. KOF-style and Marvel-style both produce interesting gameplay, I don't think Tekken Tag style does and is actually a net negative.
 

Dahbomb

Member
And I provided you examples of how tag partner can be used in TTT2 to create setups after TA followups and also of how a team character can still be active outside of a combo in TTT2. It may not be the most commonplace thing. But it's there.
And I am saying that creating set ups after a combo does not fall into playing 1v1 neutral. One character is at an advantageous position while the other is at a clear disadvantageous position, hence it is not a state of neutral.

Okay, then explain to me how a universal statement can be made that combos are the least creative aspect of a team fighter if you're not making that argument. Because these are the only two things being discussed as far as I see.
Karst said that not me. I said that most of the team creativity of Tekken comes from the combo aspect of it but I did not exclude stuff like set ups/okizeme from the team options. That said most of the creativity of Tekken does in fact come from the combo system and what it leads into (set ups).

I personally don't think that combo creation is the least creative aspect of a team fighter especially not in the way TTT2 is set up.
 

Sayah

Member
curious, are people then making the assumption that KOF and CVS2 are bad team game?

They are not.

Some people here are assuming that using team characters in neutral is superior to using team characters in combos. When it's very clear, as in the gifs I posted above, that team characters can be used in combos to create situational circumstances. And somehow, team combos are still the least creative aspect of team fighters.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
curious, are people then making the assumption that KOF and CVS2 are bad team game? or is that different because there is no tag in it.

Well, I don't know if I would call them bad. But for those games while there is team composition that alters resource management, team members don't have an effect on what happens during a match.
 
Yeah & you don't think team composition alters the way characters play a bit in Tag 2?

It does definitely. But to a lesser extent or atleast in a different way. One game is more focused on one side, and the other focuses on other things that the other doesn't.

I can see why people who don't play TTT2 say that the tag has no influence in the neutral game. I mean, from just watching the game you only think tagging comes in when somebody gets hit via tag assault, which is a combo.

Funny enough, I heard people who don't play fighting games or marvel say some similar stuff about marvel. "Marvel isn't really skillful since you just need to land one hit". I mean, if you don't understand marvel, then yeah I can see why you would reach that conclusion.

Well, I don't know if I would call them bad. But for those games while there is team composition that alters resource management, team members don't have an effect on what happens during a match.

correct. The only influence the team had is the damage they dealt (or didn't deal) and the resources.
 
Combos are an integral part of the gameplay. Why is discussion on tag mechanics disqualified when talking about combos? This is actually part where MvC3 is the least creative. Team combos.

Combos are an integral part of any fighting game that has them; the opponent that can maximize their damage often has a huge advantage over one that can't or doesn't. But, combos being important doesn't make them interesting, especially not in a game where combos are extremely static. The only game I can think of with really interesting combos is Smash, because the system is so dynamic.

enzo's post that started this was basically him saying that team mechanics that don't directly affect the neutral don't interest him. You responded with a bunch of stuff with how amazing the team system is, but none of that has any direct affect on the neutral. I commented because this is the same shit we see people saying all the time. The neutral is the most important part of the game to them, and combos, while nice the first time you see them, get old very quickly and are something no one really likes.
 

Sayah

Member
And I am saying that creating set ups after a combo does not fall into playing 1v1 neutral. One character is at an advantageous position while the other is at a clear disadvantageous position, hence it is not a state of neutral.
Yeah, I am thinking of neutral as something else. In any case, all my previous points stand. Again, not sure why I should even have to provide you tag partner usage in neutral situation in TTT2 when the thing that started all this is calling team combos the least creative aspect of team games, which I disagreed with.
It's a different thing altogether. KOF-style and Marvel-style both produce interesting gameplay, I don't think Tekken Tag style does and is actually a net negative.

LOL
Kirblar, when have you ever said anything positive about Tekken?
 
Said no one ever.

They're shit games because they don't have assists and teleports said the nobody.

enzo's post that started this was basically him saying that team mechanics that don't directly affect the neutral don't interest him. You responded with a bunch of stuff with how amazing the team system is, but none of that has any direct affect on the neutral. I commented because this is the same shit we see people saying all the time. The neutral is the most important part of the game to them, and combos, while nice the first time you see them, get old very quickly and are something no one really likes.

I'm really getting tired of the neutral game posturing by the minion side. At least character vs character interactions in 3D games are decided logically through frame advantage and turn taking. Marvel's game winning play last night was


z0HyNso.gif
 

kirblar

Member
The effect that the Tekken Tag system has on the neutral is this: It leads to combos doing higher average damage due to the possibility of needing to deplete two entire life gauges over the course of the round. This leads to greater volatility, due to the need to only deplete one of those two gauges over the course of a round. This leads to a heavily defensive and safe neutral game that discourages high risks and hard reads emerging, as any single hit can turn into massive damage. The elongated combos end up pushing newer/casual players away from the game, since they're not able to devote the time to learning them. And spectators are driven away from the game due to the hyper-defensive neutral game and the long combos both being spectacularly uninteresting to watch.

