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[Retro_]

I still think banning Kokonoe/character bans is a pretty stupid thing to do, but eh.

Should Akuma be allowed in Super Turbo?

I'm ok with bans if it makes the game more fun overall. Especially for console exclusive characters after the days of Justice in PS2 GG's or SNK bosses being apart of the regular roster in KoF console ports

 

[biosnake20]

F2P Capcom all stars

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

JoJo's sold well despite being complete ass beyond a casual level, too.

On the topic of control schemes since it's topical, what's your preferred blend of input difficulty for command moves, and for what applications? Just as a general guideline I'd rank difficulties (with specific applications) as
1: mashable input (P4A auto combos, Tag Assaults in Tag 2)
2: directional input (smash, 3D fighters to some degree)
3. "simple" SF-style input (QCF, DP, 360)
3.5? MK-style input
4. "complex" SF-style input (multiple QCF/HCB, 720s)
5. fuck me tier (pretzel motion, summon suffering)

I think a fighting game that wants to appeal to the mass casual market needs to have some sort of universal T1 move, and competitive play should seldom exceed T3. Ideally I'd put the ceiling at Smash-style inputs but the reasons why you would want more complex command inputs are acceptable to me.

 

[Infinite]

Yeah but it doesn't have nearly enough characters to get the widespread appeal. I mean I am not a Persona fan... why would I ever bother with that game? Now if that game had Dante in it... I would be all over that shit and so would a lot of people.

I am not saying it has to be a Shonen Jump game... I am saying the characters need even broader appeal than that.



Honestly it would need the perfect balance of easy to get into but hard to master type game play with the right set of visuals and character appeal that is nearly impossible to make. It would have to have some game play mechanic that just grabs people.

It's going to be very difficult for a new IP anime fighter to break out in the West unless it provides a bunch of new never before seen mechanic and even then I don't think that will be enough. Too much of a stigma over them. I think the whole concept of "anime fighter" needs to be over hauled... from the control scheme, the long combos, the character designs etc.

Basically what I am saying is that you need to make an anime fighting game without it looking like an anime game to your average gamer.

I feel you but I think your argument boils down to people are going to favor shit they recognize. So yeah a DBZ fighter or a Naruto Fighter will be a lot more popular than a BlazBlue. That much goes without saying. What I'm trying to get out of you is how does a game like BlazBlue which doesn't have the luxury of having recognizable characters being a fresh IP and all go about becoming popular in the west. But you addressed that point well in the later part of your post.

I think the issue is that a game like BlazBlue isn't marketed towards western gamers on any level as its primary market is Japanese arcade goers not western console owners. So fundamentally a lot of design choices will cater to that demographic first and foremost. Like you said an "anime" game that wants to succeed in the west will probably look something like SF or Soul Calibur, designs with universal appeal. Also some of the mechanics will be a bit different like you said

Not be a new fighting game IP

Like you're asking a question that has no answer as it has never been done and no one has an idea of how to go about making it happen.

Capcom fighters and namco fighters (namely soul Calibur) have anime-ish aesthetics but ones with global appeal to them. It's been done already. The problem is a companies like arcsys or examu don't really give a shit about any territory outside of Japan and tailor their designs and mechanics to what appeals to that region

 

[kick51]

Should Akuma be allowed in Super Turbo?

I'm ok with bans if it makes the game more fun overall. Especially for console exclusive characters after the days of Justice in PS2 GG's or SNK bosses being apart of the regular roster in KoF console ports

People could see Akuma was broken from day 1. there was little debate necessary.

 

[Beckx]

Not at all, I would love to learn Lion. He's a goofball but mantis is too cool.

Chibita is the person you should watch, timestamped for when the matches start
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=15sF2VKREAI&t=195

Thanks man. Was just playing him a bit (just silly local fun with my kids) and remembered how much fun he can be.

 

[Infinite]

People could see Akuma was broken from day 1. there was little debate necessary.

Similar thing with Kokonoe

 

[alstein]

People could see Akuma was broken from day 1. there was little debate necessary.

