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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 20-26 | I Can't Believe It's Not A Fighting Game

I'm really curious where characters like Spencer, Storm, Akuma and RR end up in the tier list or team setup in two or three years. They all have great strengths and mobility but seems in a world of Zero teams and Vergils, it would be tough.

It now feels okay for me to play Wesker without feeling too skummy picking top tier (i still love Doom though since vanilla).
 

Busaiku

Member
Kilff/Justice weren't even in Accent Core, and since the US PS2 release was the definitive version (Accent Core + was actually worse), that's also another reason why, I think.
 

notworksafe

Member
@Clawww - You mean what systems are important to teach, or what is good advice for beginners? I find that systems are the worst place to start with a beginner. It's easier to start with very general FG advice and then narrow down as you go. Most beginners start with an idea of what they want already but don't know to accomplish it. So many people show up after watching the demo setup, pick Deadpool or Dante and say "I want to shoot his gun". That type of stuff.

SF
1. BLOCK
2. Don't jump all the damn time
3. Learn how your moves work. Distance, speed, differences between strengths.
4. Don't use your Ultra just cause the meter is full and on fire.
5. Find your ideal playstyle for yourself before deciding on a character. Hang back, be in someone face, inbetween, trick players, etc?

Marvel
1. BLOCK (again)
2. Don't be afraid to go in
3. Don't be afraid to hang back and think
4. Call your assists. Too many new players don't even know that's a thing.
5. Sometimes you gotta mash it out
 

Clawww

Member
@Clawww - You mean what systems are important to teach, or what is good advice for beginners? I find that systems are the worst place to start with a beginner. It's easier to start with very general FG advice and then narrow down as you go. Most beginners start with an idea of what they want already but don't know to accomplish it. So many people show up after watching the demo setup, pick Deadpool or Dante and say "I want to shoot his gun". That type of stuff.

SF
1. BLOCK
2. Don't jump all the damn time
3. Learn how your moves work. Distance, speed, differences between strengths.
4. Don't use your Ultra just cause the meter is full and on fire.
5. Find your ideal playstyle for yourself before deciding on a character. Hang back, be in someone face, inbetween, trick players, etc?

Marvel
1. BLOCK (again)
2. Don't be afraid to go in
3. Don't be afraid to hang back and think
4. Call your assists. Too many new players don't even know that's a thing.
5. Sometimes you gotta mash it out

anything. I see you went for advice instead of mechanics explanation like I did--that's definitely more effective haha. 'just block' and 'don't jump' are pretty much GOAT advice for SF no matter what.
 
No idea, probably none. But I don't see why that matters.

Because banning something just because someone else, across the world, willing chooses not to have match up experience against it is stupid and I'm glad to see it die out.

Americans have access to the console game and the DLC* and so do the Japanese. Just because some people don't have matchup experience because they refuse to get the console version and the character doesn't mean you should punish the person who wants to play that character. The arcade only Japanese pros can just pay up, take the loss, or overcome the disadvantage with their skills.

*Not really, so maybe they should ban BBCP because it's not out in the US.
 

Dahbomb

Member
If you could only offer FIVE concise, bullet-point style tips/explanations to a new player in MvC3 or SF4, what would they be? (Five for each game, that is). Can be anything. Teach them about links or focus or TACs or OTG or whatever. What's core knowledge? Which game can arguably get away with a simpler breakdown?

SF4:

*Probably the first thing I would explain to them is that you can't cancel moves into specials if you chained into them (like you can't just mash cr.LKs into DP), you have to link before the final normal to cancel it. There is no mention of it in the game whatsoever and you need to know it to do the combo trials. Would also use this opportunity to explain the difference between link, chain and cancel.

*Second thing I would explain to them is how Focus Attack work. What they do at different levels, what are their usage, how to do them and then talk about FADC. Would also explain about armor properties and how to beat Focus Attack with different moves or multi hits.

*Next thing I would explain is how the Super bar works (and EX moves) and how Ultra moves work plus what are the differences between the two (you cancel moves into Super but you can't cancel into Ultra... that type of thing).

*Fourth thing I would tell them is the importance of ground game/anti airing versus jumping in all the time. I would tell them to focus more on using normals to play with as opposed to throwing out specials. I feel like a lot of beginners underestimate the power of simple normals in SF.