One of the things about Marvel - even though neutral often ends up in TOD- because it's a single character, the damage for any non-Happy Birthday combo is "capped" at 1/3 of a team's total lifebar.
 

Sayah

Member
Combos are an integral part of any fighting game that has them; the opponent that can maximize their damage often has a huge advantage over one that can't or doesn't. But, combos being important doesn't make them interesting, especially not in a game where combos are extremely static. The only game I can think of with really interesting combos is Smash, because the system is so dynamic.

enzo's post that started this was basically him saying that team mechanics that don't directly affect the neutral don't interest him. You responded with a bunch of stuff with how amazing the team system is, but none of that has any direct affect on the neutral. I commented because this is the same shit we see people saying all the time. The neutral is the most important part of the game to them, and combos, while nice the first time you see them, get old very quickly and are something no one really likes.

Uuuuh.. No.

This is Enzo's original post.
I've never understood the appeal of tag games with no assist or more significant synergistic mechanics. It's not really satisfying to me, you just end up withering down two separate life bars and tagging inbetween them when you're in danger. Would rather just play a 1v1 game.



My reply post explained very SPECIFICALLY how team synergy works in TTT2. Nobody is talking about the neutral game.

Edit: On your comment on combos. They are very diverse and situational in TTT2 thanks to angles, walls, etc.
 
It's a different thing altogether. KOF-style and Marvel-style both produce interesting gameplay, I don't think Tekken Tag style does and is actually a net negative.

Sorry man, I think the tag play in TTT2 is very interesting. It's just different than the others.

Variety, the spice of life.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Welp, this discussion has reached the point where words are being put in mouths and there is salt over points that have nothing to do with the discussion.

*eject*
 

Deps

Member
Looks like everyones playing the "I haven't played this game, but fuck it let me say random shit anyways" game in the last few pages. Sounds fun, lemme try.

Assists in Mvc3 make the game random
Marvel is for scrubs, get hit once and die. Game is ass butter.
If KOF didn't have all that crazy hopping around and shit and felt more like SF4 it might be a decent game.
The only interesting gameplay in Arcana Heart is avoiding the police.
 
Looks like everyones playing the "I haven't played this game, but fuck it let me say random shit anyways" game in the last few pages. Sounds fun, lemme try.

Assists in Mvc3 make the game random
Marvel is for scrubs, get hit once and die. Game is ass butter.
If KOF didn't have all that crazy hopping around and shit and felt more like SF4 it might be a decent game.
The only interesting gameplay in Arcana Heart is avoiding the police.

You're good at this game.
 

Sayah

Member
Welp, this discussion has reached the point where words are being put in mouths and there is salt over points that have nothing to do with the discussion.

*eject*

Dawg, I will admit when I'm wrong and I did. :p

I had a closely relative but different understanding of neutral game. But I'm not some fighting game encyclopedia so yeah....lol.

Also, has Kirblar played TTT2?
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm really getting tired of the neutral game posturing by the minion side. At least character vs character interactions in 3D games are decided logically through frame advantage and turn taking. Marvel's game winning play last night was
The Berserker Slash finisher last night was godlike. Don't hate man!

Also, has Kirblar played TTT2?
I don't think Kirblar has played Tekken since 3 and even back then it would be extremely casual Tekken play (like mash kicks with Eddie with the buddies to get some cheesy wins).
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Looks like everyones playing the "I haven't played this game, but fuck it let me say random shit anyways" game in the last few pages. Sounds fun, lemme try.

Assists in Mvc3 make the game random
Marvel is for scrubs, get hit once and die. Game is ass butter.
If KOF didn't have all that crazy hopping around and shit and felt more like SF4 it might be a decent game.
The only interesting gameplay in Arcana Heart is avoiding the police.

I want to contribute.

Smash is dumb because lol two buttons
Anime games make no sense
Who even plays Virtua Fighter?
UNiEL's name is too stupid for it to be played
Scorpion's Injustice teleports are unfair
 

Uraizen

Banned
Looks like everyones playing the "I haven't played this game, but fuck it let me say random shit anyways" game in the last few pages. Sounds fun, lemme try.

Assists in Mvc3 make the game random
Marvel is for scrubs, get hit once and die. Game is ass butter.
If KOF didn't have all that crazy hopping around and shit and felt more like SF4 it might be a decent game.
The only interesting gameplay in Arcana Heart is avoiding the police.

I really want to join in, but I can't think of a fighter
on console
I haven't tried at least once.

EDIT: No, wait!

Phantom breaker sucks
 
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