HDR Akuma needed a debate- but ended up banned as well.

It takes time to figure out if some character is truly broke.

 

[soakrates]

Capcom fighters and namco fighters (namely soul Calibur) have anime-ish aesthetics but ones with global appeal to them. It's been done already.

SoulCalibur's aesthetic owes a lot more to classic films in the martial arts, wuxia and samurai genres, with a considerable helping of high fantasy and historical fiction. Although the concept art is sometimes drawn in the anime style, the game itself isn't very anime at all.

 

[Retro_]

I think a fighting game that wants to appeal to the mass casual market needs to have some sort of universal T1 move, and competitive play should seldom exceed T3. Ideally I'd put the ceiling at Smash-style inputs but the reasons why you would want more complex command inputs are acceptable to me.

I think when you do this you have to ask yourself what kind of game you really want to make.

Like people are thinking from a publisher/marketing perspective and not the perspective of designers.

I don't think any designer just wants to make a product that will sell the most amount of copies. They want to make good games. and I don't think good games are made from hitting marketing bullet points.

I mean it doesn't really make sense to me to balance your game towards the beginner level rather than the highest level as that just seems like chopping the legs out from under your game. If you want to make a game that you can develop and that people will play for a long time you have to have a high skill ceiling. Only cap or lower the skill ceiling if you only care about selling immediate copies.

Capcom fighters and namco fighters (namely soul Calibur) have anime-ish aesthetics but ones with global appeal to them. It's been done already. The problem is a companies like arcsys or examu don't really give a shit about any territory outside of Japan and tailor their designs and mechanics to what appeals to that region

I'm not sure I agree with any of this. Especially the idea that mechanics in fighting games deliberately appeal to different regions.

 

[Dahbomb]

I honestly think that a new IP for a fighting game (Western or Eastern doesn't matter) is going to have an insanely difficult time breaking out. The last new fighting game IP that broke out in the mainstream audience was Soul Calibur 1... that was more than a decade ago closer to 15 years now. The next closest games would probably be GG/BB. That just goes to show that the genre is still fairly niche and the only games that sell in it are the ones with big IPs attached to them.

 

[Infinite]

SoulCalibur's aesthetic owes a lot more to classic films in the martial arts, wuxia and samurai genres, with a considerable helping of high fantasy and historical fiction. Although the concept art is sometimes drawn in the anime style, the game itself isn't very anime at all.

A bunch of different amines themselves are inspired by those very things you mentioned here.

 

[El Sloth]

What are you talking about? There's nothing potent about that post. It's SRK at its worst.

Look I'm no fan of Killer Instinct, never have been, but this thread is about all fighting games. Anyone who can't respect that should be told to GTFO because they are shitposting and hogging this thread for themselves. This thread doesn't exist for an insular community, it exists for GAF.

I realize this is funny given the sub-title.

I'm pretty late to this, but this a real post. It's perfectly fine to criticize games and their mechanics, but some of you cross the line into no substance, "your favorite game is shit. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit." Keep that shit to the youtube comments of fighting game videos.

Now with that being said, Dong Dong Never Die sux.

 

[Retro_]

Basically fighting games aren't a premier genre of games anymore like they were when SF2 hit the scene so the only ones that are going to penetrate the AAA space are the known quantities.

The new titles are always going to have niche appeal going forward no matter what you do, because fighting games are a niche genre nowadays.

 

[Horseress]

Can we consider Injustice a new IP that broke out? It sold a lot in it's early months

 

[soakrates]

A bunch of different amines themselves are inspired by those very things you mentioned here.

Indeed, but SoulCalibur is directly influenced by them, not influenced by anime proxy.

 

[Dahbomb]

Can we consider Injustice a new IP that broke out? It sold a lot in it's early months

That is not a new IP at all!!!! It uses DC characters.

We are talking about new IP as in brand new characters completely, designed for a fighting game from the ground up. So new IPs would include stuff like Skullgirls, Divekick, BB and GG. It does not include Persona, KI, Naruto Ninja Storm and Injustice.