*Final set of tips I would give them relate to teching throws, back dash and wake ups/knockdowns (basically the standard defensive options). Probably a lot more important in Ultra with the delay wake up. Would teach them how to properly tech throws, the OS and when to back dash plus some ways to beat them if your opponent is doing one of these options too much.


Marvel 3:


*First thing I would teach them is about assists, assist selection, team order and team synergy. How to call assists, when not to call assists and how to build teams around assists or picking assists around characters. I would briefly touch upon Crossover counter mostly as a warning of what not to press to call assist so you don't get CCs (common mistake among beginners).

*Second thing I would teach them is when to Advance guard vs when not to advance guard. Would teach them about the block stun and how its useful to avoid standard right/left mix ups. Would tell them that advance guarding reduces chip damage but still pushes you away so you don't always want to use it when trying to get in. Would tell them to not advance guard stuff like Berserker Slash as that's a common mistake among beginners.

*Teach them about mobility options. Wave dashing, air dashing, fly/unfly, teleports, double jump/triple jump, "up back" chicken block etc. I would show different methods of dashing. Would also teach them how to beat these options (ie you can't block during dashes, you can punish teleports, you can clip someone low while they are upbacking).

*Teach them about combos, their structure and various mechanics involving combos + resources. This basically includes stuff like LMHS into MMHS magic series, OTGs, wall bounce/ground bounce (one limitation each), hyper combo, DHC, TACs, THCs, assist combos, throw combos. While throwing is generally a different category of tips, I would make sure the person knows how to throw and that they can normally combo off of throws which is a big deal in this game.

*The final thing (well final of the 5, still have more to teach) would of course be X Factor. How it works, what benefits you get out of it, when to use it, when not to use it and how to "beat" it. This would also be the place where I would talk about how Snapback works and how it's useful as a way to beat X factor (directly to negate the XFC or to snap in anchor characters). There's a ton of things you can do with XF but I would try to keep it as basic as possible.
 
@Clawww - You mean what systems are important to teach, or what is good advice for beginners? I find that systems are the worst place to start with a beginner. It's easier to start with very general FG advice and then narrow down as you go. Most beginners start with an idea of what they want already but don't know to accomplish it. So many people show up after watching the demo setup, pick Deadpool or Dante and say "I want to shoot his gun". That type of stuff.

SF
1. BLOCK
2. Don't jump all the damn time
3. Learn how your moves work. Distance, speed, differences between strengths.
4. Don't use your Ultra just cause the meter is full and on fire.
5. Find your ideal playstyle for yourself before deciding on a character. Hang back, be in someone face, inbetween, trick players, etc?

Marvel
1. BLOCK (again)
2. Don't be afraid to go in
3. Don't be afraid to hang back and think
4. Call your assists. Too many new players don't even know that's a thing.
5. Sometimes you gotta mash it out


I think you have it in the wrong game.

Jump & block (for marvel)
Also Marvel a great way to learn combos is the chain combos. ABCS-jump BBCS. Super or try to get another hit.
 

Omega

Banned
5. Find your ideal playstyle for yourself before deciding on a character. Hang back, be in someone face, inbetween, trick players, etc?

This is probably the most important. and not just for SF but for every game

I went from wanting to use Viper, Bison, Sagat, Ken, Balrog, Vega and back to Balrog until deciding to just use Gief.

That's probably the hardest thing for people getting into fighting games. You see a character you like, but if you're not comfortable with it, you're going to be frustrated and lose a lot.
 

notworksafe

Member
I think you have it in the wrong game.

Jump & block (for marvel)
Also Marvel a great way to learn combos is the chain combos. ABCS-jump BBCS. Super or try to get another hit.

i guess it depends. when its beginner vs beginner, mashing buttons will often do the trick. sure it's not 100% the best way to teach real lessons, but hitting buttons and making stuff happen makes people feel awesome.

the next step after that is showing them how to make that stuff happen exactly when they want it to.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Marvel
1. BLOCK (again)
2. Don't be afraid to go in
3. Don't be afraid to hang back and think
4. Call your assists. Too many new players don't even know that's a thing.
5. Sometimes you gotta mash it out
2 and 3 counter each other while 3 and 5 counter each other.