 

[Silky]

Can we consider Injustice a new IP that broke out? It sold a lot in it's early months

why would you want to consider a bad fighting game

Spoiler

how much did Divekick sell? Skullgirls? No doubt SG is in the 200-300k range at this point of it's life

 

[SousedLouse]

I'm not sure I agree with any of this. Especially the idea that mechanics in fighting games deliberately appeal to different regions.

Yeah, that line threw me for a loop. Games with certain input styles that are made nowadays tend to skew towards the same aesthetics, and because of that their popularity is different from region to region, but I'm pretty sure that the inputs themselves aren't a factor in how well a game does in any particular region.

Can we consider Injustice a new IP that broke out? It sold a lot in it's early months

I certainly would. It did pretty well for itself, and DC needs any sort of profit they can get - I'm sure that once the game's had a good run, they'll ask Netherrealm Studios to take a crack at a sequel.

I'm pretty late to this, but this a real post. It's perfectly fine to criticize games and their mechanics, but some of you cross the line into no substance, "your favorite game is shit. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit." Keep that shit to the youtube comments of fighting game videos.

Now with that being said, Dong Dong Never Die sux.

 

[Infinite]

I don't doubt that fighting games are niche genre but it's fair to discuss why anime fighting games embraced by the North American FGC.

 

[Retro_]

Can we consider Injustice a new IP that broke out? It sold a lot in it's early months

Injustice is no different from the Naruto games to me.

Not even a comment on its quality, it's just attached to a highly visible and successful pre-existing brand.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't doubt that fighting games are niche genre but it's fair to discuss why anime fighting games embraced by the North American FGC.

You could also ask why Injustice, MK or KI aren't embraced by the Japanese FGC.

 

[kirblar]

from that thread...they banned her after people signed up? and because "top players" complained. very responsible thing to do.

Finding her blockstring infinite almost certainly tipped the scales. She's had ban discussions since pretty soon after she released because of how out-of-whack her tuning is compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

You could also ask why Injustice, MK or KI aren't embraced by the Japanese FGC.

no arcade versions?

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I think when you do this you have to ask yourself what kind of game you really want to make.

Like people are thinking from a publisher/marketing perspective and not the perspective of designers.

I don't think any designer just wants to make a product that will sell the most amount of copies. They want to make good games. and I don't think good games are made from hitting marketing bullet points.

I mean it doesn't really make sense to me to balance your game towards the beginner level rather than the highest level as that just seems like chopping the legs out from under your game. If you want to make a game that you can develop and that people will play for a long time you have to have a high skill ceiling. Only cap or lower the skill ceiling if you only care about selling immediate copies.

The thing is that dexterity is the most shallow representation of complexity in a game. While it's possible that lowering the dexterity barrier also lowers the overall skill ceiling of the game, is the tradeoff worth it? As a game designer you need to rnsure that the relationship between experience playing a competitive game and win rate is balanced. This is something that's true regardless of marketing efforts.

 

[kirblar]

You could also ask why Injustice, MK or KI aren't embraced by the Japanese FGC.

Didn't we all kinda think of MK games as American "Kusoge", even as kids? I mean, they were tons of fun, but I never really took them seriously back in the MK/2/3 era.

 

[Retro_]

Yeah, that line threw me for a loop. Games with certain input styles that are made nowadays tend to skew towards the same aesthetics, and because of that their popularity is different from region to region, but I'm pretty sure that the inputs themselves aren't a factor in how well a game does in any particular region.

Yeah. You only need to look at Marvel to throw that argument out. Game is everything people complain about in games like Blazblue and then some. but it's currently the most popular fighting game in the United States.

 

[Infinite]

Yeah, that line threw me for a loop. Games with certain input styles that are made nowadays tend to skew towards the same aesthetics, and because of that their popularity is different from region to region, but I'm pretty sure that the inputs themselves aren't a factor in how well a game does in any particular region.