The only good advice on here is #4 and #1 if you specified chicken blocking AND advance guarding. Simple ground blocking gets you killed in this game faster than pretty much anything in the game aside from maybe holding forward. Even at the most beginner level... if one player is up/backing and advance guarding all blocks while the other is just holding down/back... there is going to be a huge difference in performance.
 

notworksafe

Member
2 and 3 counter each other while 3 and 5 counter each other.

The only good advice on here is #4 and #1 if you specified chicken blocking AND advance guarding. Simple ground blocking gets you killed in this game faster than pretty much anything in the game aside from maybe holding forward. Even at the most beginner level... if one player is up/backing and advance guarding all blocks while the other is just holding down/back... there is going to be a huge difference in performance.

the point of 2 and 3 is they counter. if you tell a beginner in this game to not be afraid and go in, they'll very often go as hard as possible all the time. marvel is a fast paces game and there's definitely a time to go in hard, but there's a time to hang back too. often you have to remind a new player that both options exist.

using terms like chicken blocking and advance guarding with a new player will result in some major blank looks. start basic, then once they get that move on.
 

Clawww

Member
yeah Dahbomb I think going by your list, although quite sound, might be a bit overwhelming. exploiting advance guard might be kinda intense for our hypothetical newbie.
 

Dahbomb

Member
It's not like I am going to say "bro chicken block that". I am going to first explain what a chicken block is, how you do it and why you should do it. Same thing for an Advance Guard.

These are the type of things that accelerate a beginner player over another beginner player. And that's my idea of what a good tip is.... something that accelerates their growth. If you tell them to "mash" then tell them "don't mash" then they don't learn anything and they get even more confused ("but I thought you told me to go in!"). Contradictory tips help no one.

Honestly... if people want to learn Marvel 3 just watch the Vanilla Viscant MVC3 guide. Even with all the changes its still very relevant at the most basic level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMz3sHNv8Q

yeah Dahbomb I think going by your list, although quite sound, might be a bit overwhelming. exploiting advance guard might be kinda intense for our hypothetical newbie.
IMO learning Advance guard is essential in this game. Not as essential to learn to use it to negate right/left mix ups but its the most essential tip to learn when it comes to avoiding pressure which in this game you are going to deal with a lot. I also forgot that I would tell them that AG doesn't work on assists and that you need to block right/lefts facing the point character... another common mistake made by beginners.
 
yeah Dahbomb I think going by your list, although quite sound, might be a bit overwhelming. exploiting advance guard might be kinda intense for our hypothetical newbie.

The SF4 list is solid. The only thing you'd really need to add is a discussion about the different character types (shoto, grappler etc) so a new player can understand roughly what is going on in each matchup.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The SF4 list is solid. The only thing you'd really need to add is a discussion about the different character types (shoto, grappler etc) so a new player can understand roughly what is going on in each matchup.
Yeah that would be a #6 type tip. I feel like once you get into more character specific type stuff then you are getting more into the nitty gritty of it. Same for Marvel.. I would have to go over stuff like air dashers, teleporters, ground rushdown characters, grapplers/armored characters, hard zoners etc.
 

notworksafe

Member
How beginner is this player? Even explaining guard types and that type of stuff won't work on the typical first time fighter player. People don't decide to start a fighter because of its awesome systems.

They want to do Spiderman's cool web move, or play as that crazy looking green beast guy, or repeat that cool combo they just saw the last guy do. Tips that focus that enthusiasm into actually learning while continuing to enjoy themselves are the way to go. The problem is to get GOOD, a grind is going to be involved and that's not always fun. Which is why most people are happy enough being "okay".
 

Dahbomb

Member
If people want to do "cool shit" or feel good about mashing...

I would point them towards this:

968full-devil-may-cry-3%3A-special-edition-cover.jpg
 

Clawww

Member
I was actually teaching my little bro a bit of Smash recently. like explaining to him the important of punishing and not getting predictable. it's a decent game to learn some fundamentals like baiting/reads in because single hits can count a lot. for instance, I would get a knockdown on him, and then charged a forward smash in anticipation of his tech roll toward me--he got the idea and managed to apply it in other situations. Unfortunately he's a total CoD kid and I haven't been able to seriously break him into fighting games for real haha

If people want to do "cool shit" or feel good about mashing...

I would point them towards this:

968full-devil-may-cry-3%3A-special-edition-cover.jpg

I actually don't feel comfortable recommending this game to most people these days, since it doesn't really spoonfeed you.
 

Dahbomb

Member
What the hell is chicken blocking??
It's just up/back (block in the air, low to the ground). Fancy term for an otherwise very simple technique. I emphasize this because a lot of beginners default to blocking on the ground and in Marvel that is suicidal. Chicken blocking is safer, makes you impervious to high/lows, allows you to avoid beam mix ups if you jump over the beams and even gives you frame advantage against moves like Helm Breaker.

Of course at really, really high level you chicken block less because people can plink dash below you, clip you with a low during the jump frames and anti air you or air throw you but that's really high level... at beginner level chicken block is effective and it's important to know why its strong and why people do it before you learn to beat it.
 

Shouta

Member
What the hell is chicken blocking??

Someone will correct me but Chicken block = jump block, especially in response to a ground game. You only have to hold back instead of guessing with the downback to block something in Marvel. It reduces the need for you to guess hence "chicken," i think.
 

kirblar

Member
I was actually teaching my little bro a bit of Smash recently. like explaining to him the important of punishing and not getting predictable. it's a decent game to learn some fundamentals like baiting/reads in because single hits can count a lot. for instance, I would get a knockdown on him, and then charged a forward smash in anticipation of his tech roll toward me--he got the idea and managed to apply it in other situations. Unfortunately he's a total CoD kid and I haven't been able to seriously break him into fighting games for real haha
Step 1: Grab Da Hammer
Step 2: Don't Fall Off
Step 3: PROFIT!
 
Ever since SF4, people have been allowing DLC/console characters for tourneys, before then, no.

But Kliff and Justice weren't exactly balanced either, so that's part of the ban.

Since SF4, huh? What other games besides BB have console releases that have gotten new content before their arcade releases this(last) gen?

Because banning something just because someone else, across the world, willing chooses not to have match up experience against it is stupid.

Ok? I wouldn't expect someone going somewhere else to have any pull on forcing their rules on things. If internationals come to America, they play by whatever rules Americans play by.
 
The definition has changed a bit since the Alpha days, but in games with air blocking, you simply jump and block.
This can be used to approach your opponent "safely" through the air or to avoid your typical high/low/grab ground mix ups.

Since SF4, huh? What other games besides BB have console releases that have gotten new content before their arcade releases this(last) gen?
KoFXIII console had the DLC characters + Saiki and Billy before they released Climax in the arcades.
 
How beginner is this player? Even explaining guard types and that type of stuff won't work on the typical first time fighter player. People don't decide to start a fighter because of its awesome systems.

They want to do Spiderman's cool web move, or play as that crazy looking green beast guy, or repeat that cool combo they just saw the last guy do. Tips that focus that enthusiasm into actually learning while continuing to enjoy themselves are the way to go. The problem is to get GOOD, a grind is going to be involved and that's not always fun. Which is why most people are happy enough being "okay".

This right here is what they missed dearly in MvC3. IronMan, SpiderMan, and Thor should have been easier to play or at least easier to combo. It really sucks when your co-worker picks them on his team and tell him IronMan sucks and is slow and his combos are tricky or Spiderman has a bunch of SRK motions in his combos or Thor has some awkward movement. They eventually play and stick with Hulk, Sentinel, Nova or Wesker.
 

Clawww

Member
This right here is what they missed dearly in MvC3. IronMan, SpiderMan, and Thor should have been easier to play or at least easier to combo. It really sucks when your co-worker picks them on his team and tell him IronMan sucks and is slow and his combos are tricky or Spiderman has a bunch of SRK motions in his combos or Thor has some awkward movement. They eventually play and stick with Hulk, Sentinel, Nova or Wesker.

yea no kidding lol
 

notworksafe

Member
This right here is what they missed dearly in MvC3. IronMan, SpiderMan, and Thor should have been easier to play or at least easier to combo. It really sucks when your co-worker picks them on his team and tell him IronMan sucks and is slow and his combos are tricky or Spiderman has a bunch of SRK motions in his combos or Thor has some awkward movement. They eventually play and stick with Hulk, Sentinel, Nova or Wesker.