You misunderstand me and that's partly my fault because I wasn't exactly clear with what I meant. But games mechanics period no matter the genre no matter the region are influenced by other games that exist in that genre particularly the successful ones. For example after the super success of the call of the duty franchise the battlefield and halo series all tried borrowing mechanics featured in it to also appeal to that crowd. Games like arcana heart, guilty gear, BlazBlue, persona and Melty Blood were all at one point very popular in Japanese arcades and these games all have parallel mechanics and matches flow the same for the most part.

You could also ask why Injustice, MK or KI aren't embraced by the Japanese FGC.

You will get similar answers to both questions

 

[FunkQueue]

I think this Kokonoe ban is too soon. I'd rather hear what good BlazBlue players have to say over American "Top Players" (Just stating facts).

 

[Retro_]

I think this Kokonoe ban is too soon. I'd rather hear what good BlazBlue players have to say over American "Top Players" (Just stating facts).

First of all boooooooooooooooo

2nd of all "good" blazblue players don't have to deal with her. She's not in arcade.

 

[EarlyEarly]

Can anyone link a Kokonoe match to show how broken she is?

 

[El Sloth]

Search your feelings, SousedLouse. You know what I say is true!

I think this Kokonoe ban is too soon. I'd rather hear what good BlazBlue players have to say over American "Top Players" (Just stating facts).

Yo, damn. I wonder if anime players nationwide simultaneously felt a sharp pain in their chest as you hit submit.

 

[vocab]

I think this Kokonoe ban is too soon. I'd rather hear what good BlazBlue players have to say over American "Top Players" (Just stating facts).

Actually it came at a good time. Right before the road to evo.

 

[FunkQueue]

First of all boooooooooooooooo

2nd of all "good" blazblue players don't have to deal with her. She's not in arcade.

You think they aren't playing at home?

All I'm saying is that if a new char in Ultra SF4 came out and Americans like Jwong/PR Rog/Ricky said it was too broken... I'd take their word with a grain of salt.

If Chris G/FChamp/RayRay said Vergil should be banned... again these dudes know the game and can compete with the best in the world.

But American anime players telling me Kokonoe is broken when they are garbage on a global scale? I'm not even hearing it.

 

[kirblar]

You think they aren't playing at home?

All I'm saying is that if a new char in Ultra SF4 came out and Americans like Jwong/PR Rog/Ricky said it was too broken... I'd take their word with a grain of salt.

If Chris G/FChamp/RayRay said Vergil should be banned... again these dudes know the game and can compete with the best in the world.

But American anime players telling me Kokonoe is broken when they are garbage on a global scale? I'm not even hearing it.

So with absolutely no familiarity with the character, her frame data, her damage output, you feel confident enough to say "nah its not a problem?" Really?

The Americans are playing on the Japanese version of the game. It's not even out here officially.

 

[Retro_]

You think they aren't playing at home?

All I'm saying is that if a new char in Ultra SF4 came out and Americans like Jwong/PR Rog/Ricky said it was too broken... I'd take their word with a grain of salt.

If Chris G/FChamp/RayRay said Vergil should be banned... again these dudes know the game and can compete with the best in the world.

But American anime players telling me Kokonoe is broken when they are garbage on a global scale? I'm not even hearing it.

Maybe you should improve your own skills and come up with your own opinions instead of looking down your nose and judging and ranking players that are all probably better than you.

 

[Horseress]

So with absolutely no familiarity with the character, her frame data, her damage output, you feel confident enough to say "nah its not a problem?" Really?

The Americans are playing on the Japanese version of the game. It's not even out here officially.

Do we know what's the opinion of the Japanese players about Kokonoe?

 

[Shouta]

Hold up, there's an AE PC mod with the Ultra changes? How do I see about snagging this?

KingBlackToof or whoever made it. I tried it out and it's definitely not perfect and is missing a few things but it can give you a good idea of what it feels like. T.hawk walk speed still scares the fuck out of me.

 

[SolarKnight]

First of all boooooooooooooooo

2nd of all "good" blazblue players don't have to deal with her. She's not in arcade.

Even then, I've seen people mention that the Japanese hate her too so it's certainly not a "lol America" thing

Can anyone link a Kokonoe match to show how broken she is?