So many people sit down and try to play Spiderman or someone in the Avengers movies and I just have to hold my tongue. Those definitely should have been the most forward facing, easier characters.
 
A bit off-topic, but I wanted to say goodbye to everyone here.
I leave to do my army service in a few hours and internet access will be limited.
These threads were pretty much the only ones I semi-consistently posted on neogaf and posts by members here are what led me to the forum in the first place.

I hope the rest of 2014 is filled with good news for fighting games and even better events.
And less shitty reboots of video game series nobody wanted.

Have fun you all.

Farewell, and keep safe.

Well I mean, it's not like a Down, Forward input won't work if you hit Down-Forward in between, so functionally it can be exactly like Street Fighters inputs, only with no charges on Back Forward moves (speaking from 9, maybe previous games had dumb inputs)

The major exception being the Down, Forward, Back or Down, Back, Forward inputs for command throws in Injustice and some moves in MK9.

There's also the fact that in Injustice to do attacks with different variations (screen position close/medium/far or projectile speed slow/medium/fast) you input the move, then hold a direction on the stick during the move's startup to define which version you want.

Does anyone legit have a problem with that? Or have a problem with the philosophy of using the same button, but different inputs for variations of moves (D,F for Grappling Hook, D,B for upward Grappling Hook, etc.) instead of the other way around?

Using different inputs for variations of moves isn't a huge leap in logic. It's basically a universal version of what some characters end up with, where individual moves are basically the same move, but at different angles. Holding the stick always seemed a little off to me, but only because I get anxious trying to figure out how to get back to neutral - it's like being conscious of the move after the input messes with my head. That's probably easy to overcome with muscle memory, though.

And here's another question regarding how NRS does things: Not having a special strength for every attack strength (LP HP or L M H). Do you think this is okay?

I think it's fine. Considering how many double- and triple-button presses are involved in moves like throws, clashes and supers, it'd be nuts if they stuck with pairing move strength/speed to attack buttons - the buffering shenanigans would be ridiculous, they'd be stuck patching stuff every week. It's a simple solution that fits what NRS was going for.

Does Ryu really NEED 3 Hadokens?

Well, Ryu needed it in SFII. His Hadoken wasn't as wide as it is now, and with the size of the characters and the screen, you'd have to throw out a specific strength depending on where the opponent was and what they were going to do. Even the Strong version of it had its uses, supposedly.

Now? Maybe not. But Capcom seems pretty comfortable with the set-up they have now. They have a light and somewhat safe version of a special move, a strong-but-risky version, and a version somewhere in-between the two in terms of speed and strength with a handful of weird properties. And then they fudge things a bit and all that goes out the window.
I suppose that they could just make one solid version of some moves with some of the best qualities and some of the worst ones, but then they wouldn't have the other versions to fall back on for balancing.
 

Jazz-ism

Banned
how about new berserk chapters instead.

this post hit me in my chest :(

What the hell is chicken blocking??

...


You forget that Ultimate Marvel started with the BS of Wesker being better than Zero because no one can lighting loop consistently. Mihe was amazing because he was the only one who could do it.


And then people learned Zero.

which is why that argument was completely stupid at the time and people who back it up/opposed it SOLELY on the basis of "is it winning right now?" look hella dumb now


when will the FGC start to stop acknowledging Eventhubs

the sooner we make the decision collectively to stop using and linking that website the better off everyone will be i think...
 

Jazz-ism

Banned
Sorry, I'm not a Marvel guy. Game is too hectic for me.

chicken blocking is a term/technique that predates marvel, hence the ellipses

no biggie we all ignorant in some ways. just surprising (and not surprising at the same time i suppose) to see top players not knowing things like that

i feel you on marvel too haha. though, i like the game, I just would rather play a good anime game if i am going to play one. If marvel got support from its dev it would prob be one of the best games of the decade but now we will never know. thanks capcom
 

Dahbomb

Member
I didn't know about chicken blocking until I played MVC1/MVC2. Certainly you can't use chicken blocking in MK, SF and Tekken games which was most of my fighting game experience back then.
 

Jazz-ism

Banned
someone look it up using bing.com but iirc, chicken blocking as a term started with vampire savior

edit: alpha series. yes indeed
 
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