It's not a match, but it's this kind of stuff that was the last straw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvlIAlSQFLo

For context, that's a combo that corner carries from midscreen started with a low light into an infinite blockstring into an unblockable setup that literally about 90% of the cast can't escape into death

 

[Infinite]

Do we know what's the opinion of the Japanese players about Kokonoe?

Since she came out Jiyuna was complaining about her. The Japanese players already know she's gdlk, tsujikawa switch from Taokaka to her

 

[SousedLouse]

You misunderstand me and that's partly my fault because I wasn't exactly clear with what I meant. But games mechanics period no matter the genre no matter the region are influenced by other games that exist in that genre particularly the successful ones. For example after the super success of the call of the duty franchise the battlefield and halo series all tried borrowing mechanics featured in it to also appeal to that crowd. Games like arcana heart, guilty gear, BlazBlue, persona and Melty Blood were all at one point very popular in Japanese arcades and these games all have parallel mechanics and matches flow the same for the most part.

Oh, I see. Well then, I think we agree. Although I find it interesting that in many modern Japanese fighting games, there's at least who stands out because they operate under a different set of rules, like Slayer or Hakumen in GG and BB, or Mei-Fang in AH3. Inputs have started to co-mingle a bit as time passes, too - it's rare to see a SF-style game made in this day and age without at least one character possessing some sort of Target Combo, for example.

Search your feelings, SousedLouse. You know what I say is true!

I...

...damn.

It's still real to me, damnit.

 

[FunkQueue]

Maybe you should improve your own skills and come up with your own opinions instead of looking down your nose and judging and ranking players that are all probably better than you.

So with absolutely no familiarity with the character, her frame data, her damage output, you feel confident enough to say "nah its not a problem?" Really?

The Americans are playing on the Japanese version of the game. It's not even out here officially.

I'm not saying she isn't a problem. I'm only saying that I don't believe these top players opinions matter.

 

[vocab]

Can anyone link a Kokonoe match to show how broken she is?

She has a blockstring infinite that leads to black hole (unblockable and very hard to even escape), Only can be beat by burst or IB CA which good fucking luck when you got a trap and ball floating in front of you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrSJJHwFATA&t=10m20s
Blackhole leads to this shit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSHe0vnUW8g&feature=youtu.be
highest 2a starter into combo damage in the game compared to the rest of the cast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvlIAlSQFLo Thanks SolarKnight.
massive damage off anti airs compared to the rest of the cast.

anyone who justifies this character is fucking retarded. If you want kokonoe mirrors in GF, by all means let the character rock.

 

[Curry-Hakase]

Do we know what's the opinion of the Japanese players about Kokonoe?

http://jbbs.shitaraba.net/bbs/read.cgi/game/45148/1389251491/l50

That big ASCII turd should cue you in.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Retro_ is on fire today

 

[soakrates]

KingBlackToof or whoever made it. I tried it out and it's definitely not perfect and is missing a few things but it can give you a good idea of what it feels like. T.hawk walk speed still scares the fuck out of me.

Yeah I played around with it last night, and the Yang changes seem pretty accurate, although it's a little hard to tell because the last time I played Ultra was back in November. Anxious to try playing against people though.

 

[Infinite]

Kokonoe is bullshit. Sorry.

 

[Dahbomb]

She has a blockstring infinite that leads to black hole, Only can be beat by burst or IB CA which good fucking luck when you got a trap and ball floating in front of you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrSJJHwFATA&t=10m20s
Blackhole leads to this shit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSHe0vnUW8g&feature=youtu.be
highest 2a starter into combo damage in the game compared to the rest of the cast.
massive damage off anti airs compared to the rest of the cast.

anyone who justifies this character is fucking retarded. If you want kokonoe mirrors in GF, by all means let the character rock.

In all my life playing and following fighting games...

I can say with certainty that this is in fact... a FAIR and BALANCED character.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Retro_ is on fire today

He should post more often instead of hating MGR

 

[Deckard Cain]

Chun should have been banned in 3